Redline 5w50

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by Lone Star M3

Are you still running the 10w/60 in your E92?

yes....
I don't run the M3 in winter

[Lone Star M3]

Originally Posted by 330indy

yes....
I don't run the M3 in winter

Thanks for the reply!

[admranger]

Originally Posted by 330indy

yes....
I don't run the M3 in winter

How low temp do you go w/the 10w-60? Tires are my limiting factor here. When it's below 40 deg F, the RE-11's aren't happy at all...fwiw, I'm on factory 10w-60 but I've used a lot of Redline in my racing days. Multiple cases arriving every fall/winter when a supplier had his sale.

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by admranger

How low temp do you go w/the 10w-60? Tires are my limiting factor here. When it's below 40 deg F, the RE-11's aren't happy at all...fwiw, I'm on factory 10w-60 but I've used a lot of Redline in my racing days. Multiple cases arriving every fall/winter when a supplier had his sale.

40-45 degrees. Below that summer tires can get squirrelly ... But I hope to get more driving in this Fall. Come on El Niño !

[Hujan]

Bump on this thread. Been reading a lot about Redline oils lately and really liking what I'm seeing.

From the specs, I'd wager RL 5w40 gives you nearly the same protection as Castrol TWS at very high temps (HTHS of 4.4 for RL versus an estimated 4.5 for TWS), but dramatically more cold flow, as the viscosity of RL 5w40 is in the 90s at 40C versus 160 for TWS. Also, the RL has a lot more moly and even a little more zinc and phosphorus.

I'm really considering running Redline 5w40. Even their 0w40 looks stellar and a better (though more expensive) alternative to Mobil 1 0w40.

[ASW338]

TWS = 5.2 hths

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by ASW338

TWS = 5.2 hths

A lot of people say it sheers down quickly to a heavy 50 weight and an HTHS of ~4.5, and remains stable at that value for that oil interval.

[Hujan]

Any feedback or UOAs from the Redline people?

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Any feedback or UOAs from the Redline people?

I'll have one for you in a few weeks. Curious myself....

[dparm]

Kinematic viscosity values at those two temperatures aren't terribly indicative of "cold flow". You need to look at the MRV and CCS values for that. Also, viscosity index is an indirect way of looking at low temp behavior.

Call Red Line and ask them if the 5w50 has any VIIs (viscosity index improvers). I suspect it does.

Originally Posted by Hujan

Bump on this thread. Been reading a lot about Redline oils lately and really liking what I'm seeing.

From the specs, I'd wager RL 5w40 gives you nearly the same protection as Castrol TWS at very high temps (HTHS of 4.4 for RL versus an estimated 4.5 for TWS), but dramatically more cold flow, as the viscosity of RL 5w40 is in the 90s at 40C versus 160 for TWS. Also, the RL has a lot more moly and even a little more zinc and phosphorus.

I'm really considering running Redline 5w40. Even their 0w40 looks stellar and a better (though more expensive) alternative to Mobil 1 0w40.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by dparm

Kinematic viscosity values at those two temperatures aren't terribly indicative of "cold flow". You need to look at the MRV and CCS values for that. Also, viscosity index is an indirect way of looking at low temp behavior.

Call Red Line and ask them if the 5w50 has any VIIs (viscosity index improvers). I suspect it does.

I was told you can enter the KV at 40 C and 100 C into a calculator to estimate cold flow. I fear this is the best we're going to get as I don't see MRV or CCS values for Redline oils:

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=135&pcid=21

Also, what is the significance of the fact that Redline and Motul use the ASTM D4741 standard to assess HTHS and Mobil 1 uses ASTM D4683. Perhaps not coincidentally, Redline and Motul report significantly higher HTHS values for oils of comparable weights than Mobil 1. Redline 5w50 is 5.0 whereas Mobil 1 5w50 is just 4.4.

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I was told you can enter the KV at 40 C and 100 C into a calculator to estimate cold flow. I fear this is the best we're going to get as I don't see MRV or CCS values for Redline oils:

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=135&pcid=21

Also, what is the significance of the fact that Redline and Motul use the ASTM D4741 standard to assess HTHS and Mobil 1 uses ASTM D4683. Perhaps not coincidentally, Redline and Motul report significantly higher HTHS values for oils of comparable weights than Mobil 1. Redline 5w50 is 5.0 whereas Mobil 1 5w50 is just 4.4.

Group III hydro cracked Dino oils have a large percentage of VIIs --- especially M1 0w40
Group V motor oils by the nature of being mostly polyol-ester based, do not.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I was told you can enter the KV at 40 C and 100 C into a calculator to estimate cold flow. I fear this is the best we're going to get as I don't see MRV or CCS values for Redline oils:

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=135&pcid=21

Also, what is the significance of the fact that Redline and Motul use the ASTM D4741 standard to assess HTHS and Mobil 1 uses ASTM D4683. Perhaps not coincidentally, Redline and Motul report significantly higher HTHS values for oils of comparable weights than Mobil 1. Redline 5w50 is 5.0 whereas Mobil 1 5w50 is just 4.4.

The viscosity at ultra-low temps is not that useful. The curves become quite inaccurate at extremely low values like that. It's also of limited use when comparing oils of different chemistry.

The pumpability values are more interesting. Look for "MRV" or "CCS" on a spec sheet. Note that they're measured differently for the 0w, 5w, 10w, etc. viscosities so you can't compare different oils (i.e. a 0w50 and 10w50 can't be compared, but a 0w40 and 0w30 can be).

As to the two ASTM methods for measuring HTHSV, this was debated at BITOG and I believe the conclusion was that it's inconsequential -- the values can be directly compared regardless of which method was used.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Group III hydro cracked Dino oils have a large percentage of VIIs --- especially M1 0w40
Group V motor oils by the nature of being mostly polyol-ester based, do not.

That distinction is becoming less and less clear-cut.

Newer group III (sometimes called III+) like Exxon's VISOM have a fairly high native VI. Don't forget that a predominantly group III oil still contains some group IV and V anyway. Now we have Shell GTL which blurs the lines even further. VIIs are not necessarily a bad thing.

If in doubt, look for the manufacturer and/or ACEA approvals. There are limits as to how far oils are allowed to shear under operation.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by dparm

The viscosity at ultra-low temps is not that useful. The curves become quite inaccurate at extremely low values like that. It's also of limited use when comparing oils of different chemistry.

The pumpability values are more interesting. Look for "MRV" or "CCS" on a spec sheet. Note that they're measured differently for the 0w, 5w, 10w, etc. viscosities so you can't compare different oils (i.e. a 0w50 and 10w50 can't be compared, but a 0w40 and 0w30 can be).

As to the two ASTM methods for measuring HTHSV, this was debated at BITOG and I believe the conclusion was that it's inconsequential -- the values can be directly compared regardless of which method was used.

Glad to hear the HTHS on the Redline and Motul oils can be taken seriously.

Regarding cold pumpability, as I mentioned, I don't see either value you mention on the Redline or Motul spec sheets.

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by dparm

That distinction is becoming less and less clear-cut.

Newer group III (sometimes called III+) like Exxon's VISOM have a fairly high native VI. Don't forget that a predominantly group III oil still contains some group IV and V anyway. Now we have Shell GTL which blurs the lines even further. VIIs are not necessarily a bad thing.

If in doubt, look for the manufacturer and/or ACEA approvals. There are limits as to how far oils are allowed to shear under operation.

Care to share your factual information on Group III oils containing polyol ester and PAO (polyalphaolefin) ??

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Glad to hear the HTHS on the Redline and Motul oils can be taken seriously.

Regarding cold pumpability, as I mentioned, I don't see either value you mention on the Redline or Motul spec sheets.

It's on the Red Line 5w50 product page, though they phrase it differently:

CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C 60@-30

[dparm]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Care to share your factual information on Group III oils containing polyol ester and PAO (polyalphaolefin) ??

Sorry, what I meant to say is that off-the-shelf oils that are "predominantly group III" contain small amounts of group IV and group V.

You can typically see this if you pull up the MSDS, though it's not always disclosed (since the law doesn't directly mandate it).

[Leonardo629]

Mobil's latest MSDS does not indicate PAO nor ester, but back in July last year, PAO and ester were both mentioned.

Why wouldn't Mobil use PAO and ester in their lubricant? They have a huge portfolio of them for all sorts of applications. I'm not saying all Mobil engine contains the "goodies", but M1 0W40 should still contain the stuff.

http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Ch...oductsservices

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

Mobil's latest MSDS does not indicate PAO nor ester, but back in July last year, PAO and ester were both mentioned.

Why wouldn't Mobil use PAO and ester in their lubricant? They have a huge portfolio of them for all sorts of applications. I'm not saying all Mobil engine contains the "goodies", but M1 0W40 should still contain the stuff.

http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Ch...oductsservices

Actually, I believe M1 used alkylated naphthalene (a group V). Not sure what the latest formulations include.

[admranger]

In 2016 they are "Safety Data Sheets" (SDS). MSDS is an outdated term. Part of an international standard being put in place for chemicals, complete with new symbology.

Back on topic, the 5w-50 redline is intriguing. When I raced I used Redline oils exclusively. My engine ran hot (real hot) and Redline seemed to handle things well. However, when I took the valve cover off it was really ugly black in there... Could have been from the previous owner, but it wasn't pretty so keep an eye on that and see if it happens to you.

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by admranger

In 2016 they are "Safety Data Sheets" (SDS). MSDS is an outdated term. Part of an international standard being put in place for chemicals, complete with new symbology.

Back on topic, the 5w-50 redline is intriguing. When I raced I used Redline oils exclusively. My engine ran hot (real hot) and Redline seemed to handle things well. However, when I took the valve cover off it was really ugly black in there... Could have been from the previous owner, but it wasn't pretty so keep an eye on that and see if it happens to you.

You're referring to the Redline cleaning out the gunk that was in there, discussed at BITOG.