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[Adonislike]

Originally Posted by MrHarris

Waiting on insurance to see if it's totaled for sure. I'll decide then if it is. To everyone who's getting worked up over the PS2's not doing so well in the cold, ultimately it's the drivers fault (me) and I should've known not to push the car like I normally do when it's a bit warmer. I made this thread because I felt the PS2's lacked a bit when just starting a commute. I appreciate all the feedback, and was just curious if anyone else noticed it (could be just me). Anyways, I probably will be taking some driver courses and be more careful the next time I turn off DSC completely. Sadly I learned the hard way this time.

Damn that sux. I hope you end up getting another one.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by J08M3

But on dry or wet streets there should be no problem with PS2s all winter.

Wrong. How many times must it be repeated for people to get it? PS2 is NOT a tire that has good grip 40 and below - DSC on or off. Keep at it though...

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Wrong. How many times must it be repeated for people to get it? PS2 is NOT a tire that has good grip 40 and below - DSC on or off. Keep at it though...

If it's wrong tell me why my car hasn't slipped off the road?

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by J08M3

If it's wrong tell me why my car hasn't slipped off the road?

Luck - trust me it's not driving skill. See my prior posts on this. As I said, keep at it, but don't be surprised if one day they back should shudder...It may be the roads you are on are OK, etc. But you're gambling and perhaps thinking it's down to driving skill. It's not.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Luck - trust me it's not driving skill. See my prior posts on this. As I said, keep at it, but don't be surprised if one day they back should shudder...It may be the roads you are on are OK, etc. But you're gambling and perhaps thinking it's down to driving skill. It's not.

Uh huh.... I must have some pretty damn good luck then to have driven all winter so far and been able to stay on the road.

If you're not speeding there's no way you're going to slide off public roads, unless you hit ice or snow. So I guess you're right in the fact that it doesn't take skill. It just takes a little brains and common sense to not drive like an idiot.

Granted there are much better tires for cold weather driving. But the posts on here act as if you're driving on ice with PS2s in the cold and only luck can keep you on the road, both of which are far from true.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by J08M3

Uh huh.... I must have some pretty damn good luck then to have driven all winter so far and been able to stay on the road.

If you're not speeding there's no way you're going to slide off public roads, unless you hit ice or snow. So I guess you're right in the fact that it doesn't take skill. It just takes a little brains and common sense to not drive like an idiot.

Granted there are much better tires for cold weather driving. But the posts on here act as if you're driving on ice with PS2s in the cold and only luck can keep you on the road, both of which are far from true.

Also far from true and an exaggeration is you saying "there's no way"...There are many ways. Your commute, roads, etc. may lend to easier driving in colder dry temps for the PS2s. That doesn't mean anything for other drivers however. The fact remains that the PS2 is crap in cold weather and a gamble - wet or dry. It's rock hard, it doesn't heat up, etc. Go the speed limit, hit a pothole or something, and you'll see what may happen. Go the speed limit, have to make an emergency maneuver, and you'll see what may happen. I could go on. There are too many cases to even list. Tired of explaining common sense. Some people will just learn at their own expense it seems. Nothing new. Everyone here is an expert in tire technology and in driving though...

[FStop7]

PS2s are fine in temps under 40, you just have to take extra care with them until they're warmed up.

[doba_s]

sorry about your car man, but the first thing about M cars is you need to learn how to drive them. It is not the tires, it is the driver ... I drove many cars which didn't have DSC and with the shitty tires on the snow or ice and never crashed one ... I hope you are ok !

[MrHarris]

thanks doba, hope my insurance doesn't get hiked up too much.

[spyderco10]

sometimes it gets pretty cold, into the upper 60's and they still grip pretty good

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Everyone here is an expert in tire technology and in driving though...

Apparently

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by J08M3

Apparently

It was called sarcasm. I find it funny like the guy above saying they are fine until you heat them up. Why? Because you can't heat them up under 40 unless you drive around the block and brake like a maniac, which you can't do...If you don't know why, you don't understand, as I implied. I find it hilarious when I see people in their street cars weaving back and forth apparently thinking they are putting heat in their tires like in formula cars they watch on TV. Clueless...

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by doba_s

sorry about your car man, but the first thing about M cars is you need to learn how to drive them. It is not the tires, it is the driver ... I drove many cars which didn't have DSC and with the shitty tires on the snow or ice and never crashed one ... I hope you are ok !

In this case it may have been the driver, since we know he had DSC OFF and don't know the exact details. But to say that you can drive on snow and ice with these tires is downright stupid. Also there is nothing special about learning to drive an "M" car. It's just a car. A very nice car, but just a street car. It's also a very forgiving car at that by design. It's a street car - it breaks traction in a very slow and predictable/progressive way. Sure it has a lot of power, but the torque is manageable and it's very easy to be smooth with it. Look, I drive with MDM and DSC OFF 100% of the time. I'm used to it from my racing days in Formula Ford and after. Those are hard cars to drive, very unforgiving, and very unpredictable when breaking traction. Street cars are nothing in comparison. And you're also driving SO much slower in them. And I'm the first to realize and admit that summer performance tires are utter crap in the very cold & dry/wet and snow/ice. I can screw around in them for fun and giggles in empty spaces, but not drive them on streets w/o knowing that I'm gambling. You cannot defeat the laws of friction and physics all the time, not matter how good a driver you think you are. And most people think they are a whole lot better than they actually are. I have seen too many cases at DE events. In all sorts of cars. It's easy to be aggressive on the street, think you have great control and fast reflexes, etc., but not so easy to drive flat out on a track - never mind racing with others. Come try an open wheel car around a track, then you'll understand and be a bit more humble..

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by urbo73

It was called sarcasm. I find it funny like the guy above saying they are fine until you heat them up. Why? Because you can't heat them up under 40 unless you drive around the block and brake like a maniac, which you can't do...If you don't know why, you don't understand, as I implied. I find it hilarious when I see people in their street cars weaving back and forth apparently thinking they are putting heat in their tires like in formula cars they watch on TV. Clueless...

Agreed, and sarcasm was with my last remark too.

[elm3]

Like with any High Performance Tires, you should get them warmed up before doing any high spirited driving. They are soft compound tires and require some heat for the ruber to stick. I have a 2004 Yamaha R1 and the tires are soft compound and of the same compound of that on the M3, it will take me a few minutes to get them warm, I ride my bike at 30 deg. and after being warmed, they will stick.

[doba_s]

Originally Posted by urbo73

In this case it may have been the driver, since we know he had DSC OFF and don't know the exact details. But to say that you can drive on snow and ice with these tires is downright stupid. Also there is nothing special about learning to drive an "M" car. It's just a car. A very nice car, but just a street car. It's also a very forgiving car at that by design. It's a street car - it breaks traction in a very slow and predictable/progressive way. Sure it has a lot of power, but the torque is manageable and it's very easy to be smooth with it. Look, I drive with MDM and DSC OFF 100% of the time. I'm used to it from my racing days in Formula Ford and after. Those are hard cars to drive, very unforgiving, and very unpredictable when breaking traction. Street cars are nothing in comparison. And you're also driving SO much slower in them. And I'm the first to realize and admit that summer performance tires are utter crap in the very cold & dry/wet and snow/ice. I can screw around in them for fun and giggles in empty spaces, but not drive them on streets w/o knowing that I'm gambling. You cannot defeat the laws of friction and physics all the time, not matter how good a driver you think you are. And most people think they are a whole lot better than they actually are. I have seen too many cases at DE events. In all sorts of cars. It's easy to be aggressive on the street, think you have great control and fast reflexes, etc., but not so easy to drive flat out on a track - never mind racing with others. Come try an open wheel car around a track, then you'll understand and be a bit more humble..

I agree with you, but I never said that I drove on PS2s on the snow or ice. My point is that you can't blame tires for what happened ...

[spyderco10]

Originally Posted by elm3

Like with any High Performance Tires, you should get them warmed up before doing any high spirited driving. They are soft compound tires and require some heat for the ruber to stick. I have a 2004 Yamaha R1 and the tires are soft compound and of the same compound of that on the M3, it will take me a few minutes to get them warm, I ride my bike at 30 deg. and after being warmed, they will stick.

I ride an '04 GSX-R750, the coldest it gets here is like 60's, and that's cold for me!

[ben@tirerack]

Condolences to MrHarris on the accident. The PS2's are definitely dicey on cold roads. These tires should not be used below 40 degrees if you can help it. Even a moment of inattention or injudicious throttle application *could* lead to an accident, because the tires have very little safety margin in cold weather. One of the most talented drivers I know totaled his car on PS2's in North Carolina. There was a little patch of snow and he happened to hit it while turning. At that point, he was just along for the ride.

So for those who are driving your PS2's in the winter and surviving, congratulations on your good fortune and careful driving, but be aware that you have a very slim margin for error. It is like walking a tightrope everyday when there is a bridge available.

[VMRWheels]

I recently tracked with a E60 on PS2's, in 35 degree weather and can definitely attest to Ben's remarks. It took a good 3-4 warm up laps and even so the tires never really got sticky enough to push the car at its limits. Only when the weather warm up to 45 degrees (with warm up laps) did the PS2's start sticking. In 45 degree weather I doubt that the PS2's would ever warm up to its full potential on the streets. Summer tires sure do feel like ice skates in the winter. So sorry to hear about your loss, hope insurance takes care of you.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by ben@tirerack

Condolences to MrHarris on the accident. The PS2's are definitely dicey on cold roads. These tires should not be used below 40 degrees if you can help it. Even a moment of inattention or injudicious throttle application *could* lead to an accident, because the tires have very little safety margin in cold weather. One of the most talented drivers I know totaled his car on PS2's in North Carolina. There was a little patch of snow and he happened to hit it while turning. At that point, he was just along for the ride.

So for those who are driving your PS2's in the winter and surviving, congratulations on your good fortune and careful driving, but be aware that you have a very slim margin for error. It is like walking a tightrope everyday when there is a bridge available.

Amazing how some still don't get it!

Another thing that has not been mentioned is that braking distance is increased a lot..It's not just wheels slipping people, it's braking distance too. When you lose grip that goes up..

[PunjabiM3]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Amazing how some still don't get it!

Another thing that has not been mentioned is that braking distance is increased a lot..It's not just wheels slipping people, it's braking distance too. When you lose grip that goes up..

Oh I think pretty much everyone gets it. PS2 under 40 degree weather = drive extremely carefully. Obviously if there is any snow falling or on the ground DO NOT drive the car with summer tires. But if it is dry out then the PS2 or summer tires pose little problems unless you have a lead foot. I drove this morning to work (about 1.5 miles) in fog with temps at 33. I did not experience any problems at all with the PS2 but I did drive like a grandma.

[attila]

What would you guys suggest as performance winter tire for the M3?