RS4 beats new M3 in Autoexpress Test

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by lucid

Dude, how deep of a hole do you want to dig yourself here exactly before letting go? Don't you see that you've pretty much alienated just about everyone around? Or, are you some kind of automated reply algorithm?

I don't care that he is aleinating himself, I want reasons for his opinions. He spouts of statistics, yet doesn't back them with a logical argument. He doesnt recognize ALL aspects that makes up a car performance and just centers on what "reviewers" had issues with on a test drive of the new M3.

Yet, he himself isn't speaking from experience. Where do you track your car... perhaps manyh of us have seen or met you previously. Are you a member of the SCCA or any autocross org..? What driving schools have you been through, etc..?

I don't much recognize your opinion, because it not backed by a logical debate. You spew banter





-Garrett

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

Read what I said again: that I did plenty of driving, and that I am better than the average guy.

I don't know of any track rat who goes around saying he/she is better than the average guy. You must have mad skillz my man!
Tell us what class do you race/autocross in? How do you set up your RS4 for the track?

Or are you saying you are "better than the average guy" on the street?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Garrett

I don't care that he is aleinating himself, I want reasons for his opinions. He spouts of statistics, yet doesn't back them with a logical argument. He doesnt recognize ALL aspects that makes up a car performance and just centers on what "reviewers" had issues with on a test drive of the new M3.

Yet, he himself isn't speaking from experience. Where do you track your car... perhaps manyh of us have seen or met you previously. Are you a member of the SCCA or any autocross org..? What driving schools have you been through, etc..?

I don't much recognize your opinion, because it not backed by a logical debate. You spew banter

-Garrett

Well, this seems to be a rather common pattern these days. Someone starts a relevant discussion, but we eventually run out of things to discuss because the car's not out and there is not much information to pass along. Then someone makes a legitimate comparison to the RS4, which attracts the interest of some RS4 owners or fans who register just to troll and inflame the discussion, and turn it into a pissing war, which consequently kills the thread…

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

Just get your knowledge improved on "average", and you will see there are many people better than average. Not just one, not one single guy who is the best. Unfortunately I don't have mad skills

Fair enough. You are better than the average guy. AWESOME. But you have ignored my question about which class you race/autocross in. Since you are so clear on where you stand in comparison to the average guy, why not provide a link to your race/autocross results?

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by ILC32

Fair enough. You are better than the average guy. AWESOME. But you have ignored my question about which class you race/autocross in. Since you are so clear on where you stand in comparison to the average guy, why not provide a link to your race/autocross results?

<crickets>

[M3onTwomps]

Originally Posted by moss

can't really see if your driving a 99 e36, you're in much of a position to be calling an RS4 crap????????????????????????????????????????????

Are you calling the E36 M3 crap?

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by ILC32

Fair enough. You are better than the average guy. AWESOME. But you have ignored my question about which class you race/autocross in. Since you are so clear on where you stand in comparison to the average guy, why not provide a link to your race/autocross results?

Mintinasi has been replying every two minutes, but now silence?

Searching the web for some results to link to, eh?

[M3onTwomps]

Poor kid.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

Because we do not have any statistics right now, do we? We only have reviews for now, Garrett. I was providing arguments, not statistics. What and who said anything about statistics.
Or we could consider statistics the fact that so many reviews have a few common problems? Like trans, steering, brakes? Heavy car? Under expectations? And so on?
I base my opinion because I did not get a chance to drive the new M3 yet. Did you? Do you guys speak from anything else but reviews? We speak about the M3 having the same informations, or if you guys know more, please provide me with a link or two.
My opinion is only backed by reviews, are yours backed by anything else? Again, how many here test drove the car? One full day at the track? Cause I have to admit, I did not drive it yet. Did you Garrett ?

Exactly, take your own advice....


Your banter is based on your OPINION. Your lack of logical debate suggest your opinion isn't backed by much personal knowledge. Since the M3 isn't released yet and all we are left with is reading between the lines on 4 or 5 reviews we have to draw conclusions from those articles.

Your conclusions are that the M3 is horrible and in no way compatable or even competitive with your Audi RS4..! But the simnple fact of the matter is the 335i is already very close to the RS4 and the ultimatly, the sheer performance of the new M3 is NOT in question by the reviewers.

The problem the reviewers had with the new BMW M3 was the "level" (ie tunning) of the brakes and steering. Not the car. If you track or race your car you will undoubtedly know these are nothing more than superficial things that can be adjusted vie software or low leved disign adjustment to get the proper "iconic" response.

Several reviews "felt" there was brake fade, yet non could provide proof, they simply states that the brakes seemed (felt) to get mushier, yet the car was actually still braking good. This probably has alot to do with the new brakes on the way the software controls them.

Same with steering. Here: CLICK HERE look at page #33 under Servoronic. It is possible that many of the reviewers where in the right mode for their style of driving. And if they were and it wasn't enough... it can be diled in even more by software...!





-Garrett

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

For the same reason I did not put my full name as a username. Just like everybody else. You never know who is crazy enough to shoot you because you don't agree with him. Just like the guy who called me an idiot without me saying any single words about him, or should I use his words: mindless simpleton? We should probably go back on cars, I got here to talk about how much better is the RS4 compared to the M3 not how much better am I compared to what ever other unknown guy from this forum.

Yeah, sure. If you're going to brag about your driving, you better be able to back it up.

You are a street warrior who thinks it takes skill to stomp on the accellerator harder than the kid in the Civic next to you.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

I should go back in my own imaginary world in a few minutes.

I bet you are a REALLY GOOD DRIVER in your imaginary world!

Guys, I think Mintenasi is really Hans Stuck! He just does not want some internet stalker to track him down!

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

I just don't eat anything a few days before track, that way I save a few pounds out of my whale

What tracks do you drive my man?

[M3shogun]

Originally Posted by ILC32

What tracks do you drive my man?

exactly but hes prolly not gonna answer.

[M3onTwomps]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Exactly, take your own advice....


Your banter is based on your OPINION. Your lack of logical debate suggest your opinion isn't backed by much personal knowledge. Since the M3 isn't released yet and all we are left with is reading between the lines on 4 or 5 reviews we have to draw conclusions from those articles.

Your conclusions are that the M3 is horrible and in no way compatable or even competitive with your Audi RS4..! But the simnple fact of the matter is the 335i is already very close to the RS4 and the ultimatly, the sheer performance of the new M3 is NOT in question by the reviewers.

The problem the reviewers had with the new BMW M3 was the "level" (ie tunning) of the brakes and steering. Not the car. If you track or race your car you will undoubtedly know these are nothing more than superficial things that can be adjusted vie software or low leved disign adjustment to get the proper "iconic" response.

Several reviews "felt" there was brake fade, yet non could provide proof, they simply states that the brakes seemed (felt) to get mushier, yet the car was actually still braking good. This probably has alot to do with the new brakes on the way the software controls them.

Same with steering. Here: CLICK HERE look at page #33 under Servoronic. It is possible that many of the reviewers where in the right mode for their style of driving. And if they were and it wasn't enough... it can be diled in even more by software...!





-Garrett

Are you saying the steering could possibly be adjusted with a software tune? That would be sweet.

[M3onTwomps]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

You know what? The average guy has to pee from time to time. I might not be just he average, but I still have to do it sometimes
Besides, I had some time to spend doing nothing for the last 2 hours, I should go back in my own imaginary world in a few minutes. Anything else to throw on me?
And you still didn't answer to my "smart" posts, where I provided a few reviews, which I know you read, but I had to remind you about how the M3 lacks steering, brakes, handling, and so on. Lacks compared to the "king M3", looks like the king is dead.

Where did anyone say the M3 lacks handling?

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

Did I say anything like that? You are reading between lines, but you are not understanding what you're reading. I do not think the M3 it's "not competitive, not comparable" to the RS4. You are just lost here, I think the M3 is a great great car, probably a little better than the RS4 on different situations. I always said that. I also feel (same like everybody else, although they don't admit it) the new M3 is not enough, it should be better, but it's not! I compared the M3 to the "king M3", the real car you will be able to buy won't be the king anymore. But that doesn't state anywhere the car won't be just a great great car, does it? Don't be a smart ass trying to say something I never did. You guys can hate me or not, I don't really care, but I am not here to make a war, I am here to state my opinion and that's it. You don't like me, tell the admin to ban me and you're done.

About the steering and so on .. I find it really nice you are willing to adjust anything, the way you like it. I like moding, but I also think there are quite a few guys who will just buy the car. You should know that. The only moding they do is to pick the color at the dealership. The problem is we don't talk about things like that, we are comparing factory standard M3 to the original RS4.

Once again, I do not think the RS4 is by any way NET SUPERIOR. Nor the M3. Nor the C63 AMG. I was expecting the M3 to be like that, but it's not.

Partially understood/agree

Yet, the adjustment I am talking about isn't modding of the car, it's is threw ride controls within the standard featurers offered in the new M3.

The "tuning" I am suggesting is that BMW is still tracking and test driving their M3 because it is not finished yet. They still have time to make some minor adjustments in software and certain other areas before the actual car goes into production.

Things like mushy brake feel and steering can and will most likely be adjusted before release. The notchyness of the new shifter might need a little more work but certainly not insurmountable.

Your basically backpedaling out of your original argument which hold less weight because the things your suggesting that make the new M3 horrible are superficial. BMW did not engineer worse brakes for the new M3 than the previous, so obvously the reviewers ddidn't like the feedback the felt through their foot. To much software interaction/interference... and if thats the case BMW will dial back the amount their software interviens and allows the driver to modulate more..etc.

We will see. But your increadibly ignorant if you don't think BMW hosted Press day and let all those Magezines and Orgs test drive and review the BMW M3 without taking close notice to their likes and dislikes. It the exact reason they did this....! So they can make subtle changes before the car goes into production.





-Garrett

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by M3onTwomps

Are you saying the steering could possibly be adjusted with a software tune? That would be sweet.

Yes, the feedback can. They just dial in less power steering and ratio...etc.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by ILC32

What tracks do you drive my man?

Come on man, admit it - the only tracks you have driven on are the ones you finally unlocked in GT4! Did you get your Class B license yet? ROFLMAO

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Yes, the feedback can. They just dial in less power steering and ratio...etc.

Agreed that they can change a lot in the software, but some of this stuff would hinge on the design of the mechanical system as well.

[jworms]

Originally Posted by mintenasi

Can I get the numbers for 1/4mile and 0-200km/h that you, the smart guy, know them?

Make sure you provide accurate numbers, from more than one single review, with some links. Please illuminate me!

my pleasure.

rs4 0-200 km/h:
16.6 seconds ( http://www.audiusa.com/audi/us/en2/n...rformance.html )
16.9 seconds ( http://www.eurocarblog.com/post/238/audi-rs4-cabrio/ )
16.6 seconds ( http://www.justsupercars.com/cars/audi/rs4 )
16.6 seconds ( http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/cc/07rs4.htm )

rs4 1/4 mile:
13.2 @ 106.8 ( http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...9/pageNumber=4 )

- in that article they actually weighed the RS4 and it came out to 3981lbs as tested

13.2@109mph ( http://www.dragtimes.com/Audi-RS-4-Timeslip-9478.html )
13.0@102mph ( http://www.dragtimes.com/Audi-RS-4-Timeslip-9260.html )

btw it's fairly entertaining that in my research i noticed a few reviews that mentioned the lack of feeling from the rs4's steering. irony at its best, eh?




the e92 M3 numbers are not as plentiful at this point for obvious reasons
e92 M3:
1/4 mile (with crappy conditions as stated in the article):
12.9@111mph ( http://www.caranddriver.com/previews...und-page2.html )

e92 M3 0-200km/h:
15.8 seconds (M3 brochure)

Originally Posted by mintenasi

Because we do not have any statistics right now, do we? We only have reviews for now, Garrett. I was providing arguments, not statistics. What and who said anything about statistics.
Or we could consider statistics the fact that so many reviews have a few common problems? Like trans, steering, brakes? Heavy car? Under expectations? And so on?
I base my opinion because I did not get a chance to drive the new M3 yet. Did you? Do you guys speak from anything else but reviews? We speak about the M3 having the same informations, or if you guys know more, please provide me with a link or two.
My opinion is only backed by reviews, are yours backed by anything else? Again, how many here test drove the car? One full day at the track? Cause I have to admit, I did not drive it yet. Did you Garrett ?

yeah, read my replies to find the statistics you claim do not exist. now where are yours to back your claims? oh right, you just admitted you have none.


what now?

[M3onTwomps]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Yes, the feedback can. They just dial in less power steering and ratio...etc.

That sounds promising. I'm hoping the major problem with the steering feel found in the reviews was that the "sport" steering setting was not in use. If not, hopefully BMW or someone else will come up with a solution to better the steering feel. It doesn't sound like the handling is hurt by this. It actuallys seems like the car handles very well. It's just the lack of confidence from the disconnected steering feel that is bothering some reviewers.

[The CSL]

The best solution they could use is drop bloody Servotronic and use a single ratio hydraulic system. All these faffing modern systems just don't live up to the old, simpler systems for things such as feel, weight and communication