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10-31-2009, 01:21 AM | #68 |
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10-31-2009, 12:37 PM | #69 | |
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That's a clip from you link So once again its Michael C. who is the winner of this competition since he is a registered contestant/non-professional driver. How many other drivers or teams got to bring in a pro driver to switch at a moments notice? Ohhhh wait pro drivers where not invited to this competition
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10-31-2009, 01:42 PM | #70 | |
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What incentive is there for any other manufacturer to respond? Little or none. GM shows up with at least a trailer full of cars with multiple transmission options, and you know they had their techies - perhaps Heinricy's shop - go over them with a fine tooth comb to make sure they are up to spec. Not to mention their 'ringers in reserve.' A single private M3 with a trained but unknown driver beats all of the amateurs in whatever they drive. Sounds good from the BMW perspective to me. Again, Caddy made their point - but I'd still like to see results with factory participation from BMW, and certainly Porsche. So you keep whining if you must. . . Have Fun, Rick
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10-31-2009, 02:16 PM | #71 |
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10-31-2009, 02:18 PM | #72 | |
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Are you going to totally ignore that there were 4 drivers in the CTS-V that were faster than the kid in the M3? Three of them aren't race car drivers. |
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10-31-2009, 02:55 PM | #73 | |
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10-31-2009, 05:02 PM | #74 | |
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Yes assuming there is a perfect pro driver in each car, the CTS-V is faster. But given that 99.99% of people are not pro drivers, that fact means pretty much nothing. If anything, the fact that a 21 year old kid in an M3 won this competition suggests that the M3 is the easier car to drive fast, which means a lot more in the real world than lap times set by pro drivers. |
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10-31-2009, 06:00 PM | #75 |
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I would have loved to shown up in an Olds 98 just for fun.
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10-31-2009, 07:46 PM | #76 |
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The other CTS-V drivers that were faster were development engineers, or who apparently did not take the wheel of the M3 to see if it was really slower/faster. Brian Redman is described as "grand marshal" of that track, and he co-designed it. He also has a professional racing career that isn't too shabby.
Another manufacturer would likely not seriously want to be part of a rival's promotional stunt. Even if the CTS-V lost to a BMW M or Mercedes AMG product, the difference would not be so huge as to relegate the car to POS status; it would legitimize the CTS-V as a serious player in this category. The fact that Bill Auberlen was so close last year in an M5, a vehicle he hadn't driven in many years, at this same track against Heinricy who developed the CTS-V tells us a BMW engineer/racer should be just as fast or faster in an M3. |
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10-31-2009, 07:55 PM | #77 | |
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So if we get the top ///M hot shoe, another BMW engineer, and, say Hans Stuck - who was competitively driving at about the same time as Brian Redman - and match them up with the CTS-V crowd above, it might be more definitive. Until then, the Caddy is in the same class, but no way superior. Period. Have Fun, Rick
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10-31-2009, 09:08 PM | #78 | |
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11-01-2009, 01:32 AM | #79 | ||
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11-01-2009, 01:35 AM | #80 |
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A good promo for GM and a cheap way to get publicity. That was the purpose and it worked. Hey, maybe they'll eventually pay back their taxpayer funded bailout money.
Other than sheer marketing smarts, it was meaningless. Lutz got just what he wanted out of the event--inexpensive and relevant marketing for his recently introduced 556-horsepower V8. "There's enormous attention being paid to this, and if you compare this cost-wise and effectiveness-wise to, say, making a bunch of TV commercials, this is a highly effective way to get the word out about how good the car is," Lutz said. "If we sell 50 or 100 of the CTS-V off this, we'd consider it a success." http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/29/gm-...utos-lutz.html |
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11-01-2009, 11:29 AM | #81 |
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I just don't understand how any of you guys can actually think that this proves the M3 is faster than (or even as fast as) the CTS-V. If anything, it proves that this 21 y/o "kid" is a very good driver and far above the skill level of the other supposed contestants so its no surprise that he won. He could have probably won with a range of differing cars in this competition, not just an M3. My guess is that if you had put him in a CTS-V he would have been considerably faster because guess what: The CTS-V is a faster car. Duh.
I wonder why no car mag or publication has done an M3/CTS-V comparison? Oh yeah, because it wouldn't be a fair comparison and the BMW would be much slower.... Oh and here's some more numbers for ya: CTS-V Nurburgring laptime - 7:59.32 M5 Nurburgring laptime - 8:13 M3 Nurburgring laptime - 8:15 http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car..._ring-car_news
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11-01-2009, 11:34 AM | #82 |
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Oh and btw, I'd still buy an M3 over a CTS-V!!!
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11-01-2009, 01:51 PM | #83 | |
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So far, Sport Auto have been 12-20 seconds slower in production-spec GM cars compared to the factory claims. They will likely not match the 7:59 time that Heinricy set. For all we know, BMW could be setting their 'Ring times like Porsche, with traffic during industry days. Other reasons why the M3 should be about as fast as the CTS-V: Randy Pobst in the CTS-V @ Laguna Seca ('08 Motor Trend) - 1:43.9 Randy Pobst in the M3 w/DKG @ Laguna Seca ('07 Motor Trend) - 1:42.964 C&D editors @ Laguna Seca in the M3 w/DKG - 1:43.9 Take a look at Car Magazine's results at Rockingham. Porsche Cayman S 1:37.07 Cadillac CTS-V 1:38.85 Audi S4 1:39.07 An M3 should be faster than a Cayman S. And faster than an S4 too, which competes with the 335i. The M3 has also been shown to be 3-5 seconds faster than the C63 in tests on both sides of the Atlantic, so for the M3 to be only 0.9s faster in the C&D Lightning Lap test highlights the problems they were having with the transmission. Also note the M5 vs CTS-V test in Road & Track. John Heinricy, who helped developed the CTS-V, was only 0.47s faster than an M5 driven by Bill Auberlen, who had not even driven the car. It's safe to say that a BMW racer and test driver who helped develop the M5 would be faster than Auberlen, and an M3 should be faster still in similar hands. Last edited by Guibo; 11-01-2009 at 02:34 PM.. |
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11-01-2009, 08:16 PM | #84 | |
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Do you have a link to the Cayman S lapping in 8:06? Randy Pobst in the Cayman S @ Laguna Seca - 1:43.0 So maybe the M3 is merely as fast as the Cayman S. |
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11-01-2009, 08:43 PM | #85 |
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It's hard for me to believe that BMW wouldn't send out a test driver in a M3 or M5 if they thought they could beat the time.
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11-02-2009, 11:55 AM | #86 | |
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Secondly, we don't know what their driver schedules are like. There could be a conflict in the schedules. That was a reason given as to why Jim Mero was chosen to drive the ZR1 for its fastest lap, and not a racer like Jan Magnussen (who is confident he can easily shave 7 seconds from Mero's time). The fact that BMW could have chosen Stuck or any number of development drivers to drive the M5, yet chose Auberlen who had never even driven the car, tells us how seriously they took the R&T challenge. In other words, not too seriously. Or, Stuck's schedule wouldn't allow it. |
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11-02-2009, 02:47 PM | #87 |
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Yeah adding on to that, even if the M3 and M5 could beat the Caddy it still wouldn't be in BMW's interest to participate because doing so acknowledges that the much cheaper CTS-V is on the same level as BMW's own cars. Not something BMW wants to do.
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11-05-2009, 11:53 AM | #88 |
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Here are the official results:
1. Cadillac CTS-V (John Heinricy): 2:46:560 2. Cadillac CTS-V (Brian Redman): 2:49:183 3. Cadillac CTS-V (Aaron Link): 2:48:902 4. BMW M3 (Michael Cooper): 2.50:424 5. Cadillac CTS-V (Jack Baruth): 2:51:153 6. Cadillac CTS-V (Lawrence Ulrich): 2:53:026 7. Cadillac CTS-V (Bob Lutz): 2:56:321 8. Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X (Wes Siler): 3:08.126 9. BMW M5 (Michael Mainwald): 3:08:989 10. Cadillac CTS-V (Chris Fairman.): 3:14:292 11. Audi RS4 (Tom Loder): 3:15:702 12. Jaguar XF (Archan Basu): 3:16.670 So to all those that say it took a professional driver to beat a privateer: where was the factory support for BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Jaguar? GM put the challenge out to anyone that wanted to submit a stock vehicle and Mitsubishi was the only one to step-up.
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