new csl?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Steved

Yes, the CSL uses different suspension (springs, dampers, control arms, sway bars) to the M3 although the mounting points are the same. Most of the suspension, brakes, exhaust etc are unique to the CSL as of course is much of the bodywork and interior.

When the CSL first was launched and as we turned a friend's car into GT race car, we added up how many changes there were over the M3 and the cost of these changes were much greater than the price difference BMW charged at the time.

I am aware of the exhaust and engine mods, but I wasn't aware of the substantial suspension differences. Then the rant about CSL pricing has been over the top; it is strange how people think BMW has tried to charge significantly more for removing the AC and the stereo.

[footie]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Just some thoughts...

Cant the RS4 and CSL be competitors in the same way that the M3 and 997S are competitors? Two different cars offering different experiences?

The only way these two cars could be classed as competitors is that maybe 1% of the customers for each might consider buying one or the other. The 997 is in a class above the M3, maybe not in out right ability but definitely in image/status and price.

I personally don't know of a single person who has a RS4 that would consider the CSL an option, unless they had the money to either have both (like Steved) or drive something else as a daily driver.

Seriously, trying to argue your point that both the RS4 and CSL are rivals to each other is like flogging a died horse.

Originally Posted by JEllis

What about the GT500 and Corvette... Talk about two totally different experiences and sales volumes but wouldnt these cars appeal to the same customer?

If the GTR is only brought to the US in small numbers (1500-2000 expected US sales/year), does that really mean its not a competitor for the 997TT?

I think you get my drift...

Jason

I don't know the two American cars personally so I won't make a fool of myself by making a comment on them. As for the GTR, until we have a few roadtest results on how the thing drives, rides etc, we will not be able to give a fair and valid judgement on whether it's a true rival for the 997TT or the GT3. But one thing is for sure, it's performance looks to be closer to that of the Turbo while it's handling abilities seem to be closer to that of the GT3, it looks to be a n amazing machine.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by footie

The only way these two cars could be classed as competitors is that maybe 1% of the customers for each might consider buying one or the other. The 997 is in a class above the M3, maybe not in out right ability but definitely in image/status and price.

I personally don't know of a single person who has a RS4 that would consider the CSL an option, unless they had the money to either have both (like Steved) or drive something else as a daily driver.

Seriously, trying to argue your point that both the RS4 and CSL are rivals to each other is like flogging a died horse.



I don't know the two American cars personally so I won't make a fool of myself by making a comment on them. As for the GTR, until we have a few roadtest results on how the thing drives, rides etc, we will not be able to give a fair and valid judgement on whether it's a true rival for the 997TT or the GT3. But one thing is for sure, it's performance looks to be closer to that of the Turbo while it's handling abilities seem to be closer to that of the GT3, it looks to be a n amazing machine.

Sorry, I just like be the devils advocate here.

I do believe that car buying and personal taste is a little more than two sided. I believe the RS4 and CSl can apeal to the same customer because they both apeal to me. I am probably a bad model for comparison.

I also love the 997TT and 997 GT3 and if I could I would own both. If I had to chose I would take the 997 GT3 because I like the idea of it more than I think I would be driving it on the track every weekend. So if I had the money then the 997TT and GT3 would be competing for my money. I would have to be convinced either way.

Its funny that we talk about "direct competitors" because there are several posts on this forum from people considering the new M3 or a new Land Rover. Since Land Rover and BMW are both then competing for the same customers money, are they direct competitors? Of course not but you see what I am getting at.

Jason

[Steved]

Originally Posted by footie

As for the GTR, until we have a few roadtest results on how the thing drives, rides etc, we will not be able to give a fair and valid judgement on whether it's a true rival for the 997TT or the GT3. But one thing is for sure, it's performance looks to be closer to that of the Turbo while it's handling abilities seem to be closer to that of the GT3, it looks to be a n amazing machine.

A journalist friend of mine has driven the GTR (his test will be published in next month's EVO) and from what I understand its driving experience is most similar to a 997TT. It's quick but effortless, there's not a lot of driver involvement compared to something like a GT3, and therefore nearly anyone could drive a GTR quickly. It's a daily driver, something that will perform well on every road surface, and in any condition. Rather like a 997TT then, and similarly it lacks soul if viewed purely as a drivers car. The one that he drove was a development mule, and that was some 4-5 months ago, so Nissan may have made changes since, but even by Nissan's own admission they were aiming at the 997TT.

Now, would a typical 997TT customer buy a GTR? Probably not. But I know of several customers who currently own 996TTs (bought as 3-4 year old cars) who will be considering a GTR, since it will cost a similar amount to the 996TTs they currently own.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by lucid

I am aware of the exhaust and engine mods, but I wasn't aware of the substantial suspension differences. Then the rant about CSL pricing has been over the top; it is strange how people think BMW has tried to charge significantly more for removing the AC and the stereo.

There are actually some obvious component differences between the two that can easily justify the price difference. The front bumper/spoiler is made of CFRP, which costs just over £3000 (unpainted) to replace. Then there is the CF air-intake unit that uses an Alpha-N ignition system. Most people don't realise from the under-bonnet photos that the intake unit is actually 3ft long (yes, really) and costs over £3500 to replace. So there's £6500 of the £15000 price difference already, and we haven't even touched upon the rest of the CFRP components, suspension, engine, exhaust, brakes and interior.

Thankfully despite all the complaining about prices, the CSL 4 years later is still worth around 63% of its original purchase price and has not depreciated for the past 2 years.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Steved

A journalist friend of mine has driven the GTR (his test will be published in next month's EVO) and from what I understand its driving experience is most similar to a 997TT. It's quick but effortless, there's not a lot of driver involvement compared to something like a GT3, and therefore nearly anyone could drive a GTR quickly. It's a daily driver, something that will perform well on every road surface, and in any condition. Rather like a 997TT then, and similarly it lacks soul if viewed purely as a drivers car. The one that he drove was a development mule, and that was some 4-5 months ago, so Nissan may have made changes since, but even by Nissan's own admission they were aiming at the 997TT.

Now, would a typical 997TT customer buy a GTR? Probably not. But I know of several customers who currently own 996TTs (bought as 3-4 year old cars) who will be considering a GTR, since it will cost a similar amount to the 996TTs they currently own.

It interesting to see that the GTR isn't as involving as expected. I did expect someone to say that anyone could drive it quickly as this has been the case of all previous GTRs.

How did it's performance/handling feel, did it feel like 7:38 (ring time) quick?

I would also agree that someone with a previous 996TT would consider the GTR as like you rightly said the two are similarly priced, but I wouldn't expect too many customers of the 997TT picking the GTR over it as we come back to the image/status thing.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Steved

There are actually some obvious component differences between the two that can easily justify the price difference. The front bumper/spoiler is made of CFRP, which costs just over £3000 (unpainted) to replace. Then there is the CF air-intake unit that uses an Alpha-N ignition system. Most people don't realise from the under-bonnet photos that the intake unit is actually 3ft long (yes, really) and costs over £3500 to replace. So there's £6500 of the £15000 price difference already, and we haven't even touched upon the rest of the CFRP components, suspension, engine, exhaust, brakes and interior.

Thankfully despite all the complaining about prices, the CSL 4 years later is still worth around 63% of its original purchase price and has not depreciated for the past 2 years.

Thanks for the explanation of the differences between M3 and CSL.

Tell me mate, were you one of the wish one to wait until the unsold CSLs in the UK came down in price on the dealers' forecourts, if so then I reckon you have had very cheap driving indeed.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by footie

It interesting to see that the GTR isn't as involving as expected. I did expect someone to say that anyone could drive it quickly as this has been the case of all previous GTRs.

How did it's performance/handling feel, did it feel like 7:38 (ring time) quick?

I would also agree that someone with a previous 996TT would consider the GTR as like you rightly said the two are similarly priced, but I wouldn't expect too many customers of the 997TT picking the GTR over it as we come back to the image/status thing.

Performance was definitely 997TT quick, and it was even easier to drive on the Nordschlieffe, but it is heavy (1800kg) and the brakes soon wilt if driven on a 'normal' track with lots of braking. The test drive of their development mule was undertaken on the Nurburgring Grand Prix track, and after a few laps the brake pedal was getting long and tyres were over heating.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by footie

Tell me mate, were you one of the wish one to wait until the unsold CSLs in the UK came down in price on the dealers' forecourts, if so then I reckon you have had very cheap driving indeed.

:sad0147::sad0147::sad0147::sad0147::sad0147:

No! I was one of the 100 or so original customers who paid full price...

[footie]

Originally Posted by Steved

Performance was definitely 997TT quick, and it was even easier to drive on the Nordschlieffe, but it is heavy (1800kg) and the brakes soon wilt if driven on a 'normal' track with lots of braking. The test drive of their development mule was undertaken on the Nurburgring Grand Prix track, and after a few laps the brake pedal was getting long and tyres were over heating.

As a fellow Quattro driver you will know that weight and awd are two things which kill brakes and melt tyres. Though I am surprised considering the brand and size of brakes involved that fade ever became an issue.

Even though this might have been a development mule, the fact that Nissan let him loose in it leads me to believe that the car was all but the finished article.

P.S.

You comments on the S5 compared to the RS4 is something I would agree with but would have been brave enough to say on this on this site especially as I reckon I would have been laughed at. The thing I noticed about the two (s5 and RS4) is that they both seem to corner as quick as each other, though I felt more confident in the RS4 to lean on it in the corners. As a car the S5 is a really quick car which I doubt even the M3 will pull away from on back roads such is it's easiness to drive fast and the way it's limits are so easy to approach and control.

Some after such a statement might think why change to the M3 but as you will already know about the S5 is that it's so efficient that going quickly isn't much different than driving to the shops, where as the M3 on every journey will be an adventure.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Steved

:sad0147::sad0147::sad0147::sad0147::sad0147:

No! I was one of the 100 or so original customers who paid full price...

Sorry to admit this mate, but the fact you could afford to have both made me so envious, but knowing that you didn't get a great deal on the CSL make it a little easier.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Steved

There are actually some obvious component differences between the two that can easily justify the price difference. The front bumper/spoiler is made of CFRP, which costs just over £3000 (unpainted) to replace. Then there is the CF air-intake unit that uses an Alpha-N ignition system. Most people don't realise from the under-bonnet photos that the intake unit is actually 3ft long (yes, really) and costs over £3500 to replace. So there's £6500 of the £15000 price difference already, and we haven't even touched upon the rest of the CFRP components, suspension, engine, exhaust, brakes and interior.

Thankfully despite all the complaining about prices, the CSL 4 years later is still worth around 63% of its original purchase price and has not depreciated for the past 2 years.

With the limited production, it most likely won't depreciate much more, and in 10 years, it might even become a collector's item of some sort. I would seriously consider buying a used CSL instead of my a E92 M3 if I were living in Europe (and keep my current car as a daily driver).

[Steved]

Originally Posted by footie

You comments on the S5 compared to the RS4 is something I would agree with but would have been brave enough to say on this on this site especially as I reckon I would have been laughed at. The thing I noticed about the two (s5 and RS4) is that they both seem to corner as quick as each other, though I felt more confident in the RS4 to lean on it in the corners. As a car the S5 is a really quick car which I doubt even the M3 will pull away from on back roads such is it's easiness to drive fast and the way it's limits are so easy to approach and control.

You probably wouldn't realise from my comments that I really liked the S5. I preferred its more grown up looks than the RS4, loved its LED lights (amazing reactions from pedestrians at crossings), and just liked being in it. The reason I drove four of them was to try and change my mind, and even now I question whether I should have got one, since they make a great daily driver. But after driving the RS4, I just couldn't walk away from its more sporty capabilities. Clearly the RS5 will be a very competitive car to the M3, especially if Audi apply a similar 4WD rearward bias as in the R8. For me any car that I own has to be able to go sideways (even if that means cheating with the handbrake), the RS4 just about manages to..

Back to the topic of the next M3 CSL, I am really looking forward to driving one, perhaps a test mule as BMW offered to the press last time.

[JEllis]

Really enjoying the good discussion here!

Jason

[footie]

Originally Posted by Steved

You probably wouldn't realise from my comments that I really liked the S5. I preferred its more grown up looks than the RS4, loved its LED lights (amazing reactions from pedestrians at crossings), and just liked being in it. The reason I drove four of them was to try and change my mind, and even now I question whether I should have got one, since they make a great daily driver. But after driving the RS4, I just couldn't walk away from its more sporty capabilities. Clearly the RS5 will be a very competitive car to the M3, especially if Audi apply a similar 4WD rearward bias as in the R8. For me any car that I own has to be able to go sideways (even if that means cheating with the handbrake), the RS4 just about manages to..

Back to the topic of the next M3 CSL, I am really looking forward to driving one, perhaps a test mule as BMW offered to the press last time.

I won't go on about the S5 because you are rightly stating we are getting off topic, but you commented on the RS5 and it possible 4wd system.

I doubt it will be similar to the R8 because it's meant to be based on the Lamborghini's awd system and is mid-engined so a lot of adapting I reckon, but the talk coming from some Audi sites is that it will be gaining something called 'Torque Vectoring' which sounds like a fancy LSD similar to the latest EVO XI. So I reckon you would have to revert to using the handbrake any more.

Now the new CSL, I hope it's similar to the new M3 in the way that it's even more capable than the last M3 while all the time improving the live-ability of the thing. If BMW can make it just as good or even better than the last CSL and make it better to drive daily and improve it's comfort even more than I reckon more people could consider it as a viable alternative to a normal M3, but chances are it will once again command a huge price difference which will push it out of the reach of almost all M3 owners and into the hands of the fortunate few.

Like your good self.

[GregW / Oregon]

Slightly OT. I posted this in another thread, but may be more relavent here. Pardon if it's a repost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL7T9BD_Q3k

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I posted this in another thread, but may be more relevant here. Pardon if it's a repost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL7T9BD_Q3k

Wow that was an amazing video. 7:22

[footie]

Great vid but not really relevant to the debate about the new CSL.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

As a car the S5 is a really quick car which I doubt even the M3 will pull away from on back roads...

footie, I realize you have an S5 and therefore will need to "defend" it in many ways but are you entirely serious with the above? With the S5 coming in around a very portly 3900 lb and a measly 354 hp you are seriously off base if you think the S5 will keep up with an M3 in the twisties (or anywhere for that matter). Look at the weight divided by power delivered to the wheels (not crank hp) and you will find about a whopping 25% difference between the two cars. This is not insignificant. It is very close to comparing a F430 vs. E92 M3.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by swamp2

footie, I realize you have an S5 and therefore will need to "defend" it in many ways but are you entirely serious with the above? With the S5 coming in around a very portly 3900 lb and a measly 354 hp you are seriously off base if you think the S5 will keep up with an M3 in the twisties (or anywhere for that matter). Look at the weight divided by power delivered to the wheels (not crank hp) and you will find about a whopping 25% difference between the two cars. This is not insignificant. It is very close to comparing a F430 vs. E92 M3.

Isn't the S5 pretty much on par with the 335i? I thought they did a comparison on the track and the S5 won by 1/10 of a second, but the review said the 335i felt better and more agile. If that's true, I don't see how its possible for the S5 to pull on an M3 either.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

footie, I realize you have an S5 and therefore will need to "defend" it in many ways but are you entirely serious with the above? With the S5 coming in around a very portly 3900 lb and a measly 354 hp you are seriously off base if you think the S5 will keep up with an M3 in the twisties (or anywhere for that matter). Look at the weight divided by power delivered to the wheels (not crank hp) and you will find about a whopping 25% difference between the two cars. This is not insignificant. It is very close to comparing a F430 vs. E92 M3.

swamp2,

I know Steved will understand why I am saying what I am said and you have to remember that I am talking about UK roads and not the normal roads you have in the States. The M3 is a much more thrilling car to drive but I know it's limits are more unpredictable than that of the S5 reasons being awd is more approachable in this respect. I know it's hard to understand this but while the S5 is only as quick as a 335i on the track it will totally destroy it on a tight and twistie road in much the same way as the M3 will.

Ask Steved the same question and I reckon he will probably agree with me on this.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

swamp2,

I know Steved will understand why I am saying what I am said and you have to remember that I am talking about UK roads and not the normal roads you have in the States. The M3 is a much more thrilling car to drive but I know it's limits are more unpredictable than that of the S5 reasons being awd is more approachable in this respect. I know it's hard to understand this but while the S5 is only as quick as a 335i on the track it will totally destroy it on a tight and twistie road in much the same way as the M3 will.

Ask Steved the same question and I reckon he will probably agree with me on this.

I am only an uniformed, couch/magazine racer anyway. All the math and logic holds no value whatsoever compared to seat time. I have not driven an S5 so I know this makes my reasoning 100% invalid...

Have you been reading along with the plethora of M3 tests that absolutely rave about how easy the car is to drive fast? Similar comments exist about its amazing ability to get montrous traction in all conditions. In one test vs. the RS4 the reviewer commented that the M3 hooked up better coming out of tight corners than the RS4, despite the Quattro AWD. The M was found to almost magically find the traction. The M settings for the DSC really makes folks look and drive like a hero in this car as well. All of this yet the car is still said to be challenging, rewarding and responds more and more the harder it is pushed. There is sort of a fine line between easy to drive and trivial to drive. Seems like the M3 and GT-R as well are going for the "easy", could Audi be going for the "trivial".

Either way my opinion stands. Any twisty road, US or UK and the M3 is going to punish the S5.