Who is Michael Cooper? M3 driver in CTS-V Challenge!

[quackbury]

Originally Posted by the///Mthree

The brembo brakes on the CTSV are definitely bullet proof compared to our M brakes. But my brakes were not gone at the end of a warmup and 2 hot laps BUT I felt the 3rd hot lap would no way be quicker so their was no point to try another.

So you are not only FAST, you are MATURE as well! Props to you for looking out for hte equipment.

Hypothetical question: Would you have gone for that 3rd lap if it had been someone else's car (and they were footing the bill for pads and totors?)

[the///Mthree]

Originally Posted by quackbury

So you are not only FAST, you are MATURE as well! Props to you for looking out for hte equipment.

Hypothetical question: Would you have gone for that 3rd lap if it had been someone else's car (and they were footing the bill for pads and totors?)

Nope, it wasnt a case of wearing them out. It was the case of the car not having the stopping distance it needed to put in a faster lap.

[CSanto]

Awesome Job Mike!
Talk to you soon.

-Chris

[cjfairman]

Originally Posted by jml

Props to GM, this was a great idea. If I were buying now, I would be seriously considering the CTSV as a DD/Track car. The E90 fits that bill well as I expected, but I never guessed that the V would be even more capable out of the box (talking brakes here).

Here's another objective view. When I was talking to the GM designers and engineers. They told me the M5 could go all day tracking right off the showroom floor. I'm not sure if they were talking brakes or other parts. They said when designing the CTSV car, they were rarely told "No" by the upper brass. There were very few parts they had to compromise. And basically those parts are in the vette, ZR1. So for 30k more you can have those parts in a vette or an M5 for that matter.
It seemed to me most people there, were impressed with each others' cars for various reasons. It was fun hangin with car guys and car gals. I didn't notice many fanboys there.

As far as my V, once we cooled down and said our good-byes to everyone, we got in the car for a 9 1/2 hour ride back to Ann Arbor. After a good bath when I got home, it seems tight as the day I drove it home from the dealer. I was thrilled, because I'm usually the sort who babies the car. That day was so fun, my mind has changed. Now I'm going to drive it, not baby it.

[ChinoOrtega]

Good Job man, great driving, glad to hear BMW stepped up

[Neil McRae]

Top job Micheal, you are now Internet Folklore

You deserve some sort of elite M3Post title

Well done.

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by quackbury

So you are not only FAST, you are MATURE as well! Props to you for looking out for hte equipment.

Hypothetical question: Would you have gone for that 3rd lap if it had been someone else's car (and they were footing the bill for pads and totors?)

do Brembo brakes really make a major difference? if they do why doesnt bmw M use them?

[the///Mthree]

Originally Posted by bobbyd1961

do Brembo brakes really make a major difference?

Yes!

[m3bs]

Originally Posted by bobbyd1961

do Brembo brakes really make a major difference? if they do why doesnt bmw M use them?

They do. My 135 has them.

[cjfairman]

Originally Posted by m3bs

They do. My 135 has them.

From a total newbie, yes they make a difference. My caddy is fat and heavy and as much fun as the power was, I was amazed at how this thing stopped. Then, put it in capable hands (not mine) and its pretty amazing. Like one of the posters said above lots of guys make mods on power and forget the brakes. Even more important don't forget the driving school.

[quackbury]

Originally Posted by bobbyd1961

do Brembo brakes really make a major difference? if they do why doesnt bmw M use them?

2 factors at work here: How well do your brakes stop ONCE, and how well do they stop REPEATEDLY.

IMHO the stock M3 brakes are perfectly fine for street use. The challenge comes on a racetrack, where you are calling on your brakes to provide 90% to 100% stopping power, over and over and over again.

Brakes stop you by converting kinetic energy into heat. Stopping a relatively heavy vehicle (like the M3) over and over again builds up a LOT of heat, and the end result can be boiled brake fluid (with a resulting total loss of braking power), glazed pads and warped rotors. The Brembo design / product is superior to the OEM design / product for track work.

The trade off is Brembo brakes are darn expensive. As someone noted above, the engineers at Cadillac basically had a bottomless checkbook to design and build the CTS-V, and if product development costs and parts costs were factored in, the General is no doubt selling every CTS-V at a loss. When they built the business case for the car, I am sure the bean counters assumed they would subsidize every CTS-V with sales of the CTS-4, the Escalade, etc.

Since I won't be tracking my M3, the OEM system works just fine for me.

EDIT: BTW it's not just the rotor/caliper part of the design that comes into play, but also the choice of pad compound and brake fluid. I used to swap out my 911's street pads for "harder" aftermarket pads that did a better job dissipating heat. The trade-off was the after-market pads didn't stop well AT ALL till they were up to operating temps, making the car dangerous to drive on the highway (especially in the rain). Similarly, brake fluid for track use has a higher boiling point than brake fluid for street use, the trade-off being a "soft" or "spongy" pedal when you're driving around town. This is fine if you are a track junky, but not so good if your M3 is a DD.

Like every other aspect of your car, the design of the braking system is a compromise.

I can't help but wonder if different pads and fluid might have helped Michael Cooper?

[footie]

I agree that Brembo brakes are superior but disagree that they on their own would have push any car to the point were they were selling every one at a lose. The amount of brands that use they is huge and not all are mega bucks either, look at the amount of Japanese brands using them yet their products don't cost the earth.

The simple fact is BMW either don't see their M products as track day tools and only see them are cars for spirited drivers to be used on the road. On the road the brakes work perfectly, but on the track they will fall off the map very quickly and quicker still if you are a skilled driver that can lap at the peak of the car's ability.


Bottom line is BMW like most companies want to make as much as possible out of their cars.

[UsualSuspect]

The CTS-V is amazing! Thanks for sharing. I think with some Brembo's and another 40-60HP you would have been able to keep up with the Caddy.

By the way how did you even get involved? Just the invite on line?

[the///Mthree]

Originally Posted by UsualSuspect

The CTS-V is amazing! Thanks for sharing. I think with some Brembo's and another 40-60HP you would have been able to keep up with the Caddy.

By the way how did you even get involved? Just the invite on line?

My brother signed me up, he told me about it after he had already done so. Then the people from Cadillac called one morning last week.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by m3bs

They do. My 135 has them.

The materials, quality and efficacy of a typical Brembo BBK are all worlds apart from the Brembo brakes they offer for the 135i.

[330CIZHP]

Looks like the word is spreading about M3 wining GM's open challenge. Edmunds inside line now has a page where they talk about how Michael Cooper blew up GM's publicity stunt in its face:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317948

Good to see it vindicate what I have been saying all along that Heinrichy's lap time is apples to oranges with Cooper's while GM fanbois have been in constant denial by making a fit 45 year old professional ex-race car driver and current GM engineer look like a driver with dementia on a wheelchair. Guess Porsche is an idiot to keep 64 year old Walter Rohrl to test and run fastest laps in Porsche 911s:

No surprise here: Professional racer and retired GM engineer, John Heinricy posted the day's fastest lap at 2:46:560.


This knowledge is useful mostly for getting an idea of how fast a CTS-V is capable of running here at Monticello. Do not, however, compare that lap time (nor that of the other GM ringer), to the laps posted by the privately owned BMWs, Jag and Audi. Those were more-or-less average guys that happen to own fast cars, not professional drivers.

[FStop7]

I have changed my opinion about this whole event. The thing I reconsidered when thinking about it some more is that when creating the CTS-V GM had set their sights on the M5. That was their performance target. In those terms, the CTS-V is a huge success. It outperforms the M5 across the board and costs about half the price. In fact, the CTS-V performs so well that it can even stand up to the M3 around a road course, something that was never even part of the plan. So from that perspective the CTS-V is a huge victory.

BTW - The "other ringer" Edmunds is referring to is Johnny O'Connell, who is one of the main drivers on the C6.R team in ALMS.

[m7suther]

Is it not crazy that we are congratulating someone for hanging in there with a car that is 20 thousand less than a M3? I would like to know what the heck BMW is going to do to fix this! Should a big old GM car be able to keep up with any BMW? Wow this really did work for GM to raise the standard of thier cars what's next a Z4 roadster vs a Buic Lacern battle it out on the track?

[330CIZHP]

WTF?? Since when did CTS-V cost $20K less??? It was supposed to be an M5 competitor at a much lower prices. It costs well over $70K in Canada and CTS-V have been known to lose over 70% of their value in the first 4 years. One can pick up a loaded 2005 CTS-V for $24,000 - 26,000 easily.

Originally Posted by m7suther

Is it not crazy that we are congratulating someone for hanging in there with a car that is 20 thousand less than a M3? I would like to know what the heck BMW is going to do to fix this! Should a big old GM car be able to keep up with any BMW? Wow this really did work for GM to raise the standard of thier cars what's next a Z4 roadster vs a Buic Lacern battle it out on the track?

[foosh]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

WTF?? Since when did CTS-V cost $20K less??? It was supposed to be an M5 competitor at a much lower prices. It costs well over $70K in Canada and CTS-V have been known to lose over 70% of their value in the first 4 years. One can pick up a loaded 2005 CTS-V for $24,000 - 26,000 easily.

I just did a search of Autotrader, and I can pick up a 2005 M3 Coupe all day long for $26K easily. The MSRP on the 05 CTS-V was $50K (but they were available new for low $40's). 2005 M5 started at $85K.

You were right about today's asking price, but that is NOT a 70% loss of their value in 4 years, which would make them available at $15K. If you find one at that price, let me know, I'll buy it.

The '05 V and the current model are about as similar as the E46 and E9X.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by foosh

I just did a search of Autotrader, and I can pick up a 2005 M3 Coupe all day long for $26K easily. The MSRP on the 05 CTS-V was $50K (but they were available new for low $40's). 2005 M5 started at $85K.

You were right about today's asking price, but that is NOT a 70% loss of their value in 4 years, which would make them available at $15K. If you find one at that price, let me know, I'll buy it.

The '05 V and the current model are about as similar as the E46 and E9X.

There is confusion here because we are trying to compare US & Canadian pricing.The markets are 2 totaly different animals!Up here domestic luxury vehicles have almost no resale compared to the imports of the same price level.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by FStop7

I have changed my opinion about this whole event. The thing I reconsidered when thinking about it some more is that when creating the CTS-V GM had set their sights on the M5. That was their performance target. In those terms, the CTS-V is a huge success. It outperforms the M5 across the board and costs about half the price. In fact, the CTS-V performs so well that it can even stand up to the M3 around a road course, something that was never even part of the plan. So from that perspective the CTS-V is a huge victory.

BTW - The "other ringer" Edmunds is referring to is Johnny O'Connell, who is one of the main drivers on the C6.R team in ALMS.

The M5 is not in the same market as the CTS-V. The CTS-V really is a competitor for the M3 and the C63 in price and size. It is actually a quite small car. No more room than a 3 series.