From VANOS issues to...???

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by MFKN3

Yep true. It does sounds like the bearings have an element of slight variance across engines, so you're right. Rebuilds can be in order of $20k however for something that is being dealt with more realistically in U.S. Was it EAS who found a factory plastic liner still installed on a bearing in an engine tear down they did recently.

Unsure about the liner, but there have been instances plastic was found. I am surprised given the R&D $$$ and the time they spend, you end up with issues like this.

I think it's a bit of a catch 22 situation. They want to have very little clearance to improve driver comfort in terms of noise in a car like this, but you still need the clearance to tolerate the load under high rpm.

[DaveDee]

Well at 70K + and the use you get out of the car on and off the track I guess it’s no surprise. I’m at the stage now where I know more M3 owners that have had engine rebuilds and replacements than not, some supercharged, some bone stock. The worst examples were late E90’s with total engine seizures, both cars had little to no track hours and were both bone stock, not even an exhaust.
If you own a standard diesel car and drive it to work on a daily basis, sit in traffic and never go above 3000 RPM you could expect the car to last forever, on the other hand if you have a dedicated race car it’s a rebuild in progress, a drag car even worse.
I think we expect a lot from our M3s and get a lot, but 70K+ with regular track use by an experienced driver and the car is still running on the original engine… that’s a great car and a good motor.
And you have the luck to be a customer of Mike’s who is as good as you can get for responsible engine builds and service. You might be lucky and get away with it costing you less than a year’s depreciation on the car which nobody talks about, to get your car back on track for Morgan Park and many more to come.
Enjoy the car and be grateful the motor is still running and see you and Kristy at Morgan Park for a few drinks and a great day on the track with your rebuilt monster. I've felt the pain and know what it's like to go through a rebuild, but don't let that spoil the experience

[jav_au]

Was a there any latest news on this? Assume still need to wait till teardown in July for update? Will be watching with eager eyes because if this is a proven rod bearing issue I'll be looking to book in as a preventative on my own car. I think the clevite bearings aren't due till September or later so may hold off myself for them to come into the market as it seems they actually adress the clearance issue where as the other options dont. Anyone pulled out coated or wpc bearings to inspect how they are holding up??

[Ingenio]

I don't have any first hand experience of this but like most people I'm concerned about the risk. That said I spoke to AC today and they claim to have only replaced one set of rod bearings in 8 years. They asked me why I was worried and I told them about all the U.S. forum posts about the issue. He then said he thought it could be because they have a different 'engine setup' to ours... WTF? Apparent due to their emissions laws their Exhaust Gas Recirculation system is entirely different and results in more pressure being created at the top of the engine. Now then, I'm no engineer and I have no idea if this is even valid thinking... But if anyone out there does I'd sure been keen to hear their opinion...

[DaveDee]

Originally Posted by jav_au

Was a there any latest news on this? Assume still need to wait till teardown in July for update? Will be watching with eager eyes because if this is a proven rod bearing issue I'll be looking to book in as a preventative on my own car. I think the clevite bearings aren't due till September or later so may hold off myself for them to come into the market as it seems they actually adress the clearance issue where as the other options dont. Anyone pulled out coated or wpc bearings to inspect how they are holding up??

VAC bearings have been extensively tested in the Harrop track M3 and it gets severely punished. They did a tear down after running the bearings under track, road and dyno testing for over 200 dyno pulls and multiple hard track days without any signs of wear at all. When they were installed in my car clearances were checked and found to be spot on. I checked with Harrop yesterday and they have pulled the engine down several times and reinspected the bearings as part of their R&D and the VAC bearings were still in perfect order.
Several members here have had the bearings replaced, one of our friends just this week had a stock E92 2010 model with 55Ks on the clock did it as preventative maintenance, and the bearings were excessively worn and in the near future could have caused serious engine damage

[Adagio]

Originally Posted by DaveDee

VAC bearings have been extensively tested in the Harrop track M3 and it gets severely punished. They did a tear down after running the bearings under track, road and dyno testing for over 200 dyno pulls and multiple hard track days without any signs of wear at all. When they were installed in my car clearances were checked and found to be spot on. I checked with Harrop yesterday and they have pulled the engine down several times and reinspected the bearings as part of their R&D and the VAC bearings were still in perfect order.
Several members here have had the bearings replaced, one of our friends just this week had a stock E92 2010 model with 55Ks on the clock did it as preventative maintenance, and the bearings were excessively worn and in the near future could have caused serious engine damage

Yep, that was my car!! After reading horror stories on forums, two mates needing complete rebuilds and talking with Dave Dee and others, did bearing change as preventative measure. My car has been serviced by BMW since new and hasn't been tracked - but showed the signs of excessive wear and would have started deteriorating rapidly.... For peace of mind and $2,500 including Oil change, it's a no brainer...

Mike from prestige and performance in Brisbane was great as usual.....

PM me if you want the pics... Can't attach them for some reason....

[jav_au]

Thanks for that adagio. I'm in brisbane too and will be getting Mike to change them for me. 2.5k sounds reasonable and I will look into this before I get to 50k. My e90 only has 32k on the clock and is due for service in November so I may look at doing it then. I was going to wait for the clevite cusTom bearings which are not coated but are going to improve the clearance. Did you go with the arp rod bolts as well and how long did it take Mike to change them out? Thanks so much for the info. Was there any noise coming from the car at all?

[EarthboundMisfit]

I have updated the original post.

It is a fact of life that engines wear out over time, and that includes bearings too. All bearings wear in all engines (our Mercedes diesel SUV had it's bearings replaced under warranty when it was 3 years old). I don't think anyone should expect their bearings to look new once pulled.

I also think BMW and bearing related issues in their performance motors is a recurring theme, and we're all learning that this is part of the ownership "experience".

[DBE]

Lucky they make up for the bearing experience with other more positive experiences

[jav_au]

Any reason for going with oem bearings again as opposed to wpc or coated? The arp bolts make sense. If harrop have pulled bearings after time to say they aren't wearing then that would be a good case to look at that option. I would like to thank you for keeping an informative post even during a time of frustration. People sometimes don't appreciate how much this can help others and take it for granted. Good luck with it all.

[DaveDee]

Originally Posted by jav_au

Any reason for going with oem bearings again as opposed to wpc or coated? The arp bolts make sense. If harrop have pulled bearings after time to say they aren't wearing then that would be a good case to look at that option. I would like to thank you for keeping an informative post even during a time of frustration. People sometimes don't appreciate how much this can help others and take it for granted. Good luck with it all.

You need the ARP bolts as the stock rod bolts are one use only, they stretch when torqued up, ARP can be reused.
Harrop have done a few tear downs of their car (which is an 07/08) to inspect for wear and also in the ongoing study of any long term effects of supercharging.

VAC make the following statement about their current bearings:
Our new bearings are custom units made especially for us buy Mahle/ Clevite. These newer bearings are made to compensate for the thickness of the Calico CT1 coating.

Mike will clearance the bearings during install and after numerous S65 rebuilds including mine I don't think you will get better advice.

[EarthboundMisfit]

Originally Posted by jav_au

Any reason for going with oem bearings again as opposed to wpc or coated? The arp bolts make sense. If harrop have pulled bearings after time to say they aren't wearing then that would be a good case to look at that option. I would like to thank you for keeping an informative post even during a time of frustration. People sometimes don't appreciate how much this can help others and take it for granted. Good luck with it all.

I am skeptical of the claims made about WPC treated and Calico coated bearings, so ordered OEM replacements two weeks ago.

However, having now read this post I am encouraged by the results from the Calico coated bearings (and would really like to see other vendors publish similar information to support their claims).

There is still time to source alternate bearings before the car goes in, so I may order some yet.

[jav_au]

I believe the wpc bearings are merely oem bearings that are treated so would assume that it would at least be as good as oem if not better so nothing to lose? If vac are saying they are reducing bearing thickness to accommodate the coating that seems the best of both worlds? I believe that is essentially what the guys are doing with their custom clevite bearings? All I know is I want to make this change before the end of the year. It seems Mike has done a few more since I asked him in January- at that time he said he hadn't seen evidence enough to say that the bearing clearance was an issue but it seems a common theme among motors that have been stripped. Does anyone think changing from tws 10-60 could be answer? Is tws the same oil specced after bearing change from Mike?

[DaveDee]

Originally Posted by Adagio

Yep, that was my car!! After reading horror stories on forums, two mates needing complete rebuilds and talking with Dave Dee and others, did bearing change as preventative measure. My car has been serviced by BMW since new and hasn't been tracked - but showed the signs of excessive wear and would have started deteriorating rapidly.... For peace of mind and $2,500 including Oil change, it's a no brainer...

Mike from prestige and performance in Brisbane was great as usual.....

PM me if you want the pics... Can't attach them for some reason....

One of the pics.... well timed maintenance!

[jav_au]

Wow. Caught in perfect time. I'm waiting till later in the year when the revised bearings are out so I have more options. With 32km on the clock and only sedate daily driving with no track work I'm hoping I should be okay till then. This definitely shows there is an issue that is common theme here and not an anomaly. Seriously BMW should be held to account for this! Chances of it happening are slim to none though so better sick it up and bite the bullet I suppose. Do harrop have photos of the bearings from recent teardowns at all?

[jav_au]

Also it seems that the torque on the bolts themselves may be a contributing factor. I would like to know which type of arp bolt is used in the harrop car as apparently there is 2 versions? 625 and 2000? One may cause less ovality apparently.

[Ingenio]

Hey guys... Looks like you're lucky to have Mike's skill and experience over East but I wondered what the consensus is regarding an equivalent in Perth? I'll probably do my rod bearings later in the year assuming my oil sample results reveal the expected readings...

[American Dave]

My engine oil analysis came back showing very little in the way of metals and looks healthy but I am still likely to do replace the rod bearings just the same as my engine has 75K kms on it now and I intend to do more track events. I have not priced this work locally yet.

[DaveDee]

Originally Posted by American Dave

My engine oil analysis came back showing very little in the way of metals and looks healthy but I am still likely to do replace the rod bearings just the same as my engine has 75K kms on it now and I intend to do more track events. I have not priced this work locally yet.

In another example after just selling a Harrop SC kit to a performance shop owner in Sydney the topic of rod bearings came up and we agreed he needed to change out the rod bearings with 80 odd K on the clock of a 2008 M3.

Lucky he did, he later told me the bearings were so worn they would have spun at any time soon. The engine was saved from catastrophic failure even though it was a NA bone stock motor.
It's looking like a requirement in all cases as our cars age, and I can say from personal experience engine failure is a bitter, expensive and long drawn out experience.
I'd one all the oil checks with in range results, 4000kms later total engine failure.

It's worth doing even if for peace of mind

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by DaveDee

You need the ARP bolts as the stock rod bolts are one use only, they stretch when torqued up, ARP can be reused.
Harrop have done a few tear downs of their car (which is an 07/08) to inspect for wear and also in the ongoing study of any long term effects of supercharging.

VAC make the following statement about their current bearings:
Our new bearings are custom units made especially for us buy Mahle/ Clevite. These newer bearings are made to compensate for the thickness of the Calico CT1 coating.

Mike will clearance the bearings during install and after numerous S65 rebuilds including mine I don't think you will get better advice.

What they dont say is that there new bearing gives you more clearance then stock its been measured

[DaveDee]

Originally Posted by leigh

What they dont say is that there new bearing gives you more clearance then stock its been measured

True Leigh, for the last 12 months VAC have had these bearings made so the clearances match stock after the bearings were coated, so yes they are now identical clearance to stock with CT-1 coating applied

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by DaveDee

True Leigh, for the last 12 months VAC have had these bearings made so the clearances match stock after the bearings were coated, so yes they are now identical clearance to stock with CT-1 coating applied

No they give more clearance then stock i can get the photos of them been measured