Motul 10w-60

[buddy211]

I am going to get a oil change soon and I was wondering has ever used Motul oil in their m3. My car is just about to hit 51k. I have not changed the rod bearings but this will be the first time doing the blackstone analysis. Should I get Motul or should I go with Castrol tws.

[squartus]

They do have a 10w60 https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/produ...8100-x-power?f[range]=25&f[viscosity]=42

I use Motul 5w40 with great results, top quality synthetic oil, burn much much less oil with it over the castrol.
Did not make a 10w60 when I switched but I also wanted a lighter oil.

[dparm]

OP, is there something objective that indicates the TWS (now replaced with the Pennzoil stuff) isn't sufficient?

[PeruM3]

Reviving this threat. Any reason against using Motul X-Power 8100 10W60? Castrol TWS is impossible to find in Peru and the BWM dealer sells it at $50 per quart which is ridiculous. Last oil change I imported the Castrol TWS directly but I have just found that I can get Motul in Peru at a descent price.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/Motul...W60%20(EN).pdf

[BimmerRookie]

Originally Posted by PeruM3

Reviving this threat. Any reason against using Motul X-Power 8100 10W60? Castrol TWS is impossible to find in Peru and the BWM dealer sells it at $50 per quart which is ridiculous. Last oil change I imported the Castrol TWS directly but I have just found that I can get Motul in Peru at a descent price.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/Motul...W60%20(EN).pdf

$50/qt.???? Holy cow! Is Liqui-Moly available in your area?

[dparm]

Originally Posted by PeruM3

Reviving this threat. Any reason against using Motul X-Power 8100 10W60? Castrol TWS is impossible to find in Peru and the BWM dealer sells it at $50 per quart which is ridiculous. Last oil change I imported the Castrol TWS directly but I have just found that I can get Motul in Peru at a descent price.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/Motul...W60%20(EN).pdf

HTHS of 5.8 is quite thick -- even higher than the Castrol or Shell 10w60 oils (both are which are around 5.4).

You might want to thin it out with a bit of the 8100 5w40. You could do 7 L of 10w60 + 2 L of 5w40 = HTHS 5.33, which is basically the same as the two OEM oils. Motul explicitly says you can mix their oils together to get a "custom" viscosity.

[PeruM3]

Originally Posted by BimmerRookie

$50/qt.???? Holy cow! Is Liqui-Moly available in your area?

I know! Its ridiculous. Basically any spare part in the Peruvian dealer is 3x the retail price in the US.

I think I can get Liqui-Moly, I have never used it, I just thought Motul had a better reputation.

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by dparm

HTHS of 5.8 is quite thick -- even higher than the Castrol or Shell 10w60 oils (both are which are around 5.4).

You might want to thin it out with a bit of the 8100 5w40. You could do 7 L of 10w60 + 2 L of 5w40 = HTHS 5.33, which is basically the same as the two OEM oils. Motul explicitly says you can mix their oils together to get a "custom" viscosity.

Doesn't HTHS relate more to the film strength? (High Temperature High Shear)

The higher this number the more protection you get at the bearings.

OTOH the Viscosity at 40C and Viscosity at 100C tells you how well the oil flows when the engine is cold and when it is warm... those values are on par with the TWS numbers with the Motul actually flowing a little better.

If I'm reading this right the Motul could be a slightly better option...

[dparm]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

Doesn't HTHS relate more to the film strength? (High Temperature High Shear)

The higher this number the more protection you get at the bearings.

OTOH the Viscosity at 40C and Viscosity at 100C tells you how well the oil flows when the engine is cold and when it is warm... those values are on par with the TWS numbers with the Motul actually flowing a little better.

If I'm reading this right the Motul could be a slightly better option...

KV @ 40C & 100C are just two points on a curve. Viscosity index is the better indicator of how much oil's viscosity shifts in relation to temperature. Generally speaking, higher VIs are better.

Pretty much all 10w60s have a VI in the 170s. A few of the boutique oils are in the 180s, but that's still a fairly small difference (<10%). The ones that come to mind are Red Line and Renewable Lube.

You can think of HTHS as a good indicator operational viscosity because that's how it perform at very high temperatures, such as in the bearings and other nasty areas that need lubrication the most. HTHS is measured at 150 C. So yes, in a way, HTHS is a proxy for film strength. I like to think of it more as the operational viscosity.

Cold temperature performance can be assessed by looking at MRV & CCS values, as I've said on here before. Unfortunately, that data isn't always published. You should know that TWS has the best CCS value I've ever seen on a 10w60 (4879, when most others are 6000+). Then again, MRV/CCS are two extremely low temperatures (-25 C & -30C, respectively), which very few M3s will ever see. I still think it is at least somewhat indicative of the oil's overall behavior when "cold".

In the end, the best way to assess an oil's performance for a particular application is to establish a baseline UOA and then take samples at regular intervals. You also need an oil pressure gauge to ensure that you can maintain sufficient pressure with a thinner oil, or that you are not increasing pressure beyond design limits with a thicker one. The M3's variable displacement oil pump helps negate some of this, which is why you see guys running 10w50, 5w50, 0w40, etc and still maintaining oil pressures within the 4-6 bar (58-87 psi) range that BMW specifies.

I suspect that the OP will not notice a huge difference among most 10w60s. But then again, we don't know much about how they drive the car.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by dparm

KV @ 40C & 100C are just two points on a curve. Viscosity index is the better indicator of how much oil's viscosity shifts in relation to temperature. Generally speaking, higher VIs are better.

Pretty much all 10w60s have a VI in the 170s. A few of the boutique oils are in the 180s, but that's still a fairly small difference (<10%). The ones that come to mind are Red Line and Renewable Lube.

You can think of HTHS as a good indicator operational viscosity because that's how it perform at very high temperatures, such as in the bearings and other nasty areas that need lubrication the most. HTHS is measured at 150 C. So yes, in a way, HTHS is a proxy for film strength. I like to think of it more as the operational viscosity.

Cold temperature performance can be assessed by looking at MRV & CCS values, as I've said on here before. Unfortunately, that data isn't always published. You should know that TWS has the best CCS value I've ever seen on a 10w60 (4879, when most others are 6000+). Then again, MRV/CCS are two extremely low temperatures (-25 C & -30C, respectively), which very few M3s will ever see. I still think it is at least somewhat indicative of the oil's overall behavior when "cold".

In the end, the best way to assess an oil's performance for a particular application is to establish a baseline UOA and then take samples at regular intervals. You also need an oil pressure gauge to ensure that you can maintain sufficient pressure with a thinner oil, or that you are not increasing pressure beyond design limits with a thicker one. The M3's variable displacement oil pump helps negate some of this, which is why you see guys running 10w50, 5w50, 0w40, etc and still maintaining oil pressures within the 4-6 bar (58-87 psi) range that BMW specifies.

I suspect that the OP will not notice a huge difference among most 10w60s. But then again, we don't know much about how they drive the car.

Good info as always, dparm. I continue to be amazed that oil companies do not provide viscosity data at more reasonable temps like 10-20 C.

Regarding mixing Motul oils, does that apply to their 300v line as well? I'm thinking a mix of their 15w-50 and 5w-40 could be nice.

[bigsurge]

Yessss back when I was looking at Motul they only had the 7100 series meant for motorcycles. I'de be curious how this stuff holds up I just sent in a an analysis on the twin turbo oil may try this out next time

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Good info as always, dparm. I continue to be amazed that oil companies do not provide viscosity data at more reasonable temps like 10-20 C.

Regarding mixing Motul oils, does that apply to their 300v line as well? I'm thinking a mix of their 15w-50 and 5w-40 could be nice.

You can approximate viscosity at any temperature with this graph:
http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

(note that the graph becomes increasingly inaccurate at extremes)


Yes, you can mix 300V. Note that 300V might not work as well as the 8100 series for long-drain intervals since it has a lower starting TBN.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by bigsurge

Yessss back when I was looking at Motul they only had the 7100 series meant for motorcycles. I'de be curious how this stuff holds up I just sent in a an analysis on the twin turbo oil may try this out next time

If it's API certified, it's probably fine. It will have a slightly different anti-wear additive package that favors the wet-clutch (shared sump system), such as higher boron levels.

I encourage you to call Motul directly and chat to their technical folks.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by dparm

You can approximate viscosity at any temperature with this graph:
http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

(note that the graph becomes increasingly inaccurate at extremes)


Yes, you can mix 300V. Note that 300V might not work as well as the 8100 series for long-drain intervals since it has a lower starting TBN.

Thanks. Yeah, I've looked at the numbers on those graphs before. The graph would lead one to believe that 300V 15W-50 is significantly less viscous at 10C and 20C than Castrol TWS. And yet, the HTHS of the two oils is about the same. 300V 15W-50 is 5.3 and you seem to believe Castrol TWS is 5.4. In my book, less viscosity at start up temps without losing ground on the HTHS value is a good thing.

Of course, the concern is that 40C and 100C are just two data points and extrapolating from them is sort of rough justice. And the VI of TWS is 173 compared to 164 for the 300V 15W-50.

The short interval doesn't bother me because I'm putting less than 3k miles on the car per year and will drain it at least every 12 months regardless, so a longer interval oil will kind of be wasted on my car. My main attraction to 300V is that it is regarded as a supremely smooth oil and may offer me a little more startup flow without sacrificing the HTHS on the top end.

[R3dliner]

Has anyone tried the 300v 10w-60? It's really expensive for 9 liters and don't know if it's worth it.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by R3dliner

Has anyone tried the 300v 10w-60? It's really expensive for 9 liters and don't know if it's worth it.

They don't make a 300V in 10W-60. Their 60 weight is 20W-60. That's aggressive.

[bigsurge]

The 8100 is the 10w60 for cars meanwhile they may have a 7100 meant for motorcycles with wet clutch as dparm explained.

[kaede]

Originally Posted by bigsurge

The 8100 is the 10w60 for cars meanwhile they may have a 7100 meant for motorcycles with wet clutch as dparm explained.

Have anyone actually tried using the Motul 8100 10w60? No discussion about that ever basically. Cheers!

[dparm]

Originally Posted by kaede

Have anyone actually tried using the Motul 8100 10w60? No discussion about that ever basically. Cheers!

What info are you hoping to find? What's there to talk about? On paper it's rather unremarkable, and you can't really tell the difference in operation between most 10w60s. I'm sure it would work fine, but to my earlier points, it's even thicker than TWS and most other 10w60s so all it will do is just sap power/MPG, run hotter, and probably force the oil pump into bypass mode more often.

If you must run it, thin it out a bit per my earlier post.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by dparm

What info are you hoping to find? What's there to talk about?

Ease up on the oil noobs man.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Ease up on the oil noobs man.

LOL okay. My point is that people are hoping there's some big secret here, or some magic unicorn blood that stops all wear and lasts forever....there's very little difference among most of the commonly-available 10w60s.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by dparm

LOL okay. My point is that people are hoping there's some big secret here, or some magic unicorn blood that stops all wear and lasts forever....there's very little difference among most of the commonly-available 10w60s.

Very true. If you are going to stay 10w-60, I see almost no reason to veer from Castrol TWS. (The only other oil I would run in its stead would be a Motul 300v in 10w-60, but one does not exist.)

Now the real question is whether there is any advantage to running a slightly lighter weight oil.