Harrop Owners Chime In!

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by RUG8RB8

Thank you Sir!!! Well, TBH the tune is still off, not terrible but not perfect either. I have this nagging breakup and now that I can monitor AFR’s, I can see they are too low, ie Rich (11.3-11.8) at WOT. Of course this is speculative, but I would prefer 12.0 to 12.2. Working with Mike to see what we can come up with. Once, everything is tweaked and working to a respectable level, I really want to go full E85, now that I have the flex fuel sensor installed. I am considering the AFD Kit in the near future. I am in Cali and the 91 premium here sucks balls. E85 is relatively plentiful in my area and downright cheap compared to 91. Mark shared a link here for me to read through about it. The actual kit is below:

AFD ProFlex E85 M3

Originally Posted by 1SloeEm3

What injectors are you planning to run on full e85? Your going to need minimum 600 cc injectors with a add on fuel pump depending on the boost you want to run. Would be sick to see what a Harrop kit is capable of putting down on full e85.

Here's an oldie but goodie forum thread on this exact topic albeit with a VF620 SC kit i.e. full E85 + VF Engineering 620 supercharger kit + Advanced Fuel Dynamics PROFLEX Commander installed.

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1462995

Keeping in mind the Harrop doesn't make the same steady state boost level as the VF620 kit does (6.5psi vs. 7.2 psi respectively), the above thread makes for an interesting read as food for thought for what a Harrop on full E85 with active fuel management might bring to the table. The VF620 SC kit on E85 with the ProFlex put down 600 RWHP and well over 400 ftlbs of torque.

[RUG8RB8]

That was a great read last night! Thanks for sharing! Looks like with the big blues currently installed and remainng at the current 6.5 psi max boost running full E85 will be just fine and save me a ton of money vs running the expensive 91 Cali crap supreme. If I am ever lucky enough to be selected for the Stage 2 upgrade kit, I will be investing in new injectors and fuel pump system. I am not a roll the dice kind of guy.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by RUG8RB8

That was a great read last night! Thanks for sharing! Looks like with the big blues currently installed and remaining at the current 6.5 psi max boost running full E85 will be just fine and save me a ton of money vs running the expensive 91 Cali crap supreme. If I am ever lucky enough to be selected for the Stage 2 upgrade kit, I will be investing in new injectors and fuel pump system. I am not a roll the dice kind of guy.

Based on the oldie but goodie thread linked above, it looks to me like Harrop SC + E85 tune + Full E85 Fuel + Advanced Fuel Dynamics PROFLEX Fuel Commander kit => More RWHP than Stage 2 can provide anyway and at lower fuel costs as a bonus... IF you ever do decide to go the AFD Pro route, log some baseline Dyno pulls now to be able to show gains after the switch to Full E85. Perhaps Malek at MRF Engineering can recommend a high quality Dyno Shop resource in the SFO area. Or perhaps other SFO Forum members can chime in with one.. So glad it all worked out in the end.
.
https://www.mrfengineering.com/
.

[RUG8RB8]

For sure going to do some Dyno pulls as soon as Mike and I work out some nagging minor issues. Nothing seems to go easy for me on this car, tried to install logging software yesterday and get this weird pop up error when the USB drivers start to load. No drivers, no connection so I still can’t log. I work at top secret high security facilities here in the Bay Area and don’t have my dedicated tuning laptops with me here in Cali, so this laptop is full of Anti Everything SW. The digital signatures from the cheap download aren’t recognized so it is not being accepted. I fly back to Florida this weekend, I will bring back one of my dedicated tuning laptops with me, should fix any issues.

[RUG8RB8]

I had one of my SW engineers assist me with an alternative driver package from FTDI and Boom!!! I am now data logging, Yay! I didn’t realize we were running 5 bar FPR on this platform, so these injectors are flowing more than I a was assuming, we know what assuming does….

Appears to be a ECU contolled variable FPR with a peak Damn near 6 bar at WOT! (88psi for us Americans). Most injector flow rates are published at 3 bar.

[DrFerry]

FPR = Fuel Pressure @ Rail with a potential for 6 bar at WOT ---> Wow. I had no idea the ECU and OEM Pump could ramp the rail pressure that high. That makes running full E85 on your Harrop setup (with 6.5psi max) and OEM fuel pump even more attractive.

[RUG8RB8]

New issue found after data logging. Unfortunately, ambient temperature is not one of the options to log, but when I made this pull it was in the high 40’s around 48° to be exact. Please note how high my IAT’s are 3-4 gear pull 60-111mph 117° when I had to let off go pedal on the freeway. We belive this is what is causing my hesitation.

[DRLane]

Very curious to hear what you learn here. Figured the higher IATs were a biproduct of the positive displacement design.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Very curious to hear what you learn here. Figured the higher IATs were a biproduct of the positive displacement design.

Good point, and it is .. but it also depends upon where Harrop put the IAT probe in the plenum i.e. mounted before the compression of ambient air or after its compression. Even with compression to 6.5psi of boost, I would guesstimate the increase in temperature over ambient due to compression to be +20F to +30F degrees worst case. Though it's been a while since high school physics (PV=nRT) and studied Boyle's Law. So if RUG8RB8 sees 48F on the dash I'd say ~70F IAT would be about right (worst case) if the IAT is measured after the air to water heat exchangers - and assuming the IAT probe itself is functioning correctly. Otherwise the DME would think the air is hot and thin and potentially lean the AFR when in fact the air is colder and thicker (more dense). Maybe RUG8RB8 is shedding some light on the 2500 to 3500RPM occasional stumble and tune drive-ability issue some Harrop owners have reported in this thread and the "Official" thread..

[DRLane]

I ❤️ engineers. You guys keep at it.

[BP709]

That level if iat doesn’t really bother me but the fact that it’s that far over ambient is surely an issue. I typically run approx 30 degrees over ambient when the vehicle is at full operating temp and has been on the road for awhile. It’s also not uncommon for me to see high 120 to low 130 iat here in the summer(Houston) and the car rips even with iat that high. What does concern me is the column on you’re log that says “fuel”, I’m assuming that is you’re AFR. 13’s is quite high for a boosted vehicle. 11.0-12.5 is more in line with safe AFR’s under boost.

[RUG8RB8]

Originally Posted by BP709

That level if iat doesn’t really bother me but the fact that it’s that far over ambient is surely an issue. I typically run approx 30 degrees over ambient when the vehicle is at full operating temp and has been on the road for awhile. It’s also not uncommon for me to see high 120 to low 130 iat here in the summer(Houston) and the car rips even with iat that high. What does concern me is the column on you’re log that says “fuel”, I’m assuming that is you’re AFR. 13’s is quite high for a boosted vehicle. 11.0-12.5 is more in line with safe AFR’s under boost.

Hello, sorry for late reply, busy traveling with the Holidays. The value you see posted for "Fuel" is titled badly or incomplete in the .CSV file. I am used too and would prefer duty cycle, but this is fully labeled "Fuel Pulse" in the software (units in milliseconds), which I believe is truly injector pulse width.

Back to IAT, I have since bought and installed two new IAT sensors, and honestly don't see much change in temps. BTW, if you are going below 12.0 @ 6psi that is way too rich, 12.0-12.2 should be a great window for WOT. My AFR's are 12.0-12.2 per my P3 multigauge, the logging software doesn't post AFR's directly but you can calculated from the Lambda's posted on the right hand side of the chart.

I would love to see what my IAT's are going to be in the summer here. It has never been hot so I really don't know yet. I get heat soaked to about 125 after a short drive in 50 degree ambient temps, after parking the car for an hour or so. Once there, (above 120) it is hard to bring down again with normal driving and 50 degree ambient. I would expect no higher than 85 degrees with this ambient, but maybe I am just over analyzing this, which I tend to do most of the time.

[RUG8RB8]

Hello, can anybody assist me with the manufacturer of this CF filter housing? Does Eventuri make one compatible with the Harrop? Thanks in advance.

[DrFerry]

RUG8RB8 Any news on your higher than usual IATs and heat soaking issues with the Harrop SC? Just wondering. It sort of went all quiet in here?

[RUG8RB8]

I have been on vacation in OC, so not much progress, but Mike told me I am barking up the wrong tree and it looks fine to him. He said that due to the design of the EBV the only time you are getting good air flow across the IAT sensor is under boost. Which is a conundrum, because during boost you are also heating the air under compression. He said the only way to see the IAT sensor drop steadily from cool ambient air would be to have a very long steady state drive at say 1.5-2.0psi.

That being said, I have seen much better start up temps after sealing the IAT senor O-ring with Hylomar racing blue, and a small amount of dielectric grease to the IAT sensor connectors. It was 45° this morning ambient, I drove to work 30 miles most all Freeway at 75-85mph speeds with a lucky no traffic morning. They slowly climbed from 61° at startup to 88° upon arrival. I had a couple short under boost pulls to 100 or so just to make sure I was still getting full boost. It is still solid at 6.5psi. I am getting a SES light now and says one of my pre-Cat O2 sensors needs to be addressed. I have already ordered 2 new sensors and will install this weekend. I may also go with your Irridium colder racing plugs, but these plugs are brand new and less than 2K miles so will not change them just yet without Mike’s blessing.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by RUG8RB8

I have been on vacation in OC, so not much progress, but Mike told me I am barking up the wrong tree and it looks fine to him. He said that due to the design of the EBV the only time you are getting good air flow across the IAT sensor is under boost. Which is a conundrum, because during boost you are also heating the air under compression. He said the only way to see the IAT sensor drop steadily from cool ambient air would be to have a very long steady state drive at say 1.5-2.0psi.

That being said, I have seen much better start up temps after sealing the IAT senor O-ring with Hylomar racing blue, and a small amount of dielectric grease to the IAT sensor connectors. It was 45° this morning ambient, I drove to work 30 miles most all Freeway at 75-85mph speeds with a lucky no traffic morning. They slowly climbed from 61° at startup to 88° upon arrival. I had a couple short under boost pulls to 100 or so just to make sure I was still getting full boost. It is still solid at 6.5psi. I am getting a SES light now and says one of my pre-Cat O2 sensors needs to be addressed. I have already ordered 2 new sensors and will install this weekend. I may also go with your Irridium colder racing plugs, but these plugs are brand new and less than 2K miles so will not change them just yet without Mike’s blessing.

Thanks for the update. Maybe you could relocated the IAT sensor from the compression side of the Harrop plenum, remount it into the plenum nose side and then plug the old IAT location near the EBV with a blanking plate or similar? Perhaps that's not necessary, but then why bother having an IAT sensor at all if it's reading erroneously and potentially tricking the DME into thinking the ambient temp is 125F (based on your post and Excel file shown above) and thus altering the ignition timing (?). Just as an FYI: Here's a few links below to thread posts regarding the blasphemous spark plugs that last for ages only in a boosted forced induction application..
.
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1763451
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=71
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=60
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=63
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=58
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=55
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=53
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=43
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...68&postcount=8

Edit: I was told the only reason these NGK Iridium Racing plugs work so well in boosted application is because in boosted applications the misfire sensing routine has been 'coded out' with (by) the supercharger tune(r). Not that these plugs ever misfired when I was running them.

[rotomoto712]

Add me to the list of satisfied owners!!!

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YY5jhAUbGzM



When the weather warms up, I plan on seeing what this thing will do on the Autobahn!

[RUG8RB8]

I have been wanted to post an update for a while, but life has got in the way, my apologies for the tardiness. I have completed quite a few services and part exchanges recently and even squeezed in a dyno session. Many thanks need to go out to my friend Mark for all his help and assistance via the phone. I am not hip enough to tag I suppose, so I will have to live with this for now. I was run off the road by another motorist swerving to miss an obstacle in the road and I hit a giant flood induced Cali pothole. It snapped my right tension strut. After a tow home I got lucky because 034Motorsports which is 1 mile from my office had a reasonably price on a set of 4 upgraded pieces in stock. I also decided to install the Turner Motorsports aluminum belly pan while I was down there. That did not install properly due to the Harrop heat exchanger lines and pump, but I did get it suitable for me. I also replaced all the black OEM heat exchanger hoses with nice blue reinforced silicone heater hose and new SS Oetiker clamps. Afterwards, I replaced all spark plugs with the NGK Iridium’s per Mark's suggestion along with new Bosch Pre-Cat O2 sensors. The new O2 sensors actually went in about a week earlier than the plugs, I mention this because I thought the new O2 sensors made the car run quite a bit better. That was until I put the new plugs in, hands down that is the Biggest difference I have made on the car’s tune/running. It runs so amazingly smooth with the new plugs. I am going to post the dyno sheet, I want to a non BMW dyno shop so he pulled up at 7,500 and afterwards I was heat soaked so it is what it is. This is on crap Cali 91 super, so I am pretty pleased at 7,450 I hit 481/394.

Click to see lousy video I made on phone:

https://youtube.com/shorts/bE_IeR7zwho?feature=share

[CamasM3e93]

Originally Posted by RUG8RB8

I have been wanted to post an update for a while, but life has got in the way, my apologies for the tardiness. I have completed quite a few services and part exchanges recently and even squeezed in a dyno session. Many thanks need to go out to my friend Mark for all his help and assistance via the phone. I am not hip enough to tag I suppose, so I will have to live with this for now. I was run off the road by another motorist swerving to miss an obstacle in the road and I hit a giant flood induced Cali pothole. It snapped my right tension strut. After a tow home I got lucky because 034Motorsports which is 1 mile from my office had a reasonably price on a set of 4 upgraded pieces in stock. I also decided to install the Turner Motorsports aluminum belly pan while I was down there. That did not install properly due to the Harrop heat exchanger lines and pump, but I did get it suitable for me. I also replaced all the black OEM heat exchanger hoses with nice blue reinforced silicone heater hose and new SS Oetiker clamps. Afterwards, I replaced all spark plugs with the NGK Iridium’s per Mark's suggestion along with new Bosch Pre-Cat O2 sensors. The new O2 sensors actually went in about a week earlier than the plugs, I mention this because I thought the new O2 sensors made the car run quite a bit better. That was until I put the new plugs in, hands down that is the Biggest difference I have made on the car’s tune/running. It runs so amazingly smooth with the new plugs. I am going to post the dyno sheet, I want to a non BMW dyno shop so he pulled up at 7,500 and afterwards I [...]

Little typo, I think you mean 481 wheel horsepower (rather than 418). Are you running with both your primary and secondary cats?

[RUG8RB8]

Originally Posted by CamasM3e93

Little typo, I think you mean 481 wheel horsepower (rather than 418). Are you running with both your primary and secondary cats?

Thanks, corrected yes 481 at 7450. I have no cats installed, just resonators.

[rotomoto712]

Wow that engine bay looks spotless! BTW don't forget to put the cap back on your SC Coolant Reservoir tank

[RUG8RB8]

Yes, I had lid off while replacing lines, I had to bleed system after that. Engine bay is getting there, still need some final touches. I need the Dinan CF strut braces and the Eventuri CF covers just waiting for tax return, Ha! I begged “literally” Eventuri to make a Harrop equipped intake but they not so politely declined. We can’t make enough profit to justify it. Even though it would be a very simple modification to their existing kit. Oh well…