Cost of rod bearing replacement

[budski]

Originally Posted by kerkiraios00

Are there any precautions to take? Like change your oil on time and don't over rev when she's cold?

That and send oil samples to Blackstone Labs for analysis so they can check whether or not your metal contents are high. This isn't the end-all be-all but should give you an idea.

If you go to Blackstone Labs website, they'll send you a free test kit. You fill it up, send it in, and then they'll charge you $25.

[kerkiraios00]

Originally Posted by budski

That and send oil samples to Blackstone Labs for analysis so they can check whether or not your metal contents are high. This isn't the end-all be-all but should give you an idea.

If you go to Blackstone Labs website, they'll send you a free test kit. You fill it up, send it in, and then they'll charge you $25.

Will do thanks I just went on their website..

[BMRLVR]

I agree with most of what is said in this thread with the exception of the recommendation to stay with the 10W60. I honestly think that the 10W60 may be a contributing factor to the bearing wear on daily driven cars. Every time the car is started with 10W60 oil that is 150F or less the bearings are starved for oil on the initial startup and until operating temperature is reached. A lighter oil isn't a fix but it is definitely a way to prolong the life of the bearings!

As for replacing bearings as a maintenance item, I think that is ludicrous. If you have no bearing issues with your engines, leave them alone, if you do have issues, take the time to do the repair right by sending the crank out and having the journals sized. This way you won't have to replace bearings sometime in the future since the actual problem causing the wear would be corrected!

My $0.02!

[budski]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I agree with most of what is said in this thread with the exception of the recommendation to stay with the 10W60. I honestly think that the 10W60 may be a contributing factor to the bearing wear on daily driven cars. Every time the car is started with 10W60 oil that is 150F or less the bearings are starved for oil on the initial startup and until operating temperature is reached. A lighter oil isn't a fix but it is definitely a way to prolong the life of the bearings!

As for replacing bearings as a maintenance item, I think that is ludicrous. If you have no bearing issues with your engines, leave them alone, if you do have issues, take the time to do the repair right by sending the crank out and having the journals sized. This way you won't have to replace bearings sometime in the future since the actual problem causing the wear would be corrected!

My $0.02!

So I read the epic S85 bearing thread and called multiple shops east of the Mississippi and brought up the thoughts/points, including yours, that intuitively make complete sense. My car is currently at iND getting a blower installed and wanted to see if it would be worth shipping it to one of the known speed shops outside of Cali.

The general concensus was that just increasing the distance between the rods and rod bearings would not necessarily be "a cure".

As much as it sucks money wise, the conclusion I gathered from those multiple engine builders is that if a particular engine has a rod bearing issue then we have two options. A) Build the engine and possibly encounter seperate issues ($12k-$20k) or B) Replace the rod bearings as a regular maintenance item every 50-80k miles {$3-$4k)

I currently have just under 14k miles and my personal game plan is to send Blackstone Labs a sample at my next oil change, drive 5-7.5k miles, send it in again, then determine if I have an issue. I know that having only two data points isn't statistically good enough to determine a trend in metal content but that thread scared the $hit out of me!

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by budski

So I read the epic S85 bearing thread and called multiple shops east of the Mississippi and brought up the thoughts/points, including yours, that intuitively make complete sense. My car is currently at iND getting a blower installed and wanted to see if it would be worth shipping it to one of the known speed shops outside of Cali.

The general concensus was that just increasing the distance between the rods and rod bearings would not necessarily be "a cure".

As much as it sucks money wise, the conclusion I gathered from those multiple engine builders is that if a particular engine has a rod bearing issue then we have two options. A) Build the engine and possibly encounter seperate issues ($12k-$20k) or B) Replace the rod bearings as a regular maintenance item every 50-80k miles {$3-$4k)

I currently have just under 14k miles and my personal game plan is to send Blackstone Labs a sample at my next oil change, drive 5-7.5k miles, send it in again, then determine if I have an issue. I know that having only two data points isn't statistically good enough to determine a trend in metal content but that thread scared the $hit out of me!

No offence to the shops you spoke to since I don't know who they are, but, what they told you is laughable! 0.001" is just plain too tight for a rod bearing, especially in a high revving engine running a 60W oil. Yes additional clearance "will" fix the bearing issue, plain and simple! Forget talking to speed shops........ Call a machine shop that builds engine and see what they tell you! Many shops/people work on engines, but that don't make them qualified as engine builders.

Clearances are clearances and clearance recommendations on engines have not changed in a long time. Yes, some minute differences do exist depending on the service requirements and some race teams are going a little tighter now but they aren't cutting clearance recommendations in half! They are reducing clearance by say 0.0005" or 0.00075" which still puts them in a safe range. If the S65 had even 0.0015" on the rods I probably wouldn't worry, but with 0.001" I am not comfortable.

[budski]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

No offence to the shops you spoke to since I don't know who they are, but, what they told you is laughable! 0.001" is just plain too tight for a rod bearing, especially in a high revving engine running a 60W oil. Yes additional clearance "will" fix the bearing issue, plain and simple! Forget talking to speed shops........ Call a machine shop that builds engine and see what they tell you! Many shops/people work on engines, but that don't make them qualified as engine builders.

Clearances are clearances and clearance recommendations on engines have not changed in a long time. Yes, some minute differences do exist depending on the service requirements and some race teams are going a little tighter now but they aren't cutting clearance recommendations in half! They are reducing clearance by say 0.0005" or 0.00075" which still puts them in a safe range. If the S65 had even 0.0015" on the rods I probably wouldn't worry, but with 0.001" I am not comfortable.

I completely agree with your points as I cannot comprehend even a .0015" clearance with respect to the rod bearings. I misspoke when I said speedshop and meant BMW engine builders. If it means anything, they would indeed increase the clearance if they were to "build" the engine. One of the shops main concern was that by just increasing the rod bearing clearance (carrillo rods, VAC bearings), it would upset the balance of the other parts and would not feel comfortable on just replacing the parts in question. My little knowledge of rods/bearings comes from online readings and cannot add much benefit to this topic other than what information I was passed.

Heck, my best shot would be to take out the rods, sand them down, and then put them back in

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

No offence to the shops you spoke to since I don't know who they are, but, what they told you is laughable! 0.001" is just plain too tight for a rod bearing, especially in a high revving engine running a 60W oil. Yes additional clearance "will" fix the bearing issue, plain and simple! Forget talking to speed shops........ Call a machine shop that builds engine and see what they tell you! Many shops/people work on engines, but that don't make them qualified as engine builders.

Clearances are clearances and clearance recommendations on engines have not changed in a long time. Yes, some minute differences do exist depending on the service requirements and some race teams are going a little tighter now but they aren't cutting clearance recommendations in half! They are reducing clearance by say 0.0005" or 0.00075" which still puts them in a safe range. If the S65 had even 0.0015" on the rods I probably wouldn't worry, but with 0.001" I am not comfortable.

I agree sir, some say the engineers at bmw know what they are doing. If that was the case we wouldn't have all the pictures of cavitation going on with the m5 and m3.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I agree sir, some say the engineers at bmw know what they are doing. If that was the case we wouldn't have all the pictures of cavitation going on with the m5 and m3.

I think the engineers at BMW have some things figured out quite well, but obviously they need to hire someone in their engine team that understands hydrodynamic lubrication and tribology a little better!

[JABSprings]

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

If you do I recommend the trip through Colorado, just not in your beautiful M in January!
I'll swap them out for you and we can work out a trade of sorts...Maybe I can set you up with some local cars to tune if you want to make a day of it. :

Consider this my RSVP.

[bigjae1976]

OK everyone, Bruce Willis did not actually blow up on the asteroid, that was a movie...just like your S65 won't spontaneously blow bits of rods out the side of your engine block. So take a deep breath.

Yes, this is a high maintenance engine. Yes, oil analysis is a good idea. Yes, changing your oil more frequently than the OEM interval is a good idea. Replacing your rod bearings at 50k-70k street miles? That's ridiculous.

These engines will last well beyond 100k. SOME will spin bearings. That risk is the price your pay for driving a RACING engine that revs to 8400 RPM on the street. Most race engines are rebuilt after a race or maybe a couple of races for less well funded teams.

Unless your car is seeing nothing but track use, then a 50k mile rod bearing replacement makes sense. Otherwise, 100k miles makes more sense. Even that is borderline insanely cautious. If my observations on the S54 hold true with the S65, then rod bearing failure rates will increase at a much higher rate after 100k miles.

With that said, an S54 rod bearing job goes for about $1300 (labor + parts). I would expect the S65 to be slightly higher...maybe $1700ish. If you look at less than $2k or the cost of engine replacement, a SENSIBLE approach to managing this makes sense.

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by JABSprings

Consider this my RSVP.

Stop stalking me!

[bigtracing]

I wish I was reading this on the should I or should I not worry about my rod bearings.... instead I'm on the side where I have oil drain pan full of metal. going damn wish I did something about this. I bought the car from a grocery getter type person and I babied the car. send out a sample to blackstone at least so you have some piece of mind.
ill be starting a thread soon with my teardown and rebuild.

[Cidle]

Originally Posted by bigtracing

I wish I was reading this on the should I or should I not worry about my rod bearings.... instead I'm on the side where I have oil drain pan full of metal. going damn wish I did something about this. I bought the car from a grocery getter type person and I babied the car. send out a sample to blackstone at least so you have some piece of mind.
ill be starting a thread soon with my teardown and rebuild.

Sorry to hear about your findings bud!
Have an 08 myself, have yet to send out oil samples but I do inspect the oil filters......

[BuckRodgers]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I agree with most of what is said in this thread with the exception of the recommendation to stay with the 10W60. I honestly think that the 10W60 may be a contributing factor to the bearing wear on daily driven cars. Every time the car is started with 10W60 oil that is 150F or less the bearings are starved for oil on the initial startup and until operating temperature is reached. A lighter oil isn't a fix but it is definitely a way to prolong the life of the bearings!

As for replacing bearings as a maintenance item, I think that is ludicrous. If you have no bearing issues with your engines, leave them alone, if you do have issues, take the time to do the repair right by sending the crank out and having the journals sized. This way you won't have to replace bearings sometime in the future since the actual problem causing the wear would be corrected!

My $0.02!

Interesting that you mention this. I have talked to people who build dedicated M3 track cars that claim the 10W60 TWS is crap oil. A couple swear by running 15W50 and said they have had 0 issues with bearing wear.

[BURAKUSTA]

Do you guys really pay 100 dollars for 1 hour

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by BuckRodgers

Interesting that you mention this. I have talked to people who build dedicated M3 track cars that claim the 10W60 TWS is crap oil. A couple swear by running 15W50 and said they have had 0 issues with bearing wear.

Not to get into another oil debate but what is funny about the mobil 15-50 is it has more zinc than tws and flows better at cold temps although it being rated as a 15wt.

[JS11]

BMRLVR, check this out

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...eat-Stuff.aspx

If one decides to replace the bearings, or rebuild, or stroke our motor, do you think it's worth it to treat the internals with this WPC process? It doesn't seem to be outrageously expensive.

[cprx7]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

With that said, an S54 rod bearing job goes for about $1300 (labor + parts). I would expect the S65 to be slightly higher...maybe $1700ish. If you look at less than $2k or the cost of engine replacement, a SENSIBLE approach to managing this makes sense.

This!!! I was quoted exactly this $ amount for the rod bearing job

[tom @ eas]

We are in the middle of inspection on a MY08 M3 w/ 104K on the odometer, VF540 was installed at 96K:







Here's Rod #8 in the meantime, we'll see how the others appear when removed.

[CSanto]

^^ is there anything wrong with that one? Looks ok to me.

[kawasaki00]

Holy hell, those bearings are absolutely destroyed. The copper has delaminated all the way to the steel shell. Not much longer before you would have been putting a new engine in that thing.

Anyone else want to argue that the rod bearings need replacing at around 75k? The proof is in the pictures.

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by JS11

BMRLVR, check this out

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...eat-Stuff.aspx

If one decides to replace the bearings, or rebuild, or stroke our motor, do you think it's worth it to treat the internals with this WPC process? It doesn't seem to be outrageously expensive.

wow, that's amazing. Can it be too slippery that and oil film cannot be formed if the crank is treated with this WPC process? Definitely interested to learn of the opinion of the big 3 on this.