Essex/AP Racing CP9449 and CP9451 users interest in PFC 7768 332 and 84 Compounds

[M3SQRD]

I’m trying to gauge the interest of CP9449 and CP9451 owners in running the PFC 332 compound in the PFC 7768 17 mm thick pad (to match the existing PFC 7790 25 mm thick pad in the 331 and 333 compounds already available for the CP9668/CP9660 calipers). Are people interested in running the PFC 7768 in the 332 compound?

Also, is there any interest in running the PFC 7768 in the 84 compound? The 82 compound should be available for the 7790 25 mm thick pad because it is used in race calipers in Pro GT race classes.

[kolosy]

is this the old style AP caliper that's the same as the Paragon one? I'd be down to try a 17mm pad.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by kolosy

is this the old style AP caliper that's the same as the Paragon one? I'd be down to try a 17mm pad.

The front pad is the PFC 7790 (and a few cross references Cobalt AP19, Hawk HB109 and Ferodo FRP3014) and it’s already carried by BimmerWorld in the 25 mm thick version (Alcon/BW 6420 and Essex/AP CP9668 both use the 25 mm thick pad). If there’s enough interest in the CP9660 caliper with the 18 mm thick version then I’d also ask about it.

The rear pad is the PFC 7768 17 mm thick pad (and a few cross references Cobalt AP13, Hawk HB718 and Ferodo FRP3018).

Pad profiles

[amg6975]

Since were here, does PFC/Bimmerworld recommend the 331/332 combo even if you have a front BBK and stock rears?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by amg6975

Since were here, does PFC/Bimmerworld recommend the 331/332 combo even if you have a front BBK and stock rears?

PFC/BW has the 332 rear compound for the stock e9x M3 rear floating caliper. They were developed to be used together. However, I’m aware of at least a handful of people who have used the front 333 compound only. I’m not aware of anyone running just the 331 front. There are probably a few rear pads that might work well with the front 331 but it’ll likely be a trial and error exercise until you find a combo that works well together.

[bipp]

Still have an extra set of rear pads and I'm on OEM rears still - but down the line will probably move to the AP rear kit inevitably. Count me in as interested - if there's a GB to reach some MOQ I'll place an order as well and just stash it for the future.

Could be worth posting this to some Porsche guys if you know any - I know GT3s actually have new PFC BBKs made for them (or the OEM PFC Cup kit), but I believe the Essex kit for them (GT3/4) is 9661/9449. Seems relevant for them as well since the 911 GT3R and Cayman GT4 racecars seem to run 82/84 per that PFC doc.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

Still have an extra set of rear pads and I'm on OEM rears still - but down the line will probably move to the AP rear kit inevitably. Count me in as interested - if there's a GB to reach some MOQ I'll place an order as well and just stash it for the future.

Could be worth posting this to some Porsche guys if you know any - I know GT3s actually have new PFC BBKs made for them (or the OEM PFC Cup kit), but I believe the Essex kit for them (GT3/4) is 9661/9449. Seems relevant for them as well since the 911 GT3R and Cayman GT4 racecars seem to run 82/84 per that PFC doc.

Sounds good.

It pisses me off that PFC stopped offering brake kits and replacement rotors for all cars. I stocked up on z54/z45 and z31/z31 rotors so I’d have rotors to last at least 15 years. I know Coleman Racing will make replacements for very reasonable prices but nothing compares to PFC V2 and V3 rotors. Fast forward 1/2 of a decade and PFC is again offering brake kits but only to Porsches at ~$15k per kit. Why only Porsches? I bet they’d sell more BMW M brake kits than Porsche kits. Rant over.

I don’t know any Porsche guys running Essex/AP Racing brake kits. There are plenty of Corvette guys that also run Essex kits. Plenty of other car groups with varying levels of running Essex kits. It would be awesome to get all of the cars that use CP9668 (or other front calipers that use the PFC 7790 25 mm thick pad) and CP9449/9451 to see what their level of interest in the 331/332 and/or 82/84. The more I look into the 82/84, I think the 82/84 may be the better combo due to its dual capability of being used as a top professional endurance pad as well as being able to be used as a medium range sprint pad with excellent pad and rotor wear rates. However, I think it would be a tough sell to get BW to stock both 332 and 82/84 pads vs. just stocking 9449/9451 7768 332 pads.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Sounds good.

It pisses me off that PFC stopped offering brake kits and replacement rotors for all cars. I stocked up on z54/z45 and z31/z31 rotors so I’d have rotors to last at least 15 years. I know Coleman Racing will make replacements for very reasonable prices but nothing compares to PFC V2 and V3 rotors. Fast forward 1/2 of a decade and PFC is again offering brake kits but only to Porsches at ~$15k per kit. Why only Porsches? I bet they’d sell more BMW M brake kits than Porsche kits. Rant over.

I don’t know any Porsche guys running Essex/AP Racing brake kits. There are plenty of Corvette guys that also run Essex kits. Plenty of other car groups with varying levels of running Essex kits. It would be awesome to get all of the cars that use CP9668 (or other front calipers that use the PFC 7790 25 mm thick pad) and CP9449/9451 to see what their level of interest in the 331/332 and/or 82/84. The more I look into the 82/84, I think the 82/84 may be the better combo due to its dual capability of being used as a top professional endurance pad as well as being able to be used as a medium range sprint pad with excellent pad and rotor wear rates. However, I think it would be a tough sell to get BW to stock both 332 and 82/84 pads vs. just stocking 9449/9451 7768 332 pads.

It doesn't really make sense why PFC decided to kill off something that was good, popular, and presumably made them money. I know they're an OEM supplier for Porsche now, but still - to dump the rest of the market?

I think there's a few that run APs on 991 GT3s around here, as well as some people with Corvettes. Definitely not as popular as with the M market here though, at least from what I can tell.

The 82/84 might be a better combo for most HPDE cars - maybe it makes sense to stock both combos, just like how both Ferodo 1.11 and 3.12 options are available. Hopefully BW is amicable to the idea!

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by bipp

It doesn't really make sense why PFC decided to kill off something that was good, popular, and presumably made them money.

They killed off the successful PFC-01 in very popular pad shapes that met those tests.

[Estoril Blue]

I looked up the 332 to see how it compared to other compounds I know/have used. Thought I save someone from the same look-up.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

I looked up the 332 to see how it compared to other compounds I know/have used. Thought I save someone from the same look-up.

I've seen this graph and originally thought the 332 was closer to a DS2500 or a street pad. However, M3SQRD (and people who have run the 331/332 combo on track) say it pairs well with the 331, and it seems to be Bimmerworld's choice of combo.

I'm pretty excited to try it out later this year - would just be great if the option was there to upgrade to a rear BBK down the line if I end up liking the combo. 82/84 mightt be more ideal but it doesn't seem like it has even the OEM E9x rear shape.

https://pfc.parts/wp-content/uploads...pound-pads.pdf

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

They killed off the successful PFC-01 in very popular pad shapes that met those tests.

As they develop new compounds, they start to retire the older compounds. As an example, the 01 was developed into the 05 and then the 05 was developed into the 11. I’m not sure why the 11 is being discontinued because it is their only pad with a progressive mu-temp curve.

The 332 mu-temp curve is deceiving. If it can handle turning a 1:51:xx lap time and repeated 1:56:xx-1:58:xx lap times on the VIR full coase then I would not spend much time looking at the mu-temp curve. The 331/332 was developed while racing the f82GT4.

[M3SQRD]

Seems like there isn’t much interest in the 331/332 compounds. What about the 82/84 compounds. 82/84 compounds sound like they are an excellent endurance compound that can also be used as a medium distance sprint compound. Is there any interest in the 82/87 PFC 7790 82 25 mm/PFC 7768 17 mm combo?

[bipp]

I'm down to pick up a set of 82/84 if it happens. I won't be able to get a "taste" of them first like I would with 331/332 on AP/OEM F/R, but it sounds like the best combo for me based on their brochure. Maybe if there's enough interest, BW will start stocking 82/84 for OEM shapes as well like they have for 331/332 - or maybe I'll just have the set for when I get the CP9449 eventually lol.

Quoting it here for anyone who didn't click the link:

82 Compound: New Front Endurance Compound
82 Compound is the new standard for PFC endurance compounds. It has gained an immediate following upon release in the endurance sportscar world after its debut win in the 2023 24hrs of Nürburgring. The 82 is a degressive pad specifically designed to work together with ABS to give superior control and a smooth release, minimizing lockups. The 82 compound has an extremely low wear rate while simultaneously being extra gentle on discs, making this compound the ultimate endurance option. Long distances aren’t this pad’s only strong suit though! With a very high initial bite, this pad can also be used for medium distance sprint applications, where ABS compatibility and a low wear rate are requested. The 82 compound was
developed by working closely with experienced teams and drivers to ultimately tailor this pad to have the perfect combination of durability and speed!

84 Compound: New Rear Endurance Compound
84 Compound is the newest Rear endurance compound in the PFC lineup. It shook the endurance sportscar world when it took its first win upon release at the 2023 24hr of Nürburgring. This pad is heavily degressive to work together with modern ABS systems, providing a stable, controllable rear end and minimized Lockups. Its high initial bite allows this pad to not only be the perfect low wear endurance option, but also can be used in medium distance applications. Like its Front counterpart (82) the 84 compound has an extremely low wear rate, while being gentle on discs. All of this paired with superior modulation creates a pad that finds its home in being crazy durable, and crazy quick! It was developed alongside experienced teams and drivers to create a compound that sets a new standard in speed for the endurance sports car world.

Long pad life, easy on rotors, good for medium distance applications - this might be the perfect HPDE combo.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

I'm down to pick up a set of 82/84 if it happens. I won't be able to get a "taste" of them first like I would with 331/332 on AP/OEM F/R, but it sounds like the best combo for me based on their brochure. Maybe if there's enough interest, BW will start stocking 82/84 for OEM shapes as well like they have for 331/332 - or maybe I'll just have the set for when I get the CP9449 eventually lol.

Quoting it here for anyone who didn't click the link:


Long pad life, easy on rotors, good for medium distance applications - this might be the perfect HPDE combo.

Thanks!

I think the advantage of the 82 and 84 compounds is they are an endurance pad with a strong initial bite and excellent wear rates yet they also can be used in a medium distance sprint race. As you’ve stated, his pad compound combo could make them one of the best for HPDE events. I hope there’s more interest in the 82/84 combo than there was in the 331/332 combo.

I still don’t understand why PFC decided to discontinue the 11 compound when it was probably the most used PFC pad in HPDE. Also, it’s their only highly progressive pad and it’s not being replaced by an improved version (e.g., the 01 was modified to create the 05 and then the 05 was modified to create the 11 and then they stop making the 11 compound ). I wonder if pro race teams prefer the 13, 15 and 39 compounds?

[M3SQRD]

PFC 82-84 compound brochure
https://pfc.parts/wp-content/uploads...ance%20option.

[amg6975]

Is it hard to find pads for these calipers or just that they don't make the 332 for it?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by amg6975

Is it hard to find pads for these calipers or just that they don't make the 332 for it?

It’s hard to find PFC rear 9968 pads in all compounds. I know Hawk usually has the CP9668 and 9660 front pads but I’m not sure about the 9968 rear pads. My backup pads are Cobalt XR1 (similar to my favorite discontinued PFC 05 compound which was modified to produce the 11 compound which was my favorite of their current compounds until it was recently discontinued) and Carbotech XP20. Hawk DTC70 is my final backup pad if I’m really desperate. Bimmerworld did stock the 11 compound once for the 9968. I think it took a while to go thru the 20 sets so they’re hesitant to stock more 9968 compounds. I think most owners end up using the Ferodo compounds Essex carries. However, I’m not a Ferodo fan. PFC all the way! I’ve been a PFC guy since the very first time I ran the 05 on my e46 M3 in 2006. Was running the DTC70 before trying PFC and I immediately stopped using the DTC70 pads. There was no comparison between the overall performance of the 05 and DTC70. Between my e46 M3 track car with AP Racing brake kits and two e92 M3s with PFC z54/z45 and z31/z31 brake kits, I’ve tried PFC compounds 97, 01, 03, 05, 07, 11, 13, 15 and 39. 15 and 39 really need lots of downforce and super sticky tires. All other compounds are useable and derived from the 01, 03, 05 and 07 compounds.

I’m trying to find out the interest level of the 7768 17 mm thick pad in the 332 and 84 compounds for the CP9449/9451 calipers. The 7790 25 mm thick pad used in the AP Racing CP9668 caliper is also used in the Alcon/BW CR6420 front caliper so BW stocks the 7790 pad in the 331 and 333 compounds. I’m also trying to gauge the interest in the 7790 pad in the 82 compound. From the information available on the 82 and 84, it appears the 82/84 has more performance than the 331/332 and can be used as a medium distance sprint compound. However, I’m not saying the 331/332 compounds are inferior to the 82/84 compounds considering they can survive 1:51:xx-1:56:xx lap times on VIR full. I have many track friends that absolutely love the 331/332. I think the 82/84 will be a better match to my subjective weighted compound characteristics. I bet I’d enjoy the 331/332 if the 82/84 didn’t exist. Coming from the 11/11 highly progressive pad to the 82/84 and 331/332 digressive pads, I think it’ll take a track weekend to readjust your braking to get the most out of the new digressive pads. It probably requires a higher leg force, particularly at the last half of the braking zone, compared to the 11 compound.

[MPower7]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Sounds good.

It pisses me off that PFC stopped offering brake kits and replacement rotors for all cars. I stocked up on z54/z45 and z31/z31 rotors so I’d have rotors to last at least 15 years. I know Coleman Racing will make replacements for very reasonable prices but nothing compares to PFC V2 and V3 rotors. Fast forward 1/2 of a decade and PFC is again offering brake kits but only to Porsches at ~$15k per kit. Why only Porsches? I bet they’d sell more BMW M brake kits than Porsche kits. Rant over.

I don’t know any Porsche guys running Essex/AP Racing brake kits. There are plenty of Corvette guys that also run Essex kits. Plenty of other car groups with varying levels of running Essex kits. It would be awesome to get all of the cars that use CP9668 (or other front calipers that use the PFC 7790 25 mm thick pad) and CP9449/9451 to see what their level of interest in the 331/332 and/or 82/84. The more I look into the 82/84, I think the 82/84 may be the better combo due to its dual capability of being used as a top professional endurance pad as well as being able to be used as a medium range sprint pad with excellent pad and rotor wear rates. However, I think it would be a tough sell to get BW to stock both 332 and 82/84 pads vs. just stocking 9449/9451 7768 332 pads.

Are they not offering replacement rotors for the z54 anymore. This is a problem if so.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by MPower7

Are they not offering replacement rotors for the z54 anymore. This is a problem if so.

NLA. I think they stopped producing them in 2018 or 2019. You could try Coleman Racing, Girodisc or Peragon and ask them about making rotors for the z54, and z45, brake kit. Coleman will do it and their pricing is surprisingly inexpensive for just two custom rotors. They’ve been making custom racing rotors for decades. Girodisc and Peragon require a minimum of 10 discs (20 total for left and right).

[eegstwozero]

I love PFC pads, but it became too difficult to constantly scour the internet for 7790 and 7768 pads for the F&R AP Kit (9668/9449). I decided to just go with Cobalt pads from now on because they are always available. Until I can see some consistency in stock levels for those PFC pad shapes, I’ll probably stick with Cobalt.

BTW I had a PFC Z54 kit on my E92 with v3 rotors and just received an email from Bimmerworld last week saying that they are going to start stocking those rotors again. Huge win for those who still run that kit. Apparently Bimmerworld secured future producuction runs with PFC for that kit which is awesome.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by eegstwozero

I love PFC pads, but it became too difficult to constantly scour the internet for 7790 and 7768 pads for the F&R AP Kit (9668/9449). I decided to just go with Cobalt pads from now on because they are always available. Until I can see some consistency in stock levels for those PFC pad shapes, I’ll probably stick with Cobalt.

BTW I had a PFC Z54 kit on my E92 with v3 rotors and just received an email from Bimmerworld last week saying that they are going to start stocking those rotors again. Huge win for those who still run that kit. Apparently Bimmerworld secured future producuction runs with PFC for that kit which is awesome.

PFC 7768 pads can be made from 7766 and 7767 pads by enlarging the pad IR (reduce the pad radial depth). Are you interested in either the 331/332 or 84/82 compound pairs? Cobalt, Carbotech and G-Loc offer 7790 25 mm- thick pads and 7768 17 mm-thick pads.

That’s great news. PFC requires 20 rotors before they’ll manufacture a specific rotor set.