DCT Leak Recurring Problem?

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

Most of the items outlined have nothing to do with a high revving engine. It seems you are ok with several transmission seals failing in three years or less, or 30,000 miles (in some cases far less). How about mufflers cracking or baffles coming loose inside? Is that part of the performance car experience?

Are you kidding me? Did you just say that a trans issue has nothing to do with a high revving engine?

Let me help you out here: this was the first DCT rates to 9,000rpms, followed by the 458 and the 991GT3.

Transmission has nothing to do with the engine-----this type of lack of basic knowledge is why BMW had to change their M engines and must be frustrated 24/7.

Cheers,
e46e92

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Are you kidding me? Did you just say that a trans issue has nothing to do with a high revving engine?

Let me help you out here: this was the first DCT rates to 9,000rpms, followed by the 458 and the 991GT3.

Transmission has nothing to do with the engine-----this type of lack of basic knowledge is why BMW had to change their M engines and must be frustrated 24/7.

Cheers,
e46e92

So why don't you go ahead and send a "Thank You" note to BMW telling them what a great job they did even though your transmission is leaking?

You are being pretty naïve. What does the rating have anything to do with the actual stresses on the internals of the DCT? I don't think the engine spins to 9,000 RPMs in stock form so I'm not sure what the rating has to do with anything. And it's not as if on a daily driven car the engine is spinning at 8,400 RPMs all the time (or even most of the time). We're talking about basic seals here. The engine oil pan seal sees a lot more stress than does the DCT oil pan yet engine oil pan seals do not seem to be prone to leaks (or any other part of the engine, for that matter). If you can get the engine to seal properly under these conditions, explain why the there's a different story for the DCT? Do you think BMW was expecting to have to replace DCT seals within warranty on what seems to be a fairly frequent basis?

If you think it is acceptable for the DCT's seals to give out or for the bolts to work their way loose in the relatively short amount of time that they seem to, then that's your opinion and you can be happy every time you need them replaced. If you transmission is toast, you'll probably be even happier because after all, it's rated to 9,000 RPMs.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

So why don't you go ahead and send a "Thank You" note to BMW telling them what a great job they did even though your transmission is leaking?

You are being pretty nave. What does the rating have anything to do with the actual stresses on the internals of the DCT? I don't think the engine spins to 9,000 RPMs in stock form so I'm not sure what the rating has to do with anything. And it's not as if on a daily driven car the engine is spinning at 8,400 RPMs all the time (or even most of the time). We're talking about basic seals here. The engine oil pan seal sees a lot more stress than does the DCT oil pan yet engine oil pan seals do not seem to be prone to leaks (or any other part of the engine, for that matter). If you can get the engine to seal properly under these conditions, explain why the there's a different story for the DCT? Do you think BMW was expecting to have to replace DCT seals within warranty on what seems to be a fairly frequent basis?

If you think it is acceptable for the DCT's seals to give out or for the bolts to work their way loose in the relatively short amount of time that they seem to, then that's your opinion and you can be happy every time you need them replaced. If you transmission is toast, you'll probably be even happier because after all, it's rated to 9,000 RPMs.

Do us all a favor, go buy another car from another manufacturer and take your negativity somewhere else.

As the head of a manufacturing firm I love customers like you---always bitching and moaning about something. Price too high, quality not good enough, it should do this, it should do that. You know who complains the hardest? The ones without engineering degrees, or manufacturing experience.

But you clearly have facts that the rest of us don't such as number of failures so you can then ascertain if the failures are abnormal or within typical norms of failure rates in the automotive manufacturing space. Spend $10 or 1mm, no amount of $$$ will eliminate all manufacturing defects and mistakes.

I didn't buy this car expecting it to be perfect, with now flaws or issues. Nor was I stupid enough to think it would cost as much as a series production car to maintain. It's capabilities are impressive and the number of issues I have had over 50k of street and track time? 1. This. This simple, stupid no hassle oil pan leak.

Yes, dealer called today, just the pan and the screws. No big deal.

So feel free to continue your negative posts and ridicule of BMW, I'm most of us just don't care.

Cheers,
e46e92

[MPowerZ32]

i have an engineering degree. And I'm upset that the DCT is leaking with just 20K miles on the clock. 9K rating, if it's even true, has nothing do with the engineering oversight on the material selection here. Leaking is occurring at both side pan and bottom pan, the former is apparently a huge job to replace, the latter not difficult to do. So if the side pan has to be serviced every 20K miles its unacceptable to me. If your engineering degree tells you to be happy that DCT is leaking I have nothing to tell you.

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Do us all a favor, go buy another car from another manufacturer and take your negativity somewhere else.

As the head of a manufacturing firm I love customers like you---always bitching and moaning about something. Price too high, quality not good enough, it should do this, it should do that. You know who complains the hardest? The ones without engineering degrees, or manufacturing experience.

But you clearly have facts that the rest of us don't such as number of failures so you can then ascertain if the failures are abnormal or within typical norms of failure rates in the automotive manufacturing space. Spend $10 or 1mm, no amount of $$$ will eliminate all manufacturing defects and mistakes.

I didn't buy this car expecting it to be perfect, with now flaws or issues. Nor was I stupid enough to think it would cost as much as a series production car to maintain. It's capabilities are impressive and the number of issues I have had over 50k of street and track time? 1. This. This simple, stupid no hassle oil pan leak.

Yes, dealer called today, just the pan and the screws. No big deal.

So feel free to continue your negative posts and ridicule of BMW, I'm most of us just don't care.

Cheers,
e46e92

Congratulations, you're the ultimate BMW fan-boy! It's interesting how you go from arguing that because the DCT is rated to 9,000 RPMs it's expected to have these issues, to impliedly agreeing that it is a manufacturing/design flaw. You're so blinded that you can't even understand that the whole point I've been making is that something as simple as a transmission seal should not be leaking in such a relatively short amount of time.

Good luck when your car is out of warranty and you have to pay over $1K every couple of years (or less) to get a stupid seal fixed. But hey, you have a manufacturing background and accept every flaw without question.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by MPowerZ32

i have an engineering degree. And I'm upset that the DCT is leaking with just 20K miles on the clock. 9K rating, if it's even true, has nothing do with the engineering oversight on the material selection here. Leaking is occurring at both side pan and bottom pan, the former is apparently a huge job to replace, the latter not difficult to do. So if the side pan has to be serviced every 20K miles its unacceptable to me. If your engineering degree tells you to be happy that DCT is leaking I have nothing to tell you.

Your school has failed you. Somewhere along the line you got confused and were told that manufactured goods have a zero % fail rate.

Still waiting for the stats on the number of failures worldwide versus number of units sold

You may not be happy.....but that doesn't make your expectations of zero failure rate reasonable.

20 members on a forum the majority of owners don't even know exist does not equal unreasonable failure rate.

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

Congratulations, you're the ultimate BMW fan-boy! It's interesting how you go from arguing that because the DCT is rated to 9,000 RPMs it's expected to have these issues, to impliedly agreeing that it is a manufacturing/design flaw. You're so blinded that you can't even understand that the whole point I've been making is that something as simple as a transmission seal should not be leaking in such a relatively short amount of time.

Good luck when your car is out of warranty and you have to pay over $1K every couple of years (or less) to get a stupid seal fixed. But hey, you have a manufacturing background and accept every flaw without question.

Still waiting for stats on number of failures versus number of units sold.

Your personal attacks and calling me a fan boy is a diversion from the facts. Facts you don't have and are replacing with your opinion.

I deal in facts. You are the missing the engineering fact that if 75,000 units were sold and there is 200 premature failures, that's an .002 failure rate. I am not a lead engineer in this industry so I have no idea what the typical failure rate for oil gaskets is.

Btw, I assume you make these points based on stats you have garnered from all the other performance / sports cars on the market?

If $1,000 every 50k miles or 2 years is out of your price range, you have no business owning this type of vehicle.

Cheers,
e46e92

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Still waiting for stats on number of failures versus number of units sold.

Your personal attacks and calling me a fan boy is a diversion from the facts. Facts you don't have and are replacing with your opinion.

I deal in facts. You are the missing the engineering fact that if 75,000 units were sold and there is 200 premature failures, that's an .002 failure rate. I am not a lead engineer in this industry so I have no idea what the typical failure rate for oil gaskets is.

Btw, I assume you make these points based on stats you have garnered from all the other performance / sports cars on the market?

If $1,000 every 50k miles or 2 years is out of your price range, you have no business owning this type of vehicle.

Cheers,
e46e92

You're waiting on numbers yet insinuate that the failure rate is really low by presenting some random and completely fictitious example. How do you explain that some members have had their cars fixed once already and are having the same issue reappear?

You keep missing the point on so many levels but so be it. If you're happy with your car and have no problem dealing with recurring and frequent DCT leaks, good for you - go out and buy many more BMW's. I'll go out on a limb and guess that you'll see your mechatronics gasket begin leaking before your lower pan leak reappear. And if your upper gasket leaks, have fun dropping the transmission to get that one replaced.

[bakaneul]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Still waiting for stats on number of failures versus number of units sold.

Your personal attacks and calling me a fan boy is a diversion from the facts. Facts you don't have and are replacing with your opinion.

I deal in facts.

Cheers,
e46e92

4 out of 5 DCT M3s I know in person, including mine, are having DCT leak. Not just from the oil pan, but from the side of the unit also.

Sounds pretty normal right?

[rantarM3]

Just posting an update. Got the car back yesterday and all seems to be good. BMW ended up replacing both the mechatronics gasket and the oil pan. I am glad BMW did the right thing and approved the repair, although it took a bit longer than I expected. Because the repair was under warranty the invoice did not show costs and totals, so I asked my SA. He looked in the system and informed me that the repair, were I to pay out of pocket, would have been around $2,000.

Here's what was replaced:
Gasket - 28-60-7-842-856
Countersunk Screws for Mechatronics Cover - 28-10-7-842-829
Oil Pan - 28-10-7-842-385
Countersunk Screws for Oil Pan - 28-10-7-842-386
DCT-1 Fluid - 83-22-0-440-214

The screws were replaced because they are TTY (one time use). Also, in case anyone is interested, the tech's notes reference SIB 28 01 14 (Oil Leakage Diagnosis). Per his notes, the tech first replaced the mechatronics gasket, tested the vehicle, and found the oil pan leaking. So that was then replaced.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Pricey...I had my pan gasket changed for a couple hundred bucks.
One leaking gasket and a battery (replaced under warranty) in 6 years ownership...I think I can live with that.

[BzsBimmer]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Pricey...I had my pan gasket changed for a couple hundred bucks.
One leaking gasket and a battery (replaced under warranty) in 6 years ownership...I think I can live with that.

Bottom gasket is a cinch. Side and top gaskets require the transmission to be dropped

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by ///Mint

4 out of 5 DCT M3s I know in person, including mine, are having DCT leak. Not just from the oil pan, but from the side of the unit also.

Sounds pretty normal right?

Oh, well 4/5 of the ones you know is definitely a good sample size. No need to get exact numbers or compare mileage fails or anything like that.

BMW should do a full recall based on your same size for sure.....

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

You're waiting on numbers yet insinuate that the failure rate is really low by presenting some random and completely fictitious example. How do you explain that some members have had their cars fixed once already and are having the same issue reappear?

You keep missing the point on so many levels but so be it. If you're happy with your car and have no problem dealing with recurring and frequent DCT leaks, good for you - go out and buy many more BMW's. I'll go out on a limb and guess that you'll see your mechatronics gasket begin leaking before your lower pan leak reappear. And if your upper gasket leaks, have fun dropping the transmission to get that one replaced.

You can assume what you want. I won't argue either way. I merely began this heated discussion based on YOUR assumption of a certain failure rate. I asked for numbers to validate that assumption.

You stated multiple times you expected more from BMW, inferring they screwed something up, so I have continued to request the numbers that bear out your assumption.

My issue is with the many people on these forums who make wild assumptions and statements without any true statistical analysis.

Cheers,
e46e92

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

You can assume what you want. I won't argue either way. I merely began this heated discussion based on YOUR assumption of a certain failure rate. I asked for numbers to validate that assumption.

You stated multiple times you expected more from BMW, inferring they screwed something up, so I have continued to request the numbers that bear out your assumption.

My issue is with the many people on these forums who make wild assumptions and statements without any true statistical analysis.

Cheers,
e46e92

Not even BMW has the numbers you are asking for. I would expect that on out of warranty cars, some owners take their cars to independent shops for repair and those repairs will not be logged with BMW. Also, if I had the numbers, I would not be making an assumption, right?

The issue is that you don't seem to understand or want to rely on any assumptions whatsoever. But you can make reasonable assumptions based on the information at hand. The information I've considered is: (1) DCT transmissions leak relatively soon, either based on mileage or age; (2) a number of members have posted that their DCT transmissions have leaked; (3) some members are facing their second DCT leak; and (4) if I recall correctly, with the exception of one member who also had the upper gasket leak, the forum-reported leaks occur from the same place (lower pan and mechatronics cover). Then consider: (1) we're talking about a seal here, nothing complicated; (2) members are not reporting common issues with engine seals; and (3) some professionals have posted their opinion that the plastic pan warps, that the bolts back out, and that they use stainless fasteners. If there were no issue with anything BMW designed on this transmission, why are the shops using stainless hardware, suggesting the use of loctite on the bolts, and no one has found that the seals themselves have degraded?

Also think about this. My car was repaired under warranty, so now I have a 2-year warranty on the work that was done. And if it leaks again within 2 years (which I suspect will be the case), BMW will have to fix it again, under warranty. I doubt BMW will be all too happy about having to fix these stupid leaks over and over. There's also a SIB on the DCT, which I've not had the opportunity to review but it relates to diagnosing oil leaks.

In my opinion it is reasonable to assume that leaks are a common issue with DCT transmissions, and that the leak is the result of the bolts working their way loose, probably from heating/cooling cycles. So yes, I think BMW messed up on this.

I'm sure you'll still want "hard numbers" and that even if forum sponsors such as SSP Performance commented on their experience on how frequently they see DCT leaks, you would somehow dismiss that information as well.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

Not even BMW has the numbers you are asking for. I would expect that on out of warranty cars, some owners take their cars to independent shops for repair and those repairs will not be logged with BMW. Also, if I had the numbers, I would not be making an assumption, right?

The issue is that you don't seem to understand or want to rely on any assumptions whatsoever. But you can make reasonable assumptions based on the information at hand. The information I've considered is: (1) DCT transmissions leak relatively soon, either based on mileage or age; (2) a number of members have posted that their DCT transmissions have leaked; (3) some members are facing their second DCT leak; and (4) if I recall correctly, with the exception of one member who also had the upper gasket leak, the forum-reported leaks occur from the same place (lower pan and mechatronics cover). Then consider: (1) we're talking about a seal here, nothing complicated; (2) members are not reporting common issues with engine seals; and (3) some professionals have posted their opinion that the plastic pan warps, that the bolts back out, and that they use stainless fasteners. If there were no issue with anything BMW designed on this transmission, why are the shops using stainless hardware, suggesting the use of loctite on the bolts, and no one has found that the seals themselves have degraded?

Also think about this. My car was repaired under warranty, so now I have a 2-year warranty on the work that was done. And if it leaks again within 2 years (which I suspect will be the case), BMW will have to fix it again, under warranty. I doubt BMW will be all too happy about having to fix these stupid leaks over and over. There's also a SIB on the DCT, which I've not had the opportunity to review but it relates to diagnosing oil leaks.

In my opinion it is reasonable to assume that leaks are a common issue with DCT transmissions, and that the leak is the result of the bolts working their way loose, probably from heating/cooling cycles. So yes, I think BMW messed up on this.

I'm sure you'll still want "hard numbers" and that even if forum sponsors such as SSP Performance commented on their experience on how frequently they see DCT leaks, you would somehow dismiss that information as well.

I would like to address one part of your reply: if you believe the sponsors on here, you don't have much experience here.

We have soooooo many examples over the existence of these forums where there is the truth, and then $$$ motivated "truth". The owners of this site are here to make $$$, and the sponsors are here to do the same. Don't for a second get this place twisted with a true "free" forum concerned only with the truth. To do that would be very naive....

Finally, while the numbers that BMW absolutely has (disregarding repairs out of warranty which we could argue are pointless as if you think these cars are capable of going 100k without major investment you bought the wrong car and should never buy a P-car, ///M or RS car if that is what you are expecting) are I'm sure not 100% accurate, if they were only 90% accurate, that's still 90% more accurate than anything I have seen on here because 90% is better than no numbers at all.

Cheers,
e46e92

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I would like to address one part of your reply: if you believe the sponsors on here, you don't have much experience here.

We have soooooo many examples over the existence of these forums where there is the truth, and then $$$ motivated "truth". The owners of this site are here to make $$$, and the sponsors are here to do the same. Don't for a second get this place twisted with a true "free" forum concerned only with the truth. To do that would be very naive....

Finally, while the numbers that BMW absolutely has (disregarding repairs out of warranty which we could argue are pointless as if you think these cars are capable of going 100k without major investment you bought the wrong car and should never buy a P-car, ///M or RS car if that is what you are expecting) are I'm sure not 100% accurate, if they were only 90% accurate, that's still 90% more accurate than anything I have seen on here because 90% is better than no numbers at all.

Cheers,
e46e92

It's understood that certain things sponsors state should be taken with a grain of salt. But not one of them sell a stainless fastener kit for the DCT, and the one that has chimed in is nowhere near me so they can't be expecting me to bring my car in for service.

As for BMW numbers, they won't account for all the cars on the road that are seeping or leaking, but the owners of which are completely unaware. This is probably the majority of M3 owners. We're also not talking about going 100k miles and the costs associated with keeping one of these cars for so long. This thread is about how frequently the DCT transmission leaks after being repaired. If you think it is normal and accptable for it to leak in a couple or three years and in 30,000 miles or less, then I don't know what to say. Maybe you're too forgiving of BMW. To me it does not make any sense to keep sinking money into a depreciating asset in order to fix things that really should not be failing so early or frequently. And even thought the car depreciates, the cost of repairs stays fixed, which means that you'll be spending a higher percentage of the value of the car on repairs each year. It's an M3, not a collectors car.

By the way, have you seen numbers on E46 subframe failures, VANOS tab breaks, rod bearing problems, and F8x CCB issues? Do you believe those are made up?

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

It's understood that certain things sponsors state should be taken with a grain of salt. But not one of them sell a stainless fastener kit for the DCT, and the one that has chimed in is nowhere near me so they can't be expecting me to bring my car in for service.

As for BMW numbers, they won't account for all the cars on the road that are seeping or leaking, but the owners of which are completely unaware. This is probably the majority of M3 owners. We're also not talking about going 100k miles and the costs associated with keeping one of these cars for so long. This thread is about how frequently the DCT transmission leaks after being repaired. If you think it is normal and accptable for it to leak in a couple or three years and in 30,000 miles or less, then I don't know what to say. Maybe you're too forgiving of BMW. To me it does not make any sense to keep sinking money into a depreciating asset in order to fix things that really should not be failing so early or frequently. And even thought the car depreciates, the cost of repairs stays fixed, which means that you'll be spending a higher percentage of the value of the car on repairs each year. It's an M3, not a collectors car.

By the way, have you seen numbers on E46 subframe failures, VANOS tab breaks, rod bearing problems, and F8x CCB issues? Do you believe those are made up?

Please point to cars that rev beyond 8k and make power at those points that were reliable outside the 4-banger s2000.

Shit breaks on these cars----if you are looking for reliability of a regular series production car with the performance and every day usability the ///M cars have brought, it's note going to happen.

The problem here is expectations. Finally, if you are so versed on the short comings of the e46 and thought it was a failure on BMWs part I'm not sure why you went out and bought an e92.

These cars are high maintenance, have a lot of personality and are more susceptible to failure from anything but perfect care. That is the reality of it.

Let's just agree to disagree cause I'm 100% sure no one here cares about what either of us thinks.

Cheers,
e46e92

[MPowerZ32]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Let's just agree to disagree cause I'm 100% sure no one here cares about what either of us thinks.

I mostly just don't care about what you are saying...

[yodlegern]

Has anyone had this covered under BMW certified pre-owned warranty?

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by MPowerZ32

I mostly just don't care about what you are saying...

See rantar and me disagree, but we have done so respectfully. That is the point of disagreement, you can disagree without being disrespectful.

If you feel being directly disrespectful to a member of these forums who you disagree with sets a positive tone for the forums, I think you will find that few agree with you, least of all the moderators.

Cheers,
e46e92

[MPowerZ32]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

See rantar and me disagree, but we have done so respectfully. That is the point of disagreement, you can disagree without being disrespectful.

If you feel being directly disrespectful to a member of these forums who you disagree with sets a positive tone for the forums, I think you will find that few agree with you, least of all the moderators.

Cheers,
e46e92

I feel I'm wasting time here. But many people in this thread already replied to you numerous times reasoning with you why it's not acceptable for something as simple as DCT seals to fail repeatedly. You are making a lot of assumptions that my comment is disrespectful. My comments simply means I lost interest in your comments when they are just arguing the semantics without any real substance. The facts don't lie. Members are experiencing failures of the seals. If you believe it's acceptable that's your opinion you are entitled to it. I'm also entitled to my opinion that your comments have run their course and are no longer worth my interest. That's it. No more no less.