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11-13-2019, 07:49 PM | #1277 |
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11-14-2019, 11:39 AM | #1278 | |
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Yes, every engine platform will have an example of a spun bearing here or there. Usually, the cause is a result of something the owner did, not the underlying design of the bearing. It would be great if you could share the Porsche and GTR bearing issues so that we can compare them to what we are seeing with the S65. Cheers,
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11-14-2019, 06:15 PM | #1279 |
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2013 E92
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11-14-2019, 06:57 PM | #1280 | |
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11-14-2019, 07:03 PM | #1281 | |
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1. I was hoping for a better answer, such as "there has been no wear noted in replacement rod bearings" (the way it should be). But we have no such luck, do we? 2. I assume the pro's have determined there is no link between replacing rod bearings and failed main bearing? No cause effect there?
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11-14-2019, 08:37 PM | #1283 |
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11-15-2019, 06:28 AM | #1284 |
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When the bypass valve is open, the stress is no different than another accessory like an alternator. But when making boost, there is more stress. How much boost and how often is the motor in boost are the questions. Definitely much more stress at full boost - the blower is probably dragging on the crank harder than all other accessories put together. And apparently this motor does not have a particularly sturdy front main bearing. The front takes the most load.
Still, I would supercharge my 100k mile motor. |
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11-15-2019, 10:45 AM | #1285 | |
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I realize that a single data point does not prove anything, but it is nice to see any bearing from an S65 with 50,000KM on it that shows a proper wear pattern. The first photo is from the post linked above. Perfect "wear" pattern on the BE shell. The second photo are my factory bearings with 30,000KM. Oil changed 6 times by dealer in 27,000KM (7 years) by previous owner... My factory bearings are one of the cleaner examples that I have seen come out of an S65. That said, they still show signs of unacceptable babbitt wear. Here is hoping that some more people pull their BE, ACL, VAC bearings with reasonable mileage on them to give us some more data points. Cheers,
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11-15-2019, 03:53 PM | #1286 |
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Great post and explanation. Thanks guys. I love this car and the V8 engine's sweet response especially around 4k very much (as much as my Turbo's Mezger engine), does seem like I have little choice but to replace bearings.
The next question is whether BE is the "best", and what other notable alternatives. I am searching through all the threads on this forum but any input is very welcome. From this thread, seems like BE bearings and ARP bolts are the favorite, or at least the most popular? https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1504908 Other choices: 1. WPC Treated ECS bearings: https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3...ne/Mechanical/ 2. VAC, performance coated with Extra Clearance: https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac...ly-p2932.aspx/ 3. ACL, on Amazon and so inexpensive (??) it almost makes me worried . Thread: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1490200&page=5 Are these all US made? Also seems WPC treatment is not necessary?
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11-18-2019, 01:42 PM | #1287 |
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And to the most over-hyped least understood "problem" that ever existed. So nice to see how many people throw their money away on this considering less than 1% failure globally. I doubt you would change your eating habits if you had less than 1% chance of catching a disease but hey, why not join in on the stupidity. Add this to the DME hype on post 996 911's and I could open my own shop replacing parts.
And keep in mind, when you replace the rod bearings the tolerances are exactly the same so while you may have changed the material it's the tolerance that causes the failure.
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11-18-2019, 02:46 PM | #1288 | |
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Using tentative language here because the hard data isn't in yet. That'd require OE-level bench testing and/or a LOT of real-world miles (60k-100k+ times many engines), followed by tear-downs and a lot of measurements. That's orders of magnitude more work and resources than even the impressive amount that BE has put in, so don't hold your breath for anyone to step up. We'll have to wait for info to trickle in from the field, which will probably take years. Since you asked about notable alternatives: I personally went with updated OE bearings and OE bolts. I wouldn't argue that that's necessarily the best option; I just always default to OE unless I have hard data to suggest that aftermarket is meaningfully better. That said, there's no shortage of engines that have run a fair number of miles on any of the bearing options you listed, and the theory behind extra clearance and/or performance coatings/treatments from reputable manufacturers is pretty hard to argue with. There have been extremely few tear-downs so far to validate any of them, but there have been few-to-no obvious rod bearing failures, either. So at least in the short term, if not longer, you'd probably be fine with whatever your own reasoning points you to. Last edited by IamFODI; 11-18-2019 at 02:52 PM.. |
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11-18-2019, 07:11 PM | #1289 | |
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As for the tolerances, you are right the internal engine components will be the same. But the most popular rod bearings are ones with extra clearance, which addresses the tolerance issue. |
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11-19-2019, 04:32 AM | #1290 | |
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BE is a design company with outsourced production (Clevite), focusing on a few different products hence small volumes in comparison which assumingly impact part pricing. BE also add resource/investment on measuring and organize shells withing different thicknesses (binning), which then are matched in pair to achieve the same "total" bearing thickness. This is an elegant solution, which they may have more reason to do as their quoted bearing thickness variance is some 50% greater than for instance ACL’s. Last edited by Helmsman; 11-19-2019 at 04:37 AM.. |
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11-19-2019, 10:24 AM | #1291 | |
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Could you clarify the bold part above? Are you saying BE has *worse* variance than ACL? Is "greater variance" bad? Sorry if this is such a basic question.
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11-19-2019, 10:30 AM | #1292 |
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59,000 miles rod bearing replacement with ACL.
View post on imgur.com ACL Bearings View post on imgur.com Old bearings.. still looks ok. View post on imgur.com
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11-19-2019, 10:46 AM | #1293 | |
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Imagin you want a total thickness of 4mm both shells put together, some are perfect 2mm so two makes 4mm, some are 1.9 others 2.1, matched still gives 4. Makes sense? |
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11-19-2019, 07:03 PM | #1294 |
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Got it thanks. Very interesting.
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11-19-2019, 08:01 PM | #1295 |
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For giggles, while we're on this topic:
I threw this together using the numbers BE has published on measured rod bearing-to-journal clearances when installed. Everything's in mm. I thought it might be interesting to look at clearance tolerances for several bearings side-by-side -- not just in terms of absolute numbers, but also as percentages of the nominal clearance. Not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this, if any... but man, do the original 088/089 bearings look like crap here! |
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11-19-2019, 11:17 PM | #1296 | |
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11-19-2019, 11:23 PM | #1297 | |
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Bert has the measurements and variance of every single BE Shell ever sold. But that's not what appears in the table. The data in the table for BE is taken from the first few sets that arrived. However, as I just pointed out above, since every BE Bearing shell is measured and the sets are hand-matched, the variance of the shells a customer receives is effectively zero. Bert also has the manufacturer data and theoretical variance for all of those manufacturers -- maybe except one. The problem, if any, is whether or not the manufacturers ship product outside of their stated variance. I know from Bert's experience, the answer is yes. Bert has to throw away a few shells from every batch that fall outside of the stated specs. The point is: Bert throws them away! Other manufacturers who don't measure like BE does would ship the product without knowing. If there's any interest, I'll get Bert to share the theoretical variance data. |
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11-20-2019, 01:56 AM | #1298 |
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I was just going to change my beloved M3's rod bearings then leave the thread, but find myself sucked into this discussion more and more.
Thanks guys for the interesting posts.
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