help identifying new rod bolts

[TX]

Following up to my question in the first post, I ordered a backup set of bolts from a 3rd vendor to add more samples to the mix. They arrived this evening.
Like Blindside, they are different all the way down to the packaging.
The BE stamped bolts are a 11mm socket. The -31 stamped bolts are a 3/8" socket. This has me even more confused with deans comment above about the socket on the BE stamped bolts being a 3/8". I am 100% sure he is correct so I don't know what to think.
Since we are assuming the metallurgy is the same for both bolts and the extended threads are not a concern on the -31 bolts, the only difference I can visually see, beside the different head physical size, is the taper under the head of the bolt. Are the rod caps cut in such a way to allow for the longer taper or will the taper be an issue in the cap causing the head of the bolt to not seat fully?

Anyway on to the pictures! BE's proper shipment arrived this evening...(one bolt comparison also)

[m235boy]

Both BE and VAC sites show photos of their ARP bolts, they both are stamped ARP2000 -18

So now what are these -31 bolts and seeing how both photos of VAC and BE look the same (ARP 2000 -18) what is the torque to be applied on these bolts

According to http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/index..../S85_Rod_Bolts

The torque for the different bolts are:

45 ft-lbs (VAC).
50 ft-lbs (BE-ARP).



This is the image from BE website:

[frankc]

Another data point for these ARP 2000 rod bolts. I received these along with the BE bearings I purchased. Anyone else seen the "-28" stamping?

[Green-Eggs]

I spoke to BE about this and there isn't any good news. We (Auto Talent) haven't shipped any BE bolts to M-Power since October 2019.

These clearly are not BE Bolts and we don't know where they come from or what the specs are. What concerns BE the most, is they are being marketed as BE-ARP bolts, when they are not a BE product.

The bolts shown later in this thread are definitely BE-ARP bolts. Those are the bolts you should get when you order BE bolts since the start of 2020.

This issue came first to BE's attention when M-Power was selling the "BE-ARP" bolts less than BE's MAP pricing which was the first hint. The second hint was a customer who called and was told M-Power was out of stock and was expecting 40-sets of bolts in the next few days. A few days later, the customer received bolts that did not have the "BE" stamped on the head, was not in the foam tray and did not have BE instructions -- thus confirming they are not selling authentic BE-ARP bolts.

As an unfortunate result of this, BE had to terminate their relationship with M-Power.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

I spoke to BE about this and there isn't any good news. We (Auto Talent) haven't shipped any BE bolts to M-Power since October 2019.

These clearly are not BE Bolts and we don't know where they come from or what the specs are. What concerns BE the most, is they are being marketed as BE-ARP bolts, when they are not a BE product.

The bolts shown later in this thread are definitely BE-ARP bolts. Those are the bolts you should get when you order BE bolts since the start of 2020.

This issue came first to BE's attention when M-Power was selling the "BE-ARP" bolts less than BE's MAP pricing which was the first hint. The second hint was a customer who called and was told M-Power was out of stock and was expecting 40-sets of bolts in the next few days. A few days later, the customer received bolts that did not have the "BE" stamped on the head, was not in the foam tray and did not have BE instructions -- thus confirming they are not selling authentic BE-ARP bolts.

As an unfortunate result of this, BE had to terminate their relationship with M-Power.

Thanks for chiming in. Very displeased with the rod bolt service/shipping experience with M power. I'm just glad I was able to get the BE spec from turner on short notice last week since my car was scheduled for the RB service this week.

Will be attempting to return these on Monday.

[redline9001]

So all new BE bolts are stamped with BE what are the old bolts stamped with that might still be circulating?

Cause looking at this thread a whole bunch of people are getting ripped off ....

[frankc]

Originally Posted by redline9001

So all new BE bolts are stamped with BE what are the old bolts stamped with that might still be circulating?

I'd be curious to know this as well. There is a 2/20 stamped on my BE bearings, which I assume is a date code? If so, may it be possible that the "-28" stamped bolts I received were from the "pre-BE" stampings? If not, then I'll be placing an order for BE bolts very soon..

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by frankc

I'd be curious to know this as well. There is a 2/20 stamped on my BE bearings, which I assume is a date code? If so, may it be possible that the "-28" stamped bolts I received were from the "pre-BE" stampings? If not, then I'll be placing an order for BE bolts very soon..

The BE bolts that I ordered from ecstuning 1/10/2020. Bolts came in the BE box with label, instructions and foam inserts. Bolts list ARP 2000 with -28.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by frankc

Another data point for these ARP 2000 rod bolts. I received these along with the BE bearings I purchased. Anyone else seen the "-28" stamping?

That’s what I bought early January from ECS which were marketed as BE bolts, they came with foam inserts and BE instructions.

[frankc]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

The BE bolts that I ordered from ecstuning 1/10/2020. Bolts came in the BE box with label, instructions and foam inserts. Bolts list ARP 2000 with -28.

Thank you! This at least gives me some level of confidence that I can use the bolts I have. I'm curious to hear from others regarding what was stamped on the heads of the bolts they received as part of their bearings + bolts kit.

[TX]

There has been some very good information supplied here. I appreciate all that have contributed.

- "-28" Official BE-ARP Bolts sold/still in circulation which are missing "BE" stamp (confirmed?) Prior to 2020.

"-31" stamped unknown origin bolts . Non-Official BE-ARP Bolts sold by M-power as "BE-ARP" missing "BE" stamp and packaging.

- All current January+ "BE-ARP" shipped bolts should have proper packaging and documents along with "BE" stamp on bolt head.

Current "BE" bolts are 11m head.

I am sorry for stirring up such a mess over bolts, but I wanted to know what I had in hand, and it appears others are in the same boat.

I will be contacting M-Power to return these bolts. Thank you AutoTalent for confirming.

[buldogge]

Well...If you look at the -28 bolts, in relation to the pic of the -31 and BE bolts you can see that the -28 and -31 are most likely the same bolt with different production runs.

Auto Talent just stated that those -28 are the bolts BE was selling before 2020...the changes that everyone is worried about were only just implemented...Do you thing your old "BE" bolts are suddenly an issue?

Everyone is also ignoring the fact that these are all the same ARP (the actual manufacturer) 2000 material spec.

If the longer full OD area under the shoulder wasn't a problem before, then it isn't problem now...If the longer threaded section wasn't then it isn't.

Sounds to me like someone figured out what the original application was, and has exploited that. Granted, it is then shady to continue to advertise as "BE" "spec".

My 2c

-Mark in St. Louis

[buldogge]

Hey...Before someone with the -31 bolts sends them back, can you take a thread pitch gauge and check the threads? They look the same...but...it would be nice to confirm.

What is the thread size on S65 rod bolts?

-Mark

[buldogge]

So I see that the ARP 625 sets are labeled M9, with a 45mm UHL.

The ARP 2000 BMW M52/S50/S52 are M9 with a 44mm UHL.

-Mark

[frankc]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

The bolts shown later in this thread are definitely BE-ARP bolts. Those are the bolts you should get when you order BE bolts since the start of 2020.

Green-Eggs/AT,
Just to confirm, when you say "bolts shown later in this thread", are you referring to both the "BE" and "-28" stamped bolts, or only the "BE" bolts?

[frankc]

Originally Posted by buldogge

Hey...Before someone with the -31 bolts sends them back, can you take a thread pitch gauge and check the threads? They look the same...but...it would be nice to confirm.

What is the thread size on S65 rod bolts?

-Mark

I don't have -31 bolts, but here are some measurements of the -28 bolts I have:

Diameter: 9mm (M9)
12pt Socket size: 3/8"
Total length (under head): 44.5mm
Head to taper length: 6.5mm
Thread length: 18mm
Thread pitch: 1.0mm

[pbonsalb]

Any of these bolts will work fine.

[buldogge]

Agreed.

Anyone got a M52/S52 rod bolt laying around...Sounds (looks) like those readily available bolts would be just fine, as well.

-Mark

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Any of these bolts will work fine.

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Any of these bolts will work fine.

This. As long as it is torqued to spec at the right tightness it should be fine.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by buldogge

So I see that the ARP 625 sets are labelled M9, with a 45mm UHL.

The ARP 2000 BMW M52/S50/S52 are M9 with a 44mm UHL.

-Mark

You said - Auto Talent just stated that those -28 are the bolts BE was selling before 2020 - where do you see that?
Looks to me like he was referring to the 'BE' stamped bolts, as he said bolts from the 'start of 2020'.
Although Bubbles seems to have confirmed '-28' bolts were the old style BE bolts.

************************************************** ********************

Regarding thread length, seeing as the total bolt length is the same, that won't hurt.
As for the taper position (shoulder length), how do they compare to the OEM bolts?
If the shoulder doesn't poke out beyond the big end cap then it won't be a problem (doesn't seem like it would, but I can't find any pics of a rod bolt by the side, or in a con rod cap for the S65).


I don't suppose anyone's tried to contact ARP to see what the numbers relate to? [update] I've just emailed them, fingers crossed!
The 2019 ARP catalogue could be useful, p31.
44.5mm UHL = 1.75"
Well that's odd, their are no 3/8 headed rod bolts listed with a 1.75" UHL, so a dead end there.
7/16 (11mm) could be the 200-6228, but without knowing the grip length (shoulder) and thread length we can't tell.

Can some people measure the grip and thread length of the 'BE' and '-31' bolts?
Looking at frankc's measurements for the '-28' bolt, grip length 6.5 mm (0.256"), thread length 18mm (0.709"). Yea, doesn't match anything in their 'general replacement rod bolts', oh well.

Anyone got the grip length and thread length for the ARP 625 bolts for the S65?

Frankc
Who did you buy the '-28' bolts from?

[JDiaz]

ARP only sells one type of bolt directly to the public. That is the 625 bolt. They DO NOT SELL the ARP2000 bolt directly to the public. Some vendors, such as BE and M Power have some exclusive contracts with them to make an ARP2000 bolt for the S65/S85 engine. So you can’t call APR asking them for an ARP2000 bolt for our engine. They will tell you that they don't sell it.

That being said, the ARP2000 bolt that BE and M Power have been selling was designed by copying the spec from the ARP 625 bolt made for this car. It would be more accurate to say, ARP2000 (625 Spec) than the common lingo.

I’ve purchased ARP2000’s from both BE and M Power. Once from ECS and twice from M Power. I didn’t know about M Power at the time of my first purchase. I installed one set in my car and one for my brother’s car. Side by Side, the bolt from ECS and M Power were the exact same thing! Nothing different. Height, threads. Everything. When I asked Abdul at M Power if the bolt he was selling was BE spec, he said, NO. I was extremely confused when I did a side by side comparison so I called him back to inquire about the difference. He said he doesn't advertise them as BE spec because that is unethical but they are pretty much the “exact” same thing.

Fast forward to this summer, I purchased another set of bolts and mixed shells for my E60 M5 from M Power (because they sell them for the best price on the market). It seems like the picture of the BE bolt that was shared in this thread is different than the one BE has been selling in the past. I’m a hundred percent sure about this. The bolts in the past never had a “BE” stamp on it.

The numbers that come after the “-” are batch numbers. The -29 or -31 is the batch number that APR stamps upon manufacturing the bolt.

Nonetheless, we are all in agreement that the “best” bolt for our engines is the ARP2000 bolt. Buying it from M Power or anywhere else, its the same damn bolt. Lol. Let’s not further complicate this issue as we have done with oil types and bearing clearances. It's really straightforward!

[Assimilator1]

Good to know, thanks

What caused the confusion is that BE now have a slightly different design bolt (the 'BE' stamped ones), and thus some doubt over the ARP 2000 bolts sold by M power (and others I'm sure).
So it would seem there is no difference between the old 'BE' bolt and current and past M power bolts, but there are some minor differences between the current BE bolt and M power et al bolts, but nothing to worry about.
And as you've seen, their are photos showing this.

I don't suppose you have a side by side photo of an old BE sourced ARP2000 bolt and an M power ARP2000 (625 size spec) bolt?