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      03-12-2017, 07:26 PM   #1
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E85 flex fuel kit from Gintani

Lately there's been a few threads about E85. Saw this on Instagram the other day, thought some people here might be interested.
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"Shipping out this E85 package to our customer out in Tennessee today. Advanced Fuel Dynamics Proflex Commander + custom E85 tune. Contact us today to order yours!" - Gintani
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      03-12-2017, 08:25 PM   #2
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Looks good. Unfortunately no E85 near me.
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      03-13-2017, 12:51 AM   #3
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Good to see Gintani supporting the Advanced fuel dynamics kit! I installed mine and so far so good. I won't be tuning for it due to lack of e85 nearby, but still great results...
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      03-13-2017, 10:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by europower View Post
Good to see Gintani supporting the Advanced fuel dynamics kit! I installed mine and so far so good. I won't be tuning for it due to lack of e85 nearby, but still great results...
just out of curiosity, if you don't have e85 what was the purpose of buying the kit?
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      03-13-2017, 11:32 AM   #5
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Have to jump on this . Not my daily only my weekend car. I had a 599whp e85 mr2 turbo before my m3 .
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      03-14-2017, 12:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrón View Post
just out of curiosity, if you don't have e85 what was the purpose of buying the kit?
Exactly. Even then I don't see an advantage unless running a high-boost or raised compression ratio engine as a more available alternative to race gas.
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      03-15-2017, 01:18 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrón View Post
just out of curiosity, if you don't have e85 what was the purpose of buying the kit?
I dont have E85 close to my house. Its about 35 miles away. If I had E85 close to my house I would tune the ECU for it and run E85 full time. Since that is not an option I bought a 55 gallon barrel and I can run whatever concentration I want thanks to this product.

With the VF650, on E61 with no tuning claims are 50WHP, that is phenomenal! For the cost of the product. Along with the HP gain, our cars suffer greatly from the heat soak, E85 should help with that as well and keep the timing for longer...
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      03-15-2017, 10:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by europower View Post
I dont have E85 close to my house. Its about 35 miles away. If I had E85 close to my house I would tune the ECU for it and run E85 full time. Since that is not an option I bought a 55 gallon barrel and I can run whatever concentration I want thanks to this product.

With the VF650, on E61 with no tuning claims are 50WHP, that is phenomenal! For the cost of the product. Along with the HP gain, our cars suffer greatly from the heat soak, E85 should help with that as well and keep the timing for longer...
ok, so you are going to utilize it with E. those gains are really nice.
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      03-15-2017, 10:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by europower View Post
I dont have E85 close to my house. Its about 35 miles away. If I had E85 close to my house I would tune the ECU for it and run E85 full time. Since that is not an option I bought a 55 gallon barrel and I can run whatever concentration I want thanks to this product.

With the VF650, on E61 with no tuning claims are 50WHP, that is phenomenal! For the cost of the product. Along with the HP gain, our cars suffer greatly from the heat soak, E85 should help with that as well and keep the timing for longer...
Impossible. Your VF tune has max timing targets of X. You will not make more power then when you achieve your max timing target with the same amount of boost. The ONLY way to increase power, raise boost (smaller pulley), ensure you are reaching max timing target. Now, E85 does have a cooling effect and higher net octane, that helps in achieving maximum timing target but that isn't to say you can't achieve that on 93 with adequate intercoolering (and not a blisteringly hot day out), run race gas mix, or meth.

Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying. You also run the risk of reaching max duty cycle with your VF injectors on this system with full E85 or a high E85 mix. When that happens at high rpm, your AFR WILL go high and engine go BOOM.
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      03-15-2017, 12:33 PM   #10
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I think the gains people are getting with just an E85 mix show that the car is not hitting the pump gas timing target much of the time. So while under ideal conditions -- like cold weather on 93 pump -- there may not be much difference, under hotter conditions there probably is. So it may be that much of the time the E85 mix is improving power noticeably.

The benefits with forced induction are magnified since FI tends to result in more detonation that the E85 will suppress.

And as you noted, spraying 1/3 more fuel into the chamber will have a cooling effect much like water injection (BMW uses water injection on the F80M3 CSL) that adds power.

I agree that the 50 rwhp claim for a VF650 should be viewed with skepticism. Maybe if the VF650 is not making full power due to detonation or heat. But if the VF650 is on 93 pump in cold weather, I would expect much smaller gains though still some gain.

Hopefully we will get some independent dyno testing soon.
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      03-15-2017, 12:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post

I agree that the 50 rwhp claim for a VF650 should be viewed with skepticism. Maybe if the VF650 is not making full power due to detonation or heat. But if the VF650 is on 93 pump in cold weather, I would expect much smaller gains though still some gain.

Hopefully we will get some independent dyno testing soon.
great post.
i think you hit the nail on the head. the target timing isn't hit unless conditions are perfect (like a negative or zero DA). in my situation, my car doesn't run well unless the outside tempetures are below 70 and my AIT are below 77-78. my car runs awesome but I 'feel' a huge difference when ait are below 77. doesn't happen too often and I believe the e85 tunes will help close the gap.

edited: adding ice to my tank helps with the AIT but it's a difficult process and changes back to normal in less than ten minutes.
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      03-15-2017, 02:07 PM   #12
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You also need to take into account that E85 is oxygenated. Just adding it, with no other tuning changes (assuming same AFR), yields ~5% increase in power.

Statements about pump gas under negative DA and 70* are kind of silly. One of the benefits of E85 is the cooling properties of the ethanol... you get consistent power across a large range of temperatures.

"Sorry i lost that race. It was 71*... lets run again when it cools down a bit..." LMAO
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      03-15-2017, 03:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWTT335i View Post
You also need to take into account that E85 is oxygenated. Just adding it, with no other tuning changes (assuming same AFR), yields ~5% increase in power.

Statements about pump gas under negative DA and 70* are kind of silly. One of the benefits of E85 is the cooling properties of the ethanol... you get consistent power across a large range of temperatures.

"Sorry i lost that race. It was 71*... lets run again when it cools down a bit..." LMAO
yea, it's silly to discuss heat soak and timing targets. especially when e85 helps those problems.
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      03-15-2017, 03:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWTT335i View Post

Statements about pump gas under negative DA and 70* are kind of silly. One of the benefits of E85 is the cooling properties of the ethanol... you get consistent power across a large range of temperatures.

"Sorry i lost that race. It was 71*... lets run again when it cools down a bit..." LMAO
But totally true. Hot weather is tough on pump gas forced induction. E85 definitely helps, as does water/meth injection.
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      03-15-2017, 10:20 PM   #15
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As much as I hate being a "beta" tester I bought the product. To me, in my specific situation with E85 not as readily available, this just makes sense. I have spent more money before on a lot less of a potential HP gain.

That said, I was planning on upgrading the fuel pump, do logs- dyno testing.

That will have to be postponed due to differential issues that I ran into... Lets just say if you experience wheel hop, upgrade those bushings!!!
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      03-15-2017, 10:32 PM   #16
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Exactly, due to E85 being oxygenated fuel, the benefits of higher power production are due to more than just hitting factory or higher timing targets. There is more effective oxygen in the cylinders thus if the fuel system is capable of delivering more fuel it will, which will increase power.

I've data-logged with E85 blend and while timing is similar to using 100 octane race gas, more power is produced due to more fuel being injected into the ports (the ECU itself calculates torque based on all ambient parameters and fuel quality). To get the full benefits of running full E85 while keeping things safe, you will need larger injectors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AWTT335i View Post
You also need to take into account that E85 is oxygenated. Just adding it, with no other tuning changes (assuming same AFR), yields ~5% increase in power.

Statements about pump gas under negative DA and 70* are kind of silly. One of the benefits of E85 is the cooling properties of the ethanol... you get consistent power across a large range of temperatures.

"Sorry i lost that race. It was 71*... lets run again when it cools down a bit..." LMAO
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      03-16-2017, 07:31 AM   #17
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[QUOTE=FogCityM3;21423356]There is more effective oxygen in the cylinders thus if the fuel system is capable of delivering more fuel it will, which will increase power.
QUOTE]

Err...could you state that a little differently? If in a FI engine the flue system is close to ,if not, maxed out, how can it deliver more fuel? Larger injectors are limited to the max capabilities of the fuel pumps themselves and rails.
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      03-16-2017, 08:16 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Exactly, due to E85 being oxygenated fuel, the benefits of higher power production are due to more than just hitting factory or higher timing targets. There is more effective oxygen in the cylinders thus if the fuel system is capable of delivering more fuel it will, which will increase power.

I've data-logged with E85 blend and while timing is similar to using 100 octane race gas, more power is produced due to more fuel being injected into the ports (the ECU itself calculates torque based on all ambient parameters and fuel quality). To get the full benefits of running full E85 while keeping things safe, you will need larger injectors.
The oxygenated argument is ridiculous. Most pump gas is oxygenated with the additive methyl tert-butyl ether. Some are dillusional but power comes down to hitting timing, E85 can help achieve this, however, good pump gas can also achieve timing targets. Now if you retune and change your timing tables, you could extract more of what E85 can allow due to it's higher octane and cooling effects
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      03-16-2017, 08:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8k4 View Post
The oxygenated argument is ridiculous. Most pump gas is oxygenated with the additive methyl tert-butyl ether. Some are dillusional but power comes down to hitting timing, E85 can help achieve this, however, good pump gas can also achieve timing targets. Now if you retune and change your timing tables, you could extract more of what E85 can allow due to it's higher octane and cooling effects
How often are you finding good pump gas? Do you test it when you get it? Is it consistent? Would you bet your motor on it?

Pushing the envelop on a FI stock motor on shit gas is a recipe for disaster.
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      03-16-2017, 09:07 AM   #20
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Quote:
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How often are you finding good pump gas? Do you test it when you get it? Is it consistent? Would you bet your motor on it?

Pushing the envelop on a FI stock motor on shit gas is a recipe for disaster.
Most of the time. 91/93 octane from name brand stations/dealers is fine. No one "tests" their gas. Most everyone drives on pump gas.
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      03-16-2017, 10:00 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8k4 View Post
The oxygenated argument is ridiculous. Most pump gas is oxygenated with the additive methyl tert-butyl ether. Some are dillusional but power comes down to hitting timing, E85 can help achieve this, however, good pump gas can also achieve timing targets. Now if you retune and change your timing tables, you could extract more of what E85 can allow due to it's higher octane and cooling effects
How often are you finding good pump gas? Do you test it when you get it? Is it consistent? Would you bet your motor on it?

Pushing the envelop on a FI stock motor on shit gas is a recipe for disaster.
You need to test at pump with e85 tester , I used to test it myself on my old e85 turbo car. To be safe .i had a tune for e85 only , I did not use flex fuel sensor on my old setup . I also had John reed tune my haltech .
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      03-16-2017, 11:49 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8k4 View Post
The oxygenated argument is ridiculous. Most pump gas is oxygenated with the additive methyl tert-butyl ether. Some are dillusional but power comes down to hitting timing, E85 can help achieve this, however, good pump gas can also achieve timing targets. Now if you retune and change your timing tables, you could extract more of what E85 can allow due to it's higher octane and cooling effects
MTBE is illegal now. Ethanol is the most common additive. It does oxygenate the fuel and can add a little power due to a better burn from the additional oxygen. Not sure it is 5%, however, at least not without tuning.
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