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      11-04-2010, 09:27 AM   #23
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http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ght=rpi+scoops
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      11-04-2010, 09:30 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
Isn't that interesting, very similar gains, and in the same areas of the curve, and I'm well 3000 miles away?
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      11-04-2010, 10:29 AM   #25
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great results. you def have a very strong m3
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      11-04-2010, 10:39 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BT M3 View Post
Isn't that interesting, very similar gains, and in the same areas of the curve, and I'm well 3000 miles away?
read a little further
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      11-04-2010, 10:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
read a little further
I fully understand how it works and researched about 50 different non google crawled threads prior. Whether it has a hole in it or not doesn't make a difference as the engine is constantly pulling in vacuum at light and full throttle applications.

If you have any 3rd party data of you personally putting it on and off the dyno with a heavy cfm fan simulating (to the best of it's ability) real world air flow to disprove what I have found, feel free to post up those findings.

There will always be armchair tuners can debate theory and science all day on it. End of the day - that is what I found and I presented it above.

Post #216 and #404 explain your doubts a bit.

Last edited by BT M3; 11-04-2010 at 11:26 AM.
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      11-04-2010, 10:56 AM   #28
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Congrats!
Would this car with the right tires and a good launch hit 11s in the 1/4 mile?
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      11-04-2010, 10:58 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Chako View Post
Would this car with the right tires and a good launch hit 11s in the 1/4 mile?
I don't see why not - Drew did.

I took it to the track once a while ago before all of these mods were completed went 12.3@116 on stock tires 2.160ft. Left traction on and went down the track in "D."
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      11-04-2010, 11:07 AM   #30
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If I had a crayon and some paper, I too could get 400 wheel horsepower from bolt ons.

It amazes me that these threads persist. The only real gains available are cat delete with tune and pullies. The rest is BS.

If a guy who builds winning Grand-Am engines can't get 400 wheel hp from bolt ons, why should we believe some guy in his garage can?
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      11-04-2010, 11:08 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
If I had a crayon and some paper, I too could get 400 wheel horsepower from bolt ons.

It amazes me that these threads persist. The only real gains available are cat delete with tune and pullies. The rest is BS.

If a guy who builds winning Grand-Am engines can't get 400 wheel hp from bolt ons, why should we believe some guy in his garage can?
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      11-04-2010, 11:13 AM   #32
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In case it isn't clear enough:

I have ZERO vested interest in RPi or the cheap aluminum bent fins, or MS filters. Leave useless scoop comments out of this thread. Too each their own.

These were just my findings.
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      11-04-2010, 11:15 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BT M3 View Post
I don't see why not - Drew did.

I took it to the track once a while ago before all of these mods were completed went 12.3@116 on stock tires 2.160ft. Left traction on and went down the track in "D."
Good to hear. I think your car is a high 11 second car as well.

What do you think my car will dyno if I do all the boltons, but instead of doing a tune I use the Akrapovic Delete-R just to get rid of CEL? (No tune.) (Ie. RPi scoops, Drop-in filter, Pulley, Test pipe, Ti. axleback)

Also, did you get the Turner testpipes, or something custom from an exhaust shop? Thanks!

It's great to see bolt-on M3s achieving 400WHP+. At the flywheel that means you're really ~470 BHP then. Curious to see how this would dyno against a stock M3 GTS rated @ 450 BHP. (I understand the difficulty of comparing stock to modded though; and I understand that these mods could probably be applied to the GTS as well.)
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      11-04-2010, 11:24 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chako View Post
Good to hear. I think your car is a high 11 second car as well.

What do you think my car will dyno if I do all the boltons, but instead of doing a tune I use the Akrapovic Delete-R just to get rid of CEL? (No tune.) (Ie. RPi scoops, Drop-in filter, Pulley, Test pipe, Ti. axleback)

Also, did you get the Turner testpipes, or something custom from an exhaust shop? Thanks!

It's great to see bolt-on M3s achieving 400WHP+. At the flywheel that means you're really ~470 BHP then. Curious to see how this would dyno against a stock M3 GTS rated @ 450 BHP. (I understand the difficulty of comparing stock to modded though; and I understand that these mods could probably be applied to the GTS as well.)
The proper tune combined with test pipes are the most important parts of the equation, if you are going to take that out of the picture you are leaving major WHP on the table.

A delete-R is a useless odb2 clearer. Just spend the money on a good tune.

I did alot of research on exhausts too and pullies, an 18% reduction pulley seems to put down the best results (Dinan, Gintani) while not so much the other brands. And a PROPER exhaust system (Akra with it's H has shown to be meh). I picked Gintani because of the sound/look but the performance was a benefit.
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      11-04-2010, 11:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BT M3 View Post
In case it isn't clear enough:

I have ZERO vested interest in RPi or the cheap aluminum bent fins, or MS filters. Leave useless scoop comments out of this thread. Too each their own.

These were just my findings.
The scoop dig was only one of my points. To think you could get 50 engine hp out of bolt-ons is ridiculous.

I've been building engines longer than you've been alive. In the old days we got the biggest bang for the buck out of head work. We could get 50 hp from that due to the horrible build tolerances. Current engines are very well optimized. You'll only get meaningful improvements from capitalizing on design constraints like emission controls (catalysts) or engine life (boost controls). There ain't 50hp in the cats of an S65.

Nothing personal. I just want to slow down the spread of this BS that you can get a bunch of HP from bolt-ons.

Oh, and so I don't start a pissing match, I agree with you about the cat delete and tune being the biggest benefit. I just don't agree that it is as significant an improvement as people would have you believe.
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      11-04-2010, 11:53 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
The scoop dig was only one of my points. To think you could get 50 engine hp out of bolt-ons is ridiculous.

I've been building engines longer than you've been alive. In the old days we got the biggest bang for the buck out of head work. We could get 50 hp from that due to the horrible build tolerances. Current engines are very well optimized. You'll only get meaningful improvements from capitalizing on design constraints like emission controls (catalysts) or engine life (boost controls). There ain't 50hp in the cats of an S65.

Nothing personal. I just want to slow down the spread of this BS that you can get a bunch of HP from bolt-ons.
Are you saying my results from stock to now are false? That the car hasn't on many separate occasions put down 400+whp on the same dyno it rolled in on at 340 average (on my occasions. Many others have got these results. This is nothing new. 3000 Miles away JonMartin (with my same setup minus full cat delete and 91 oct) http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=261026

Since you are significantly older then me what that tells me is that you are used to twisting a screwdriver and using a timing light to tune your car and that you are out of touch with common EFI mapping. The correct remapping of modern torque limiters, drive by wire closure restrictions, extensive VANOS mapping and different fuel and timing strategies for catalyst deletes have released major documented N/A horsepower in the S65 and S85 motor. If you can teach me something new (with supporting data) here - I'm all ears.

Don't take this as a personal attack but look at this argument as an outsider - because you are older and built some ancient motors you are single handily going to disprove what individuals and shops have been documented doing with these cars since 2008. Do you have supporting data that your custom OE tune and primary cat delete put down significantly less power? If not it really isn't an apples to apples comparison - Agreed?

Last edited by BT M3; 11-04-2010 at 11:59 AM.
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      11-04-2010, 12:03 PM   #37
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Your own data claimed 11 hp for a filter and 3 hp for scoops. Do we need to drag this on? You, as many others here have done, are promoting bullshit. You've been called on it and back-peddled. If you get the numbers you claimed for scoops and a filter change, what are we to think about the rest of your results?
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      11-04-2010, 12:12 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
Your own data claimed 11 hp for a filter and 3 hp for scoops. Do we need to drag this on? You, as many others here have done, are promoting bullshit. You've been called on it and back-peddled. If you get the numbers you claimed for scoops and a filter change, what are we to think about the rest of your results?
Joe, let's get a few things straight before we move on.

A) I am promoting nothing.

B) The result was high on the filter which I agree too, the stock filter tested was DIRTY and had some mileage on it. Others have independently tested 7-8whp. I did my due diligence of full disclosure of the stock filters condition. Have you tested a filter independently - if so please share. If not, move along.

C) The scoops were installed on the dyno and the 3hp could easily be variance. I had the scoops installed incorrectly for about 2 months. I did my due diligence of full disclosure. Once again, Have you tested scoops independently - if so please share. If not, move along.

D) If you don't like my results feel free to move onto another Dinan thread or are my wheels going to fall off from 3 thread engagement - your post history shows no value of any sort of M3 development, testing but I'll keep an open mind so enlighten me.

E) Other RPi scoop results have found 10whp, other OE tune threads have shown my gains, and other x pipe threads have shown similar gains. I'm not exactly reinventing the wheel here.

Odds are your next post doesn't bring in real documented factual evidence disproving anything here. Please bring more to the table other then a tinfoil hat.
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      11-04-2010, 12:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Last week, we had a Dynapack dyno day. One car put down 390whp on just an Akra, ECU tune, air filter, and 91 octane. No 93 octane, no underdrive pulley, and no air scoops. Just an exaust, filter, a good tune, and crappy 91 octane.
At least I'm not the only crazy one - but remember i have no real X pipe

Quote:
The problem with measuring air scoops, is that the dyno fans don't adjust CFM to simulate road speed. This was all discussed in the thread JO8M3 referenced (I know...because I discussed it). The dyno fans don't increase air velocity with hub RPM. Only one or two dyno's even have this ability -- and one of them that has this capability (Rototest) is finally getting installed at a US tuning shop sometime next year. Also in that thread, it was suggested to run some vBox times with and without the scoops. I'm pretty sure somebody said they'd do it...but I don't recall ever seeing the results.
I totally agree here there is ambiguity - I'm just posting what I saw.

Quote:

I love the Dynapack for its hydraulic load -- just like a real motor dyno. IMO, it's the most accurate method to measure the engine itself without taking it out of the car.
I agree

Quote:
But the Dynapack "SAE Adapted" correction is a bastard child. Dynapack "SAE Adapted" uses non-standard temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity references. It's a true bastard child because pre-SAE-J1349 used one set of reference values, SAE-J1349 used a new set, and Dynapack uses a mixture that conforms to neither. That's why it's a true bastard child for SAE correction. If you use "SAE J1349 (2004)" correction on your dynapack, then you will be using the correct method for correction -- the same one Dynojet (and I think just about everybody else) uses. Changing to J1349 correction, 407.7 should end up around 391whp. Still a great number.
Let me verify this when I am back on the dyno Saturday. IIRC there is only one SAE (Adapted) setting on the 4000.

Quote:
Another thing affecting the results on the Dynapack is the gear ratio. If you let the dyno estimate the gear ratio, then the results won't be correct. Jon Martin's was like this. And by the time I figured out how to correct for it, his results were adjusted even higher by the results. The only way to know for sure is to post all of the files. Anybody with a decent amount of knowledge will be able to look and see if something is wrong. You've got all of the Dyno Files. Archive them, and post them for everybody to download.
I won't ever use a gear estimator, not my procedure. It's never accurate and when the car is redlining and the tach is 1000 rpm away from the limiter on the dyno that's more of an annoyance and waste of dyno time then anything. We manually input every number. For my car we've used the same standard and gear setting saved file for each run every done. No variance there.

For customers with unknown gear and rear end swaps (E30 M3 with mystery trans and euro S50) is the only time I've ever use it is to check a wild manual input that doesn't sound right and see if it matches on the tach.

Last edited by BT M3; 11-04-2010 at 01:04 PM.
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      11-04-2010, 01:04 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BT M3 View Post
...

Odds are your next post doesn't bring in real documented factual evidence disproving anything here. Please bring more to the table other then a tinfoil hat.
Dinan claims 23 hp from cat removal and tune. Maybe that's a little conservative. I think AA was around 30hp. Robert just noted a best effort of something around 391 hp. You claim +67 hp to 407; no small difference.

There are a lot of people here with a vested interest in promoting snake oil. There are even more people here who need to justify their expenditures on snake oil.

All the reputable vendors claim realistic numbers for bolt on horsepower. You are double their numbers. I can't bring my numbers to the table, because I'm not going to waste my time and money chasing shadows.

And yes, I did use to tune with a timing light, but now I use my laptop to log data from the obd port. If you followed the DCT lag thread you might note that I was the only person to actually record an episode of the transmission lag. So I'm not a total curmudgean.
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      11-04-2010, 01:17 PM   #41
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great gains!!!!
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      11-04-2010, 01:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
Dinan claims 23 hp from cat removal and tune. Maybe that's a little conservative. I think AA was around 30hp. Robert just noted a best effort of something around 391 hp. You claim +67 hp to 407; no small difference.

There are a lot of people here with a vested interest in promoting snake oil. There are even more people here who need to justify their expenditures on snake oil.

All the reputable vendors claim realistic numbers for bolt on horsepower. You are double their numbers. I can't bring my numbers to the table, because I'm not going to waste my time and money chasing shadows.

And yes, I did use to tune with a timing light, but now I use my laptop to log data from the obd port. If you followed the DCT lag thread you might note that I was the only person to actually record an episode of the transmission lag. So I'm not a total curmudgean.
It's fun being one of the first to release something like this publically because all the green M3 guys go by conservative manufacturers will jump in and say "I think AA claims 30." But thanks for proving what I said.

FACT: I was mostly impressed with DLJS5 and JonMartin's and Vic55's, Shaunt's results when I was coming out of my modified E46 M3 back in 2008. After purchasing the car - I mimicked their setups and 2 years later got.....similar results. If you want your eyes opened google their names, dynos, setups, builds, track results, youtube comparison videos. Sometimes you need to read in between the lines and not a vendors white paper to find the results you desire.

Let's be serious here - I have no expenditure to justify on $90 bent pieces of aluminum or $80 air filter and clamping on some FREE sections of pipes.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
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      11-04-2010, 03:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BT M3 View Post
Apparently not that extensive of a debate ...
Hmm, if you don't call that thread a fairly epic debate I'm not sure we can agree on anything. Furthermore if you claim +10 hp from scoops is a proven fact we won't be able to agree on that either.

1/4 mi times and or some Vbox numbers would be most insightful to this debate as to what you car is actually putting down. I also doubt 65+ hp with bolt ons and software.

"Snake oil": Perhaps RJs term is a bit harsh. However, I have the same attitude/approach he does with products like scoops. The manufacturer does crappy non repeatable testing, perhaps with a bad dyno or not properly controlled dyno. No one shows any real world gains. Then many followers also report dyno gains and attribute them to that particular product (or even more innocently to a group of mods). Soon many are wasting money on a mod that does nothing and actively or passively promoting the product. The product might not be expensive but it will surely be overpriced and a waste. You might bash the scientific approach but what if I claimed I got 20 hp from a magnet placed on the side of my engine. Science (and common sense based on science) would tell you the claim is BS.
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Last edited by swamp2; 11-04-2010 at 03:28 PM.
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      11-04-2010, 04:05 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Hmm, if you don't call that thread a fairly epic debate I'm not sure we can agree on anything. Furthermore if you claim +10 hp from scoops is a proven fact we won't be able to agree on that either.

1/4 mi times and or some Vbox numbers would be most insightful to this debate as to what you car is actually putting down. I also doubt 65+ hp with bolt ons and software.

"Snake oil": Perhaps RJs term is a bit harsh. However, I have the same attitude/approach he does with products like scoops. The manufacturer does crappy non repeatable testing, perhaps with a bad dyno or not properly controlled dyno. No one shows any real world gains. Then many followers also report dyno gains and attribute them to that particular product (or even more innocently to a group of mods). Soon many are wasting money on a mod that does nothing and actively or passively promoting the product. The product might not be expensive but it will surely be overpriced and a waste. You might bash the scientific approach but what if I claimed I got 20 hp from a magnet placed on the side of my engine. Science (and common sense based on science) would tell you the claim is BS.
Welcome to the aftermarket tuning game. Half the tuning files / products I've tested are garbage and incorrect claims. I'm sure some have installed parts that were useless based off internet marketing I.E. Technocraft Envy I.E AFE Stage 1 e9x M3. (IB4vendors)

However, these are "my results" for my personal car that I share with the community. I'm not here to sway anyones opinion. I make my own conclusions from results I see first hand. And try to make my best educated guess before the purchase based on a complex line of reasoning. I modded the car from what I thought would be most effective for the $ based off what I learned from JonMartin's car in 08'
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