First Time in Open Passing (...and what I learned)

[Davisca455]

The private track group I'm in typically has 3 run groups, R Group (Race), A Group (Open Passing) and B Group (Point By).

After the previous event, they gently asked me to try Open Passing next time out, but only if I was comfortable giving it a try.
They said I could move back to Point By if I got uncomfortable.

So I signed up for A Group and off to Laguna Seca yesterday (12 lifetime events, 61 years old).

Unfortunately they ended up combining the R and A groups yesterday because of low turnout, so there was 31 cars in the group with one guy doing 1:35s, another doing 1:38s, a couple doing 1:40.xx, something like 10 drivers of the 31 at 1:44 and under.

First Session:
The grid had a left lane and a right lane.
When I noticed full roll cages, slicks and painted on numbers lining up in the right lane, I gridded in the middle of the left lane.

Obviously, the left lane was released first...UGH!

Was actually holding my own at low 1:48s, and when I caught slower cars I exercised some patience and waited for safe places to pass.
But that slowed me down, and that's when a small pack of cars that I had been maintaining gap on caught me.
Those drivers were much more aggressive than I was, so I just slowed until they were all by.

By lap 3, the freight train of race cars (all trying to get their qualifying times) were on me, so I stayed on line, slowed as they got along side of me, then picked up my pace again.
(Was really in my mirrors!)

But now there weren't any cars in my mirrors, so picked up my pace and started to catch some of the cars I had let go.
Got thru most of them ok, felt like I was starting to get the idea, but then...close call with a Miata.

Got to his bumper at the sound booth between T5 and T6.
Decided that I wasn't going to dive bomb him into T6, so I moved back in line behind him.
As he tracks out to the far right, I undercut to the far left side of the track.
I had a big closing rate on him and just as I'm about to overtake (half way up the hilltop to the Corkscrew) he moves left.
I had to stand on the brake pedal to keep from making contact.
"Fine, I'll just pass you after T11.", which I did and then never saw him again.

The rest of the session was uneventful and tons of fun.

Session 2:
Everyone did a better job of gridding.
I gridded about 5 cars deep on the right lane, right behind the Miata.
I passed him going up the hill to the Corkscrew.
He moved left nice and early and gave me a lane on the right to get by this time.
The early laps I made a handful of uneventful passes.

Later in the session some faster cars caught me, so I was all concerned and in my mirrors again.
Purely by accident I noticed there were no cars behind them, so I stayed predictable, slowed when they got along side and then had open track the rest of the session.

Session 3:
Made another adjustment on who to grid behind, and in front of.
The most anxiety I felt, was a pass I made on a Mustang going into T5.
I had a good rate of closure, moved to the left, got along side under the bridge, was all the way in front, but not quite enough room to move back to the right and get to the proper turn in spot.
Had to stay on the left and hug the inside, but had enough room to track out.
"Sorry man."

Approaching T4, a Corvette got his left front fender along side my right rear quarter panel.
If had gone for the apex we would have tangled.
He put WAY too much trust in me.
He was faster than me and I had planned to make it easy on him exiting T4, but I ended up slowing and going wide, where the marbles were not so bad as I had imagined. But many eff bombs were echoing in my helmet.

What I learned:
1) Using my mirror to look for open track.
Normally when looking for open track, it was because of cars in front of me.
My solution was to pull onto the Pit Lane, pull up the the Steward and ask to be let out when there was a gap.

2) Most drivers are very reasonable and err on the side of getting their cars home in one piece, but don't assume EVERYONE has their mindset in that space.

3) Having Racers that are racing for their Qualifying times, mixed in with HPDE drivers is not a recipe I intend to experience again.
I'll wait to sign up until I know there isn't an attendance issue.

[dogbone]

Being aware of your surroundings and being predictable—-those are two of the biggest things in open passing. Sounds like you were doing both. Good stuff.

As far as gridding, it’s always a crap shoot unless they grid by lap time, and even that’s not perfect. Sometimes I just skip the first 5 minutes of a session which allows me to avoid gridding and out lap adventures. I never understand why some people (who aren’t very quick) ride your bumper on an out lap…..they even do it in TT sometimes….so strange.

Overall it sounds like you sorted it out.

[Frostynorth]

Dang, can't imagine how this feels when on track. Being a complete novice, even point by is a lot to manage. Thanks for sharing

[Davisca455]

Session1:
Close call with the Miata heading up to the Corkscrew (that's derbo in front of me)

Session2:
I gridded behind the Miata, but not on purpose.

...later in Session2:
My 4 day old windshield (190miles fresh) gets an initiation.

[Frostynorth]

Is the track that blinding in person or is it just the camera?

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by Frostynorth

Is the track that blinding in person or is it just the camera?

No, I'm a shitty GoPro operator.
There is a setting to get it to white balance out the windshield, but i forgot to set it.

[slcook54]

Like others said, be predictable. My initial instinct was to go off line and get out of people's way, but its better to stay on line so other folks know where you're headed.

Also, even if it is open, I still opt to point folks by. When I can see someone catching me, I'll point them by. If they are catching up fast, letting off the gas can surprise people since they have no visual queue that you're slowing down to let them by. This happened to me at Thunderhill (with your buddy in the Carrera) last time out.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by slcook54

Like others said, be predictable. My initial instinct was to go off line and get out of people's way, but its better to stay on line so other folks know where you're headed.

Also, even if it is open, I still opt to point folks by. When I can see someone catching me, I'll point them by. If they are catching up you fast, letting off the gas can surprise people since they have no visual queue that you're slowing down to let them by. This happened to me at Thunderhill (with your buddy in the Carrera) last time out.

Yes, great advice.
I was pointing some folks by, or tapping my mirror, and some were pointing me by.
And I agree, dumping throttle before some has pulled along side is the same thing as a brake check. Just asking for trouble.

[bigjae1976]

I'd be curious to find out if there are any insurance or waiver issues with mixing point by and open passing.

The only organizations I would trust to run an event like that would be BMWCCA, PCA and a TX org - Driver's Edge. There are a lot of morons out there.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'd be curious to find out if there are any insurance or waiver issues with mixing point by and open passing.

The only organizations I would trust to run an event like that would be BMWCCA, PCA and a TX org - Driver's Edge. There are a lot of morons out there.

This was with a private org that has been around for decades, CFRA.
When open passing folks are doing double duty in the point by group, point by rules apply.
When first stepping up to open passing from point by, you tape an "X" to the back of your car to identify yourself as a newb.

The vast majority of the members have known each other for a looong time, but are in no way cliquey.

My first event with them was last Fall, Point By.
The morning of, they came and found me in the paddock and handed me a transponder.
I said, not necessary, not interested in lap times, just here to have fun.
They said "It's more for us, so we can get an idea of your pace."
So I zip tied the thing on, and went about my day as if it wasn't there (almost drove home with it still on the car).
The next day I opened the link to the transponder data and found I was doing 1:54s, 1:53s and a few 1:52s.

My 3rd event with them (Point By) was last February, also at Laguna, and was doing 1:49s, 1:48s and a couple of 1:47s.

After that event they asked if I might be comfortable signing up for the Open Passing group next event, so that's what I did.

But after Sunday, I contacted their Race Director and told him it was too many cars (31) on track for my taste, and that in the future I had no interest in signing up for such a large combined group that included race cars, that are racing.
He understood and said that was not what they wanted to do either.

Just my unfortunate luck that the circumstances weren't good for me that day, but also it was definitely a skill building day.
Overall it probably turned out to be a good "personal growth" experience, and the car made it home in one piece.

I actually didn't have any trouble with the racers themselves when they were coming through.

It was just a LOT to process for a first time (still processing), especially when I was so used to being one of the cars in front of the Point By group, not so many overtaking cars to deal with.

In hindsight, I should have asked more questions about passing etiquette and techniques when in an open passing group because there are some big differences.
Going in to it, I just didn't have any understanding of what was an acceptable or unacceptable pass.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

This was with a private org that has been around for decades, CFRA.
When open passing folks are doing double duty in the point by group, point by rules apply.
When first stepping up to open passing from point by, you tape an "X" to the back of your car to identify yourself as a newb.

The vast majority of the members have known each other for a looong time, but are in no way cliquey.

My first event with them was last Fall, Point By.
The morning of, they came and found me in the paddock and handed me a transponder.
I said, not necessary, not interested in lap times, just here to have fun.
They said "It's more for us, so we can get an idea of your pace."
So I zip tied the thing on, and went about my day as if it wasn't there (almost drove home with it still on the car).
The next day I opened the link to the transponder data and found I was doing 1:54s, 1:53s and a few 1:52s.

My 3rd event with them (Point By) was last February, also at Laguna, and was doing 1:49s, 1:48s and a couple of 1:47s.

After that event they asked if I might be comfortable signing up for the Open Passing group next event, so that's what I did.

But after Sunday, I contacted their Race Director and told him it was too many cars (31) on track for my taste, and that in the future I had no interest in signing up for such a large combined group that included race cars, that are racing.
He understood and said that was not what they wanted to do either.

Just my unfortunate luck that the circumstances weren't good for me that day, but also it was definitely a skill building day.
Overall it probably turned out to be a good "personal growth" experience, and the car made it home in one piece.

I actually didn't have any trouble with the racers themselves when they were coming through.

It was just a LOT to process for a first time (still processing), especially when I was so used to being one of the cars in front of the Point By group, not so many overtaking cars to deal with.

In hindsight, I should have asked more questions about passing etiquette and techniques when in an open passing group because there are some big differences.
Going in to it, I just didn't have any understanding of what was an acceptable or unacceptable pass.

Y'all were running a race with HPDE, or accommodating Qualifying ? A race would be highly unusual and to everyone's detriment. Qualifying shouldn't amount to more than time trials or advanced HPDE. When running for the fastest times it's generally not in anyones best interest to pass except along straights which should be a nonissue.

I hate required point-bys events. The control tends to exacerbate egos and high HP cars become rolling chicanes for those desiring higher corner entry. Then after a lap or two my ego flares and I bury my bumper in their ass until they get spooked. Which isn't good for anyone. 😬

Open passing is where it's at, but the onus is on the passer to study the leader to assess situational awareness. If they're oblivious and you can take them on a straight that's best. If they're more experienced a late brake pass is easy and ideal if you can carry higher entry. If you know they're very aware and comfortable, then running 2 wide through 99% of corners on tracks is a non issue.

Although it can be alarming, running really close is much safer, and by close I mean no more than arms reach. While you might bump, there's less room for a damaging impact.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Y'all were running a race with HPDE, or accommodating Qualifying ? A race would be highly unusual and to everyone's detriment. Qualifying shouldn't amount to more than time trials or advanced HPDE. When running for the fastest times it's generally not in anyones best interest to pass except along straights which should be a nonissue.

I hate required point-bys events. The control tends to exacerbate egos and high HP cars become rolling chicanes for those desiring higher corner entry. Then after a lap or two my ego flares and I bury my bumper in their ass until they get spooked. Which isn't good for anyone. 😬

Open passing is where it's at, but the onus is on the passer to study the leader to assess situational awareness. If they're oblivious and you can take them on a straight that's best. If they're more experienced a late brake pass is easy and ideal if you can carry higher entry. If you know they're very aware and comfortable, then running 2 wide through 99% of corners on tracks is a non issue.

Although it can be alarming, running really close is much safer, and by close I mean no more than arms reach. While you might bump, there's less room for a damaging impact.

Sorry, they were accommodating Qualifying.
The actual race was a separate session just for the racers, at the end of the day.
They just came through in clusters, so I assumed they were racing (again, my first time).

The scariest situation was when one of the HPDE drivers had their left front fender alongside my right rear bumper entering a right hander (T4). I knew he was closing, and had I not checked my side view mirror at the last second, I would have turned in to the apex and there would have been a collision.
Had to maneuver to the middle of the track to give him room.
But glad he didn't overshoot and slide into me.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

Sorry, they were accommodating Qualifying.
The actual race was a separate session just for the racers, at the end of the day.
They just came through in clusters, so I assumed they were racing (again, my first time).

The scariest situation was when one of the HPDE drivers had their left front fender alongside my right rear bumper entering a right hander (T4). I knew he was closing, and had I not checked my side view mirror at the last second, I would have turned in to the apex and there would have been a collision.
Had to maneuver to the middle of the track to give him room.
But glad he didn't overshoot and slide into me.

Maybe - Or he was going to fall in line behind you conceding the corner because you were going to hit the apex first. You can be on the inside or the corner and fall in behind the faster car (which might have the better radius and entry speed). Make sense?

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Maybe - Or he was going to fall in line behind you conceding the corner because you were going to hit the apex first. You can be on the inside or the corner and fall in behind the faster car (which might have the better radius and entry speed). Make sense?

Could be.
The only way I can describe it is when I checked my passenger side mirror as I got to the white triangle at the end of the rumble strip (where I turn in), his fender was less than a foot away from my quarter panel.
I was convinced I either go straight or turn onto his car?

Basically this...

[slcook54]

Chris, you need a build thread.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

Could be.
The only way I can describe it is when I checked my passenger side mirror as I got to the white triangle at the end of the rumble strip (where I turn in), his fender was less than a foot away from my quarter panel.
I was convinced I either go straight or turn onto his car?

Basically this...

You turn in, he falls behind you.

[rhyary]

@Davisca455 ,

My experience in open trackday sharing the road with LMP3 :-)

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by rhyary

@Davisca455 ,

My experience in open trackday sharing the road with LMP3 :-)

Ok, not an LMP3, but a pretty bitchen Camero...
His transmission is louder than my Akra, How does he even pass sound?

[Davisca455]

A lap and a half at the end of Session 1.

[djschmitt]

Wanted to pop and thank y'all for the thread and Davisca455 for the videos. I'm signing up for my first HPDE event at Laguna Seca in October and am trying to read, watch, and learn what I can before the event. I've done classes at Sonoma and this will be my first third party event.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by djschmitt

Wanted to pop and thank y'all for the thread and Davisca455 for the videos. I'm signing up for my first HPDE event at Laguna Seca in October and am trying to read, watch, and learn what I can before the event. I've done classes at Sonoma and this will be my first third party event.

If you are watching videos of Laguna, I highly recommend this one.

slcook54 sent this to me a couple of days ago.

I have a love/hate relationship with this video .
I love watching it right after watching my video, but then I can't stand to look at myself in the mirror.
Just kidding...sort of...but not really.

I really I love listening to what he is doing with his shifting.
There isn't much more I can try to apply from it (not enough talent), but at least I can try out some new shifting ideas next time out.

[slcook54]

That's Chris fsmtnbiker fyi.