M3 vs 335i

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by ward

paragraphs are your friend

Everyone tells him that, on every one of his posts, here and over in the e90post forum and he never listens, hence why I never read his posts.

[spearfisher]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Agreed, and that's why I'm quite disappointed in the e92 M3 specs.

For one, the same price GT-R will give it a beat down in any performance measure and has just as much history and heritage.

The C63 will be a monster in a straight line and AMG is getting better in the handling department.

The CTS-V is being redesigned. They weren't too far off last go round.

The RS4 came out 2 years ago with virtually the same engine specs as the new M3.

the mans got a point

[drvai]

The GT-R will be a great car, but the spirit of the car itself is completely different (I'm not saying that is better or worse, it's just another thing). The same thing goes for american cars and that's before talking about the quality of american cars... german quality and "feel" is something else.

What can beat the M3 (in the same department) is the new RS4, which will be launched in at least a couple of years..... Will all depend on how hard Audi works. I don't thunk that they will use an engine with much more power than the M3. It's supposed to be a V10 and MUCH more expensive. MRSP will be at least 70k. The same think happened with the old generation. The old M3 had 330HP, after a couple of years, the 420HP RS4 came and although it was prefered by a lot of people over the E46 M3, it was very expensive and the performance wasn't that over the M3.

And the last thing... as jeremy Clarkson said: BMW invented the compact performance cars and even though other manufactures have been trying to imitate it with good results, they still are copies.

The same things happens with the S class. 7 series, lexus, infinnity, etc.. make great large saloons, but the S class is the king... no matter what.

[drvai]

Please note that I'm not saying the M3 will be the king for ever, I am just saying that Audi, Lexus and MB will have to create the hell of a machine in order to beat BMW.

[spearfisher]

It's all about evolution, the M3 was the top dog for several generations, have had a chance to perfect their product.

now there are many entries into the category, getting close.

1. Benz has gotten a lot better, use to be to soft.
2. Lexus, 1st try out is a hell of a try.
3. RS4 was better than the E46 M3, now the New M3 is better.

even for me, I always liked Corvettes, but wasn't impressed by their performance or looks until the C6 came out and waited for a mid cycle change, which I choose the 08 LS3, now if the Corvette did not evolve, I would have waited for the M3.

I've always bought BMW's, due to the driving dynamics and performance. Have to admit in 2001, an E46 M3 would do 13.0-13.2 consistently at Moroso, in 2001 that was very impressive.

[consolidated]

I can afford either car, I just don't WANT a 335i, I do WANT an M3. To distinguish a 335i it requires mods, software, wheels, tape on body parts, whatever. In the end you've "saved" a few thousand dollars, voided your warranty, and will lose all of what you saved at resale if not more.

[footie]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Really, exactly what differences are not mechanical? Style? Nothing tuners won't address if you prefer. Heck, I can already even order a CF "power dome" hood!

But can you buy a CF roof.

Originally Posted by sdiver68

At Kyalami, South Africa F1 certified track, the 335i Sedan was tested within 1 second lap times of the M3. 1 second. Because this track is at altitude, penalizing the M3 in power more than the 335i thus narrowing the stock-for-stock power gap, I take this to mean all the additional aspects of the M3...wider, better tires, LSD, EDC, M-badge, etc... all added up to 1 second. I also take this to mean that when I add a nice A/M suspension, power upgrades, wheel/tire upgrades, even without the LSD I would expect at least 1 second in improvement.

I reckon you should move to S.Africa, then you will be within a second of an M3 on the track there.

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Nordschleife times are very HP dependent due to the high speed nature of the track, and of course tires. I'd be willing to bet that an equivalent power/tire/suspended 335i would at least = the M3. We will find out over the next year as track reports come rolling in.

So what about their respective times on Hockenheim, this track isn't a HP dependent and yet the M3 is quick enough to classified as in another class if it was racing cars.

Originally Posted by sdiver68

I agree, World's best 3 series is a great title to have, because that also implies world's best sport sedan and practical sized coupe.

As far as your "animal" comment, I've been reading that over and over again in the 335i Forced Induction forum...right after someone adds one of the various power options available. I said it after moving to lightweight forged wheels, shedding 44 lbs of unsprung weight in the process. e46 M3 drivers said it to me at the track.

They are different cars and that is why I used to title 'different animal' it was not to play down the 335i's role in the range more so to show that the two cars are competing for different customers. But if you intention would always be to tune the car then any N/A engined car isn't really the best place to start.

[sdiver68]

OK, we will agree to disagree on who the respective cars are competing for, because for 1 they are competing for me.

2, I am not aware of any"official" track comparisons between a slightly modded 335i and the e90/92 m3. There is a guy with a Dinan modified 335i, reported to be an experienced racer, over on e90post that reports beating Porsche GT3's and Vette's at Laguna. If that's the case, then the M3 will suffer the same fate.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108953

Interesting thing is this is the first guy who has reported an issue with the brakes, but based on his racing resume also may have flogged the car the hardest or been on a heavy braking track.

Like I said, we'll know more this year.

[ddsm3]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

OK, we will agree to disagree on who the respective cars are competing for, because for 1 they are competing for me.

2, I am not aware of any"official" track comparisons between a slightly modded 335i and the e90/92 m3. There is a guy with a Dinan modified 335i, reported to be an experienced racer, over on e90post that reports beating Porsche GT3's and Vette's at Laguna. If that's the case, then the M3 will suffer the same fate.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108953
Interesting thing is this is the first guy who has reported an issue with the brakes, but based on his racing resume also may have flooged the car the hardest or been on a heavy braking track.

Like I said, we'll know more this year.

The 997 gt3 drivers were not pushing it or were shitty drivers. There is no way any 335i will keep up with a 997 gt3 with equally qualified drivers. NO WAY in hell. The gt3 weighs 400lbs less and has more hp, better tires, better suspension and better brakes. In regards to the m3.

Stock 335i decently equipped. 46k
Dinan exhaust 1900
Dinan Software 2000
Dinan Diff 3500
Dinan Suspension 1500
Dinan oil cooler 2000
Dinan 19" wheels 4000
plus 2000 install(lowballing this one)

63000 bucks and you have a car that still has less HP than an m3
worse brakes
worse interior (smaller steering wheel, not as nice of seats or leather)
doesn't look as good (no fender flares, quad exhaust, rear diffuser, trunk lip, cf roof, m front bumper, hood buldge etc)
does not sound as good as the m3 v8 ( no argument here I hope)

All this and still have a slower car. With all of these mods, the 335 will still have 40 less hp, a suspension that is equally as good, a diff. that is probably as not as good(based on the probs with dinans previous diffs), a car that does not look as good and has worse brakes. The 335i is a great car, but is no competition for an m3. Spending over 15 grand in mods and comparing it to another car is stupid. The rs4, c63 and is-f are it's competition.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by ddsm3

The 997 gt3 drivers were not pushing it or were shitty drivers. There is no way any 335i will keep up with a 997 gt3 with equally qualified drivers. NO WAY in hell. The gt3 weighs 400lbs less and has more hp, better tires, better suspension and better brakes. In regards to the m3.

Stock 335i decently equipped. 46k
Dinan exhaust 1900
Dinan Software 2000
Dinan Diff 3500
Dinan Suspension 1500
Dinan oil cooler 2000
Dinan 19" wheels 4000
plus 2000 install(lowballing this one)

63000 bucks and you have a car that still has less HP than an m3
worse brakes
worse interior (smaller steering wheel, not as nice of seats or leather)
doesn't look as good (no fender flares, quad exhaust, rear diffuser, trunk lip, cf roof, m front bumper, hood buldge etc)
does not sound as good as the m3 v8 ( no argument here I hope)

All this and still have a slower car. With all of these mods, the 335 will still have 40 less hp, a suspension that is equally as good, a diff. that is probably as not as good(based on the probs with dinans previous diffs), a car that does not look as good and has worse brakes. The 335i is a great car, but is no competition for an m3. Spending over 15 grand in mods and comparing it to another car is stupid. The rs4, c63 and is-f are it's competition.

It's not your fault, you don't know better. He is the only one to complain about the brakes, no one else had issues including myself with brakes that are bigger than those on the e46 M3.

BTW, the GT3 actual weight versus the 335i is less than 200 lbs difference, maybe even under 100 lbs. Edmunds weighed their test GT3 at 3283 lbs, C&D weighed their 335i test car at 3366 lbs. But you can go argue with the man about his track results, you have a log-in.

Those prices are way too high, that's what he gets for buying Dinan.

Decently equipped 335i e90 Step incl trip for ED: $42K
KW V3 $2K
BBS Forged Wheels $3K
Vishnu tune $1.6K
Quiafe Diff:$2K <--optional except for Auto-X, price could be higher if you get the welded differential
BBK = $3.5K <--optional but nice, also note M3 reviews complained about brakes so what's good for the goose...
=
$54K for a car with more HP, way more TQ, much better brakes, equal suspension, virtually same interior, much better fuel economy, 250 lbs lighter, better resale value, and all-around faster than an equivalent 63K+? (with M-DCT) e90 M3. Oh, and a free trip to Germany and Q-ship cool points to boot!

Oh forgot 1 more thing in the prices above:

Look on drivers face in M3 when he has to give a wave around? Priceless!

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

It's not your fault, you don't know better. He is the only one to complain about the brakes, no one else had issues including myself with brakes that are bigger than those on the e46 M3.

BTW, the GT3 actual weight versus the 335i is less than 200 lbs difference, maybe even under 100 lbs. Edmunds weighed their test GT3 at 3283 lbs, C&D weighed their 335i test car at 3366 lbs. But you can go argue with the man about his track results, you have a log-in.

Those prices are way too high, that's what he gets for buying Dinan.

Decently equipped 335i e90 Step incl trip for ED: $42K
KW V3 $2K
BBS Forged Wheels $3K
Vishnu tune $1.6K
Quiafe Diff:$2K <--optional except for Auto-X, price could be higher if you get the welded differential
BBK = $3.5K <--optional but nice, also note M3 reviews complained about brakes so what's good for the goose...
=
$54K for a car with more HP, way more TQ, much better brakes, equal suspension, virtually same interior, much better fuel economy, 250 lbs lighter, better resale value, and all-around faster than an equivalent 63K+? (with M-DCT) e90 M3. Oh, and a free trip to Germany and Q-ship cool points to boot!

Oh forgot 1 more thing in the prices above:

Look on drivers face in M3 when he has to give a wave around? Priceless!

Here is what I said in the main forum.

Originally Posted by Epacy

There is already a big discussion on this in the "M3 vs" forum. Go there and try to convert people.

Looks like you did just that.

And your response trying to appear neutral.

Originally Posted by sdiver68

I have no dog in this fight.

And my response.

Originally Posted by Epacy

I don't have to assume anything. It is all over your posts and everyone knows it.

After looking at your posts here, it is just as I said. Your "agenda" is all over your posts.
You just can't help yourself.

You've been totally exposed, for anyone who wasn't already aware of your behavior.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

It's not your fault, you don't know better. He is the only one to complain about the brakes, no one else had issues including myself with brakes that are bigger than those on the e46 M3.

BTW, the GT3 actual weight versus the 335i is less than 200 lbs difference, maybe even under 100 lbs. Edmunds weighed their test GT3 at 3283 lbs, C&D weighed their 335i test car at 3366 lbs. But you can go argue with the man about his track results, you have a log-in.

Those prices are way too high, that's what he gets for buying Dinan.

Decently equipped 335i e90 Step incl trip for ED: $42K
KW V3 $2K
BBS Forged Wheels $3K
Vishnu tune $1.6K
Quiafe Diff:$2K <--optional except for Auto-X, price could be higher if you get the welded differential
BBK = $3.5K <--optional but nice, also note M3 reviews complained about brakes so what's good for the goose...
=
$54K for a car with more HP, way more TQ, much better brakes, equal suspension, virtually same interior, much better fuel economy, 250 lbs lighter, better resale value, and all-around faster than an equivalent 63K+? (with M-DCT) e90 M3. Oh, and a free trip to Germany and Q-ship cool points to boot!

Oh forgot 1 more thing in the prices above:

Look on drivers face in M3 when he has to give a wave around? Priceless!

• I have never seen a 335 reported test weight anything near that light. Basecd on a 3571 quoted US weight do you really think the car weighs about 3350?
  
• Next, with the mods above you will have more torque but can you please show me the Vishnu package that offers hp > 414?
  
• All 335i since early in their production cycle have welded in diffs. Please clarify the cost for cutting out the welded in diff in the car. Good luck accelrating out of corners anywhere as fast as the M3 without the diff.
  
• Have you read the actual reported weights of the M3s that have been tested. You won't have a car 250 lb lighter than an M3 with the above scenario nor a power to weight ratio that will match the M3.
  
• DCT is an ace in the hole for straight line acceleration and track work.
  
• With all of that work and likely some more labor you missed you have a car close very close in performance to the M3 at about the same base price (M-DCT not included). Heck get a stripper sedan and it would be a wash in price.
  
• Good luck on warranty and resale on the hypothetical car above

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by swamp2

• I have never seen a 335 reported test weight anything near that light. Basecd on a 3571 quoted US weight do you really think the car weighs about 3350?
• Next, with the mods above you will have more torque but can you please show me the Vishnu package that offers hp > 414?
• All 335i since early in their production cycle have welded in diffs. Please clarify the cost for cutting out the welded in diff in the car. Good luck accelrating out of corners anywhere as fast as the M3 without the diff.
• Have you read the actual reported weights of the M3s that have been tested. You won't have a car 250 lb lighter than an M3 with the above scenario nor a power to weight ratio that will match the M3.
• DCT is an ace in the hole for straight line acceleration and track work.
• With all of that work and likely some more labor you missed you have a car close very close in performance to the M3 at about the same base price (M-DCT not included). Heck get a stripper sedan and it would be a wash in price.
• Good luck on warranty and resale on the hypothetical car above

Don't forget some M Magic

[OC ///M]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Comes complete w/voided warranty as equipped...
Decently equipped 335i e90 Step incl trip for ED: $42K
KW V3 $2K installed and corner-balanced? ...where do I sign?
BBS Forged Wheels $3K w/ what rubber? ...eehhh who cares?
Vishnu tune $1.6K
Quiafe Diff:$2K <--optional except for Auto-X, price could be higher if you get the welded differential
BBK = $3.5K <--optional but nice, also note M3 reviews complained about brakes so what's good for the goose...
=
$54K for a car with more HP, way more TQ, much better brakes, equal suspension, virtually same interior, much better fuel economy, 250 lbs lighter, better resale value,(not the way I equipped it) and all-around faster than an equivalent 63K+?

sdiver68: I've read some of your posts in the past & know you know your stuff so it really surprised me to see that you had written this...

You had me when you compared slapping coilovers on a 335 to the M calling the suspension "equal" ..if there was a sliver of credibility in what was written, it just vanished with that statement.

coupled with what Epacy pointed out...

Epacy: Your "agenda" is all over your posts.
You just can't help yourself.

[ddsm3]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

It's not your fault, you don't know better. He is the only one to complain about the brakes, no one else had issues including myself with brakes that are bigger than those on the e46 M3.

BTW, the GT3 actual weight versus the 335i is less than 200 lbs difference, maybe even under 100 lbs. Edmunds weighed their test GT3 at 3283 lbs, C&D weighed their 335i test car at 3366 lbs. But you can go argue with the man about his track results, you have a log-in.

Those prices are way too high, that's what he gets for buying Dinan.

Decently equipped 335i e90 Step incl trip for ED: $42K
KW V3 $2K
BBS Forged Wheels $3K
Vishnu tune $1.6K
Quiafe Diff:$2K <--optional except for Auto-X, price could be higher if you get the welded differential
BBK = $3.5K <--optional but nice, also note M3 reviews complained about brakes so what's good for the goose...
=
$54K for a car with more HP, way more TQ, much better brakes, equal suspension, virtually same interior, much better fuel economy, 250 lbs lighter, better resale value, and all-around faster than an equivalent 63K+? (with M-DCT) e90 M3. Oh, and a free trip to Germany and Q-ship cool points to boot!

Oh forgot 1 more thing in the prices above:

Look on drivers face in M3 when he has to give a wave around? Priceless!

You sound like a teenager. A decently equipped e92 coupe is 46k.

KWv3 = 2K
BBS wheels for 3k? lol try 4k
Vishnu = 1500
Diff = 2k + 1k install probably
Front and rear BBK installed = 4k

for 60k you can have a 335 that is still slower than an m3, but now with ZERO warranty unlike a Dinan equipped one. The m3 is probably only 60 lbs heavier than the 335i. I dunno where you got 250 from.

The gt3 and 335i only weigh 100 lbs apart. 335i faster than a gt3 around a track. LOL Okay, if Shummy is driving the 335i and Britney Spears is in the GT3.

46k (sports and premium pkg) for a brand new 335i coupe mom and dad buys teenage kid
12k on mods to make it almost as fast as an m3
getting it towed to the dealership because the engine blew and the dealer saying it cost 10k and warranty is void = priceless

[Simple1]

Originally Posted by ddsm3

You sound like a teenager. A decently equipped e92 coupe is 46k.

KWv3 = 2K
BBS wheels for 3k? lol try 4k
Vishnu = 1500
Diff = 2k + 1k install probably
Front and rear BBK installed = 4k

for 60k you can have a 335 that is still slower than an m3, but now with ZERO warranty unlike a Dinan equipped one. The m3 is probably only 60 lbs heavier than the 335i. I dunno where you got 250 from.

The gt3 and 335i only weigh 100 lbs apart. 335i faster than a gt3 around a track. LOL Okay, if Shummy is driving the 335i and Britney Spears is in the GT3.

46k (sports and premium pkg) for a brand new 335i coupe mom and dad buys teenage kid
12k on mods to make it almost as fast as an m3
getting it towed to the dealership because the engine blew and the dealer saying it cost 10k and warranty is void = priceless

couldn't have said it better myself and I own a 335 Sedan with 20K miles on it so yes I've driven it quite well and I know that getting an M is getting an M.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by Epacy

You've been totally exposed, for anyone who wasn't already aware of your behavior.

Except for 1 thing, I never said I did not think the 335i is the better car.

I said I have no OWNERSHIP BIAS since by the time the M3 is out, I can choose to exit my lease or extend it, or buy the car outright, with no financial penalty to switch to the M3, if I so choose.

Stick to the facts, and we'll ignore the ad hominem arguments.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by OC kid

sdiver68: I've read some of your posts in the past & know you know your stuff so it really surprised me to see that you had written this...

Truth hurts, huh?

If the EDC package is so superior, I would have expected it to show up in the lap times. The facts are, it has not.

Technically, EDC is superior, functionally I have not seen any proof, and in fact have seen a load of evidence that it is not any better than a set of track oriented coilovers.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by ddsm3

getting it towed to the dealership because the engine blew and the dealer saying it cost 10k and warranty is void = priceless

If the warranty issue is important to you, buy the Dinan power upgrade for $400 more. ~20 <HP than the M3 but much more TQ. As for prices, I own a 335i, all of those are prices including install that I've either negotiated or been offered. I actually even added $1K to the car to estimate the 2007-->2008 price increases, because my real ED quote for a 2007 335i Sedan with CA, Premium, Step, Sport, Paddles, Metal Paint, heated seats was just under $41K incl $1K for the trip. And I underestimated the 335i-M3 difference price in another way...by not including the taxes delta between the 2 cars.

Edit...I see Vishnu has lowered his prices from when I looked at it.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by swamp2

• I have never seen a 335 reported test weight anything near that light. Basecd on a 3571 quoted US weight do you really think the car weighs about 3350?
  
• Next, with the mods above you will have more torque but can you please show me the Vishnu package that offers hp > 414?
  
• All 335i since early in their production cycle have welded in diffs. Please clarify the cost for cutting out the welded in diff in the car. Good luck accelrating out of corners anywhere as fast as the M3 without the diff.
  
• Have you read the actual reported weights of the M3s that have been tested. You won't have a car 250 lb lighter than an M3 with the above scenario nor a power to weight ratio that will match the M3.
  
• DCT is an ace in the hole for straight line acceleration and track work.
  
• With all of that work and likely some more labor you missed you have a car close very close in performance to the M3 at about the same base price (M-DCT not included). Heck get a stripper sedan and it would be a wash in price.
  
• Good luck on warranty and resale on the hypothetical car above

About weight, do you think I quoted that weight without several points of reference? You know swamp, that I've been on the e90 335i forum almost daily for the last year and 1/2, do I really need to link again to proof?

True on the welded diffs, thankfully mine does not have it. With very much more track experience than you, I think I know the penalty of LSD versus not LSD. Cayman's don't have LSD but they still get around a track pretty well. LSD is most useful in auto-X, where very tight low speed corners put a premium on rear wheel traction. Regardless, if you want a LSD you can get one. I will say this to concede 1/2 a point to you, the differential is still my weakest argument. BMW knows this, which is why they went the Porsche Cayman route of actively making it hard on people to fix that issue.

DCT may or may not be better than the ZF Step. I hope it is. For the track only, it almost certainly is. I say this based on some Audi DCT reports that the ZF is better than Audi DCT.

No, I did not miss any labor work. I'm a far less than average mechanic and can do some work myself, I assume anyone can do what I can in the mechanics department. I do still have some connections from my racing days, perhaps the quotes I get for labor are much better than anyone else?

Resale is not an issue. If you flog either car repeatedly, both will suffer. If you don't and take care of it, all of those items except the differential are easy to put back to stock and regain at least 1/3rd to 1/2 value in resale. The ED price will more than make up for anything else.

About HP, I'll concede another point, the thread here:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107526

The guy has 371 hub HP at 94% settings on Procede 2.02, but he does have catless downpipes from ultimate racing. So add another $650 to the base price, but since we are now splitting hairs I want to compute the difference in sales, property, gas guzzler, and/or registration taxes. Also, add the differences in gas and insurance over some period of time and miles OH, and I overestimated the Procede now that the price has been lowered by about $300.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

DCT may or may not be better than the ZF Step. I hope it is.

You are simply hilarious, and sad.

[lyndon_h]

I cant believe we are still comparing stock cars to aftermarketc cars. This thread should have diead along time ago.