M Boss Kay Segler interviewed about M future

[Serious]

Originally Posted by wrh3

I'm not sure to who the "you guys" is here(I was referring to current BMW M buyers as a group, no individual or subgroup specifically), but I don't think it is most on this forum. I don't own, or plan to own, any of the suffix Ms and do own a Z4M. The Z4M would not have been a sales failure if BMW didn't get greedy and ramp up production to meet demand that wasn't there, this is a niche car and when they accurately judged the demand in '06 and those cars sold, they should have left production as is- most of the buyers that wanted this car picked it up the first year. After having a firesale on the leftover '07s, production was dialed back down for the '08s but there were still surplus '07s.



This is a car I would consider buying. A significantly lighter car than what is currently available in the BMW lineup with a properly engineered motor......unlike the problematic N54 that was boosted slightly to put in the 1M. The issue with the 1M is that it is not that much lighter and has the N54. No doubt the chassis will be great since it uses M3 components, time will tell if the N54 bugs have been worked out- speaking from N54 experience it is not a motor I would want to run on the track.

"The M brand's most popular model remained the M3 with 5,729 units of the coupe, 2,544 units of the Convertible and 1,843 Saloons. Worldwide sales of the newly introduced all-wheel drive X5 M and X6 M totaled 2,778 and 3,082 respectively."

These are the just released last years M car worldwide sales numbers and after examining these numbers tell me would BMW change from their current design approach? The premier BMW sports sedan is only out selling the fat stupid AWD slushbox jacked up $100,000 minivans by ~1500 units annually. [7573 vs. 5860] (convertible m3 sales were excluded because it's performance is so far behind the coupe/sedan)

The numbers show it all too well sports cars DON'T sell... (unless they have a porsche badge on them, and even then 911 sales are often beaten by cayenne sales.)

People on internet forums are often heard complaining about weight increases/lack of driver involvement/stupid gadgets & gizmos... Yet real talk is done with your wallets not your keyboards. We can see from the numbers (it's not just BMW's numbers either this is industry wide phenomenon) large heavy gizmo laden luxury sedans & SUV with a billion HP is what the customer actually buys.

I really hope this changes, which is one reason I have been such an adamant defender of the 1M, because it shows BMW that it's customers do have a real interest in a smaller lighter more driver focused car... but lets be honest here it's probably going to flop like every other LTW BMW sports car of the past, and the next m3 with 490hp/Turbos/DCT only/3900lbs will be a massive sales success.

[wrh3]

Originally Posted by Serious

"The M brand's most popular model remained the M3 with 5,729 units of the coupe, 2,544 units of the Convertible and 1,843 Saloons. Worldwide sales of the newly introduced all-wheel drive X5 M and X6 M totaled 2,778 and 3,082 respectively."


The numbers show it all too well sports cars DON'T sell... (unless they have a porsche badge on them, and even then 911 sales are often beaten by cayenne sales.)

Unfortunately you're correct with today's demographic, I did see the BMW sales report and the Porsche sales numbers. I wonder if this trend will continue when gas costs double.

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

good responses from him. However, "its an uphill battle and its not so easy" is not an optimistic one.

After a long and complicated analysis of his answers, I conclude he ment "Yes"

Q: Will BMW be returning to F1 racing with the return of turbochargers to Formula 1?
A: We are simply focusing on M cars and touring cars (24 hour races, DTM) - to have a car on the race course which a customer can also drive on the road.

...and this one is a NO.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Levi

One thing is interesting: M is going to get high reving turbo engines.

Higher revving turbo in current BMW parlance means 7000 RPM. So yes, all gasoline BMW's will have "high revving turbos". Diesel BMW's will still have low revving turbos. See?

Can't wait for the next M3 F3X with its TT I6 and redline at 8.500 rpm...

The chance of that happening is absolutely zero.

[jeff@autocouture]

He says the future of m will be high revving turbo engines, the current 1m is not the future, it's te present, let's see what m can pull out for the next m3 and 1m, I'm all for a lightweight 4cyl highrevving turbo m car and as new cars come Out they prove to be better and better. People want the m to be more like the gt3, it's not and never will be.... Buy a gt3 if that's what you want.
I still have faith.... For now. If the next m is more expensive, and less of a car Which I doubt, I will be drivIng a Porsche as my next "sports car"

[IFX]

Originally Posted by lasovan

M5 coming with ceramic brakes option!?

I have yet to see any evidence of how "great" carbon ceramics are..

[wrh3]

Originally Posted by IFX

I have yet to see any evidence of how "great" carbon ceramics are..

A lot of GT3 buyers are opting out due to consumables cost.

[SCOTT26]

When you consider that out of BMW sales in the USA , 95% are either Auto or DCT with the remaining 5% opting for a manual transmission.
Especially today that is getting quite close to full automatic takeover , although BMW will keep the manual until the very end. Just dont expect to see it in "certain" models.

As for the Touring models.
Let me tell you about the situation of the Touring in the North American market.
And let me say this does not just apply to BMW because it is a trend with luxury imports and BMW’s competitors.

If there is a relevant SAV/SUV in the same segment as the relative Touring/Wagon then the customer is more likely to choose the SAV/SUV rather than the Touring/Wagon. As the customer sees the SAV/SUV as the more versatile option and especially with Winters as seen currently on the east coast of the US – AWD.
In the case of BMW – The 5er Touring (E61′s) loss was the X5′s gain.
Which now has the 5er GT as an additional choice with it’s mix of each of these concepts that offers a more versatile appeal to the customer, especially the ones who do not want an SAV/SUV.

Currently in the US since the X3 went on sale at the end of the year , X3 is outselling the 3er Touring again for the same reasons.
The 3er Touring will be pulled from the US market later this year.

BMW are not the only european manufacturers who are experiencing this trend in the US. Mercedes-Benz having recently introduced their E-Klasse T-modell have a slight advantage because of the dated ML-Klasse, expect a different story when the new ML-Klasse comes on line later this year. Already the C-Klasse is not imported into the US.
Audi again , have the Q5 which is outselling the A4 Avant. And then there is Volvo who pulled their wagons on the count of the XC models that were outselling them which led to Volvo not offering the V60 in the US Market.

It is not a case of the manufacturer not trying , It’s just the US customer prefers the SAV/SUV rather than the Wagon. It is a different story in the European market , especially BMW’s largest Touring market which is Germany with the segments two big leaders the 320d and 520d Touring. Not only are these models highly popular with normal customers but BMW sell large amounts of these models as fleets such as Polizei , Fire and Emergency , Government and several categories of business from telecommunications , IT and energy suppliers amongst some companies that operate the 320d Touring and 520d Touring as a fleet vehicle.

In regards to the 1er , BMW cannot offer the 1er in the same level of pricing as the Golf , they are different categories of car. The 1er is Premium and unfortunately no one will pay premium for a Hatch , amongst what else is available. And besides the Golf is outsold by the Jetta , mimicing the same response as the Touring - If there is a relevant variant that is more to the customers requirements then they will choose that model.

Why not a 1er Sedan? It is too close to the 3er especially in Europe where BMW have huge fleet sales of the 3er and 3er Touring which are used by the Polizei, Emergency Doctors , Ambulance , Fire and other Government works as well as industry. If the 1er was in the way of the 3er then these sales will divert and lead to increased fleet margins by our competitors who will gain with the A4 and C-Klasse respectively due to the more spacious capability and power these models would have over the 1er.
The 3er is needed for this reason and these institutions are always consulted in the development of a 3er or 5er they are even the very first people outside of BMW to test drive prototypes.

The 3er is still having success as a fleet tool and the new BMW 5er /5er Touring has recently been added to these fleets and proving to be the sectors leaders in the Premium entry and Mid Premium segment for fleet vehicles in Europe.

[330CIZHP]

Your interpretation is incorrect.

The clown is calling 7000 rpm "high-revving". Don't expect to be any higher than that.

All of the new 1-M, F10 M5, X5 M and X6 M all have 7000 rpm redlines and turbo engines. That is the biggest joke of the century.

Originally Posted by Studntloan

He says the future of m will be high revving turbo engines, the current 1m is not the future, it's te present, let's see what m can pull out for the next m3 and 1m, I'm all for a lightweight 4cyl highrevving turbo m car and as new cars come Out they prove to be better and better. People want the m to be more like the gt3, it's not and never will be.... Buy a gt3 if that's what you want.
I still have faith.... For now. If the next m is more expensive, and less of a car Which I doubt, I will be drivIng a Porsche as my next "sports car"

[IFX]

Originally Posted by wrh3

A lot of GT3 buyers are opting out due to consumables cost.

Longevity wise they are awesome. But from what I've been reading, there not even "that" good for the track. And for the price of them, there are no excuses.
It should be track ready and be able to take a beating.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Your interpretation is incorrect.

The clown is calling 7000 rpm "high-revving". Don't expect to be any higher than that.

All of the new 1-M, F10 M5, X5 M and X6 M all have 7000 rpm redlines and turbo engines. That is the biggest joke of the century.

You know that only 3 M engines in history have ever had redlines of over 7800rpm and most redline ~7k right?

I guess the M1, e30 m3, e28 m5, e24 m6, e34 m5, mclaren f1, all e36 m3s, all z3Ms, and e39 m5s had jokes for engines as well.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by Serious

You know that only 3 M engines in history have ever had redlines of over 7800rpm and most redline ~7k right?

I guess the M1, e30 m3, e28 m5, e24 m6, e34 m5, mclaren f1, all e36 m3s, all z3Ms, and e39 m5s had jokes for engines as well.

To be fair, one should also take into account the manufactoring difficulties/costs of old times. I believe OP was talking about modern engines.

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by Serious

[U]and the next m3 with 490hp/Turbos/DCT only/3900lbs will be a massive sales success.

Cant wait to get my hands on one

[aus]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

When you consider that out of BMW sales in the USA , 95% are either Auto or DCT with the remaining 5% opting for a manual transmission.
Especially today that is getting quite close to full automatic takeover , although BMW will keep the manual until the very end. Just dont expect to see it in "certain" models.

As for the Touring models.
Let me tell you about the situation of the Touring in the North American market.
And let me say this does not just apply to BMW because it is a trend with luxury imports and BMW’s competitors.

If there is a relevant SAV/SUV in the same segment as the relative Touring/Wagon then the customer is more likely to choose the SAV/SUV rather than the Touring/Wagon. As the customer sees the SAV/SUV as the more versatile option and especially with Winters as seen currently on the east coast of the US – AWD.
In the case of BMW – The 5er Touring (E61′s) loss was the X5′s gain.
Which now has the 5er GT as an additional choice with it’s mix of each of these concepts that offers a more versatile appeal to the customer, especially the ones who do not want an SAV/SUV.

Currently in the US since the X3 went on sale at the end of the year , X3 is outselling the 3er Touring again for the same reasons.
The 3er Touring will be pulled from the US market later this year.

BMW are not the only european manufacturers who are experiencing this trend in the US. Mercedes-Benz having recently introduced their E-Klasse T-modell have a slight advantage because of the dated ML-Klasse, expect a different story when the new ML-Klasse comes on line later this year. Already the C-Klasse is not imported into the US.
Audi again , have the Q5 which is outselling the A4 Avant. And then there is Volvo who pulled their wagons on the count of the XC models that were outselling them which led to Volvo not offering the V60 in the US Market.

It is not a case of the manufacturer not trying , It’s just the US customer prefers the SAV/SUV rather than the Wagon. It is a different story in the European market , especially BMW’s largest Touring market which is Germany with the segments two big leaders the 320d and 520d Touring. Not only are these models highly popular with normal customers but BMW sell large amounts of these models as fleets such as Polizei , Fire and Emergency , Government and several categories of business from telecommunications , IT and energy suppliers amongst some companies that operate the 320d Touring and 520d Touring as a fleet vehicle.

In regards to the 1er , BMW cannot offer the 1er in the same level of pricing as the Golf , they are different categories of car. The 1er is Premium and unfortunately no one will pay premium for a Hatch , amongst what else is available. And besides the Golf is outsold by the Jetta , mimicing the same response as the Touring - If there is a relevant variant that is more to the customers requirements then they will choose that model.

Why not a 1er Sedan? It is too close to the 3er especially in Europe where BMW have huge fleet sales of the 3er and 3er Touring which are used by the Polizei, Emergency Doctors , Ambulance , Fire and other Government works as well as industry. If the 1er was in the way of the 3er then these sales will divert and lead to increased fleet margins by our competitors who will gain with the A4 and C-Klasse respectively due to the more spacious capability and power these models would have over the 1er.
The 3er is needed for this reason and these institutions are always consulted in the development of a 3er or 5er they are even the very first people outside of BMW to test drive prototypes.

The 3er is still having success as a fleet tool and the new BMW 5er /5er Touring has recently been added to these fleets and proving to be the sectors leaders in the Premium entry and Mid Premium segment for fleet vehicles in Europe.

Thanks for that info.
Any idea how much of a sales difference it would have made if BMW would have called the X5M/X6M a "CSi" instead of an "M"? It would have made a lot of us a little more tolerant of the changes Kay "killer of //M" Segler has been making.

.

[SCOTT26]

Dr.Segler was not at M Division when the X5M and X6M were conceived.
He arrived afterwards.

[TakeOne]

as many people on here hump the leg of the "last true M car", they're driving around in the heaviest version of an M3 to date. It shouldn't surprise anyone if it does gain weight...(but it won't)

[Robert]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

When you consider that out of BMW sales in the USA , 95% are either Auto or DCT with the remaining 5% opting for a manual transmission.
Especially today that is getting quite close to full automatic takeover , although BMW will keep the manual until the very end. Just dont expect to see it in "certain" models.

Why the hell do BMW bother to send you guys here then? Because this is the 5% manual crowd you are trying to market to. Is it because these 5% are the loudest and most influential to people's car purchase decision around them?

This is the way I see it. If BMW no longer consider these 5% purist worthwhile to engage, they will find other brands. Brands that dont exist today, who see this as an opportunity to start a business for these under served customers. BMW can sell high volume, high margin vehicle to those who want that type of cars. Purist will move on to Porsche, Lotus, or kit cars. End result is win-win for everyone.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Why not a 1er Sedan? It is too close to the 3er especially in Europe where BMW have huge fleet sales of the 3er and 3er Touring which are used by the Polizei, Emergency Doctors , Ambulance , Fire and other Government works as well as industry. If the 1er was in the way of the 3er then these sales will divert and lead to increased fleet margins by our competitors who will gain with the A4 and C-Klasse respectively due to the more spacious capability and power these models would have over the 1er.

SCOTT,

Even still, there are credible reports that Audi will have a sub A4 sedan for the US market, based off of the new Jetta platform.

To me, to ignore the premium compact sedan market in the US is a grave mistake, and I should like to think it is one BMW will correct in the coming generations. I absolutely would be a prime candidate for a 1 series sedan and/or a 1 series M sedan. I believe that there are a LOT of BMW customers in the US who would absolutely agree. I would implore you to reconsider the premium compact sedan market, especially for North America. If not, Audi will be eating your lunch here by the fistfull with their new Jetta-based A3 sedan.

Oh, and lets make sure this model gets proper RWD shall we? FWD compact MPV's, hatchlets, and other little vehicles and such are one thing, but a FWD BMW sedan will induce vomitous reactions from your loyal North American customer base.

Thank you for reading.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Serious

You know that only 3 M engines in history have ever had redlines of over 7800rpm and most redline ~7k right?

True. But one could make a very strong argument that the S54, S65, and S85 are not only the pinnacle of M engine development, they are in fact the pinnacle of production intent, sub-supercar engine development. These are truly epic engines that will be revered for generations to come.

There are others out there as well, the Toyota and Nissan I6's (don't feel like looking up the names, JZ-something, and RB-something, I thinkg), various American V8's, turbo 4s, etc. But these M engines are the type where one could wake up in the morning and fund them swapped into any car you may own (even some cars priced 100k+) and have nothing but a smile on your face.

I guess the M1, e30 m3, e28 m5, e24 m6, e34 m5, mclaren f1, all e36 m3s, all z3Ms, and e39 m5s had jokes for engines as well.

Those engines were certainly achievements for the time they were in production. You mention M3, M5, M6, Z and McLaren models. Well, the three engines I mention in my first paragraph has succeeded each one, and who would honestly want to swap back for the older engine? Oh, except the McLaren - that one now has a 8500 RPM turbo V8. Now there's an engine - even if we use, say, a smaller 3L, 475hp version for example - that would have a perfect home in an F3x m3.

[EuroCarsOnline]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Pretty sure the csl didnt run 1.4g on a skid pad. Maybe during a turn on a track.

The CSL did run 1.4g on the skid pad. The Pilot Sport Cups it came standard with had a lot to do with it. This is pretty amazing and hard to believe I'm sure. By comparison the Porsche GT pulled 1.35g. That's why I'm still upset after all these years the M3 CSL never made it to the US.

[graider]

i think everyone will have to go 4 banger turbo or even 2 banger turbo in the future.

gas price will sky rocket, so there is no other way around it. imagine you are paying double/triple for gas next year, you are not gonna be happy with your m3 gas mileage anymore.

[graider]

Originally Posted by Serious

"The M brand's most popular model remained the M3 with 5,729 units of the coupe, 2,544 units of the Convertible and 1,843 Saloons. Worldwide sales of the newly introduced all-wheel drive X5 M and X6 M totaled 2,778 and 3,082 respectively."

These are the just released last years M car worldwide sales numbers and after examining these numbers tell me would BMW change from their current design approach? The premier BMW sports sedan is only out selling the fat stupid AWD slushbox jacked up $100,000 minivans by ~1500 units annually. [7573 vs. 5860] (convertible m3 sales were excluded because it's performance is so far behind the coupe/sedan)

The numbers show it all too well sports cars DON'T sell... (unless they have a porsche badge on them, and even then 911 sales are often beaten by cayenne sales.)

People on internet forums are often heard complaining about weight increases/lack of driver involvement/stupid gadgets & gizmos... Yet real talk is done with your wallets not your keyboards. We can see from the numbers (it's not just BMW's numbers either this is industry wide phenomenon) large heavy gizmo laden luxury sedans & SUV with a billion HP is what the customer actually buys.

I really hope this changes, which is one reason I have been such an adamant defender of the 1M, because it shows BMW that it's customers do have a real interest in a smaller lighter more driver focused car... but lets be honest here it's probably going to flop like every other LTW BMW sports car of the past, and the next m3 with 490hp/Turbos/DCT only/3900lbs will be a massive sales success.

i agree. many people want high rev, light weight aka gt3, but the fact is this will not equate to higher sale/profit for bmw. i think they may even loose money doing this.