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      09-26-2017, 08:09 AM   #1365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brix25 View Post
That's nice to hear. I thought they were going to stop with the F80 because it doesn't sell as much as the M4.
They sell every last one they manage to produce.

It is not clear whether production is purposely capped at a volume significantly below the M4 coupe, or whether they simply do not have the capacity at the Regensburg plant (M4 is build in Munich, recall) to handle more units of the M3 than they produce today.

In an ideal world, you would see the M3 built along side the 3 Series the same way the M4 coupe is built along side the 4 Series coupe (and the convertibles for that matter, both of which are built in Regensburg). Perhaps this will happen for the G80, and if so, perhaps this will allow for higher volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
...BMW seems to openly claim that it aims to become the number one premium luxury brand (currently they are obviously behind Mercedes).
Right, and as you are no doubt aware, the growth in the luxury market is in SUVs, particularly small to medium SUVs - segments where BMW is putting a great deal of energy at the moment.

BMW is not nearly the size of Mercedes and VAG, so they cannot chase after each and every niche. Furthermore, the future is electrified drivetrains, and these will play a big role next decade. The V12, as you note, will only dwindle in numbers.

BMW's new high end lineup, once the 8 Series and X7 are counted, will give them a greater presence than ever at the top end of the market. Will they have the right mix to ever catch Mercedes again? Remains to be seen, but I think they've done the homework, and the models we know are coming are the ones people want.

In my mind, if there is a point of uncertainty surrounding BMW's future, it is not V12s or $150k sport coupes. It is the i brand as compared to Mercedes EQ brand and other players in the ACES/CASE(/whatever acronym du jour) market. That's were we need to see better products (SUVs!) and a more unified message.
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      09-29-2017, 04:35 PM   #1366
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I called BMW NA today and asked if a diesel X3 (2018 G01) is coming to the U.S.; the rep told me "I don't see it in my computer, so probably not."

I sent BMW NA the same question via a Facebook message, and the answer was "I can confirm it is planned, but I can't comment on when." I tried to find out if it was later this year or next year, but no dice.

Does anyone have any inside information? If it's not until 2019, I'll buy a gasser. If it's mid-2018, I might be able to convince the wife to wait...
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      09-30-2017, 12:16 AM   #1367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispitude View Post
I called BMW NA today and asked if a diesel X3 (2018 G01) is coming to the U.S.; the rep told me "I don't see it in my computer, so probably not."

I sent BMW NA the same question via a Facebook message, and the answer was "I can confirm it is planned, but I can't comment on when." I tried to find out if it was later this year or next year, but no dice.

Does anyone have any inside information? If it's not until 2019, I'll buy a gasser. If it's mid-2018, I might be able to convince the wife to wait...
Right now the plan is to introduce it in 2018. But considering how much headwind diesels are experiencing these days, what will actually happen is really anybody's guess.
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      09-30-2017, 12:26 AM   #1368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
They sell every last one they manage to produce.

It is not clear whether production is purposely capped at a volume significantly below the M4 coupe, or whether they simply do not have the capacity at the Regensburg plant (M4 is build in Munich, recall) to handle more units of the M3 than they produce today.

In an ideal world, you would see the M3 built along side the 3 Series the same way the M4 coupe is built along side the 4 Series coupe (and the convertibles for that matter, both of which are built in Regensburg). Perhaps this will happen for the G80, and if so, perhaps this will allow for higher volume.



Right, and as you are no doubt aware, the growth in the luxury market is in SUVs, particularly small to medium SUVs - segments where BMW is putting a great deal of energy at the moment.

BMW is not nearly the size of Mercedes and VAG, so they cannot chase after each and every niche. Furthermore, the future is electrified drivetrains, and these will play a big role next decade. The V12, as you note, will only dwindle in numbers.

BMW's new high end lineup, once the 8 Series and X7 are counted, will give them a greater presence than ever at the top end of the market. Will they have the right mix to ever catch Mercedes again? Remains to be seen, but I think they've done the homework, and the models we know are coming are the ones people want.

In my mind, if there is a point of uncertainty surrounding BMW's future, it is not V12s or $150k sport coupes. It is the i brand as compared to Mercedes EQ brand and other players in the ACES/CASE(/whatever acronym du jour) market. That's were we need to see better products (SUVs!) and a more unified message.
I though you said that m3 production lags a few years after is done production. I could be wrong?
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      10-01-2017, 04:53 PM   #1369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Will follow X5 by a year. Also, it's boring, since it's the same thing as X5, just in a different body.

But i think the X6 looks better and is more aerodynamic in shape.
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      10-01-2017, 07:09 PM   #1370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piyush128k View Post
But i think the X6 looks better and is more aerodynamic in shape.
X6 has zero (0) interesting features for the purpose of this thread.

But yes, there's a reason X6 is so much more popular than X5 in places like Eastern Europe, where men prefer cars with as little utility/lb as possible.
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      10-01-2017, 07:24 PM   #1371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by piyush128k View Post
But i think the X6 looks better and is more aerodynamic in shape.
X6 has zero (0) interesting features for the purpose of this thread.

But yes, there's a reason X6 is so much more popular than X5 in places like Eastern Europe, where men prefer cars with as little utility/lb as possible.
Aren't these cars (X5/X6) made for soccer (football) mommies????
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      10-01-2017, 08:22 PM   #1372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Aren't these cars (X5/X6) made for soccer (football) mommies????
X5 - yes. X6 - for immature boys between 20 and 70 years old.
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      10-02-2017, 12:54 PM   #1373
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lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Aren't these cars (X5/X6) made for soccer (football) mommies????
lol
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      10-06-2017, 02:24 AM   #1374
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G29 is taking shape.
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      10-06-2017, 05:41 AM   #1375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
G29 is taking shape.
That’s great. It seems to me that fierce competition in the powertrain department is really forcing BMW to step up their game. Although there were some standouts (the version of the N54 in the previous E89 Z4 35is being one, in fact) the N54 and N55 were generally not iterated on nearly as aggressively as the B58 has been over the last couple years.

On the other side of the coin, one can’t help but notice VAG and Mercedes strategy to not keep their mid-range, high output engines exclusive to their mid-range, high performance products (the Audi I5 notwithstanding, I should fairly point out, though that's technically used only in entry level high performance products, not mid-range ones). This can work both ways, of course, because while there is a gain in economies of scale, there is also a loss in exclusivity. To be specific, I am referring to the RS4/RS5 TT V6 being shared with vehicles like the Cayenne S and Panamera S. Reportedly, the next S6 and S7 will also get this engine. Similarly, Mercedes has taken their M177 AMG V8, and, in a slightly different form called the M176, dropped it into the S560 (and the G550 before that, but it is woefully detuned there for some reason). Sure, some will lament the loss of the V8 in the VAG products I mention (the same will soon happen with Mercedes too, as the M256 I6 takes over for the M176 V8 - it's already the case for the S Class in Europe), but it also means lower cost - in theory at least. And while BMW is holding tightly to the dogma of "S" motors remaining exclusive to M products, they have already hinted that it might not be the case going forward. BMW's lineup is packed with vehicles where the future S58 could take over nicely for the N63. Finally, to bring this back around to my intended endpoint - the S58 could also be used in higher end M*40i products too, like the Z4 M40i. You just use the lowest tune in those products (~400hp), the mid range tune for the 5/6 range of *50i vehicles (~450hp), and the highest state of tune for the true M vehicles in 3/4 range (500hp+). The B58 would stick around for standard 40i products in the 5/6/7/8 range with 350hp. It would also remain in the 2 Series CLAR M*40i products with that same output.

Regarding the release date, I still think next year is going to be insane with all the new products arriving. Usually an automaker tries to space things out and give each new vehicle its own time to shine in the limelight, but with so much coming in 2018, it seems there will have to be some products sharing public debut timeframes, perhaps even with co-announcements. If they were going to combine any of them, the X4 and X5 would seem to make a good pairing. Or perhaps the 8, X7, and i8 Roadster could come together to usher in the new "Ultra Premium" lineup they've been hyping up with all the talk of the black-and-white BMW roundel and so on.
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      10-06-2017, 07:34 AM   #1376
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ynguldyn, on a different topic, I read recently (forgot where) a report that the the X3 PHEV (30e) may have been shelved in favor on the X3 electric (iPerformance i30o, or whatever the heck they are gonna call it). I wonder if this claim has any merit.
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      10-06-2017, 07:46 AM   #1377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Right now the plan is to introduce it in 2018. But considering how much headwind diesels are experiencing these days, what will actually happen is really anybody's guess.
And to be frank, diesel product releases at this point seem like the wrong place to put money. If you look at what's coming to market over the next ten years, to me, I feel like you spend money getting a PHEV entry into every vehicle lineup in the range before you even think about spending a dime on bringing another diesel product to the US market. Don't get me wrong, I like a diesel as much as the next guy, but it seems like a big risk to put the time and money into it right now.
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      10-06-2017, 12:43 PM   #1378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Finally, to bring this back around to my intended endpoint - the S58 could also be used in higher end M*40i products too, like the Z4 M40i. You just use the lowest tune in those products (~400hp), the mid range tune for the 5/6 range of *50i vehicles (~450hp), and the highest state of tune for the true M vehicles in 3/4 range (500hp+). The B58 would stick around for standard 40i products in the 5/6/7/8 range with 350hp. It would also remain in the 2 Series CLAR M*40i products with that same output.
I can't think of a single instance where M shared their engines with regular BMWs. I don't see why this would change now.
Quote:
Regarding the release date, I still think next year is going to be insane with all the new products arriving. Usually an automaker tries to space things out and give each new vehicle its own time to shine in the limelight, but with so much coming in 2018, it seems as there will have to be some products sharing public debut timeframes, perhaps even with co-announcements. If they were going to combine any of them, the X4 and X5 would seem to make a good pairing. Or perhaps the 8, X7, and i8 Roadster could come together to usher in the new "Ultra Premium" lineup they've been hyping up with all the talk of the black-and-white BMW roundel and so on.
Yes, next year will indeed be insane. But I think it will be grouped in more logical ways. Spring will bring i8 LCI and i8 Roadster, M2 Comp right after or right before that, and new X4. In the summer we'll see 8 series coupe and convertible, Z4, then X5 and X7 together.

Also, don't forget about the expansion of X2 and X3 model ranges. Considering its future influence, I will be most interested in X2 M35i.
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      10-06-2017, 01:32 PM   #1379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
I can't think of a single instance where M shared their engines with regular BMWs. I don't see why this would change now.
Right, although the 1M and M2 have done it the other way around - borrowed a non-M engine for an M car. Edit: Z8, technically, although it was in some ways an M vehicle by a different name. BMW has suggested this could occur more in the future too. Maybe not an "S" engine in a series BMW, but on the other hand, maybe a future would-be "S" engine isn't called an "S" engine at all anymore. Then you plug it in wherever you want. Or it simply goes by both an S and B name, depending on application.

My point is that BMW could do it this way and it would seem to be better than having the overlap or near-overlap with the high-ouput B58 and low-output S58 (coming to the M2 "CS"), and the same thing with the S58 and the N63. Sure, this same type of overlap has always been there. But with turbocharged engines, there is better opportunity for reuse across different products. In the past, you didn't want to put an S54 or S65 in a 5 Series, 7 series, or SUV. But now, as the competition has shown, you can use the same engine in both a high performance application and a large luxury vehicle.

Quote:
Yes, next year will indeed be insane. But I think it will be grouped in more logical ways. Spring will bring i8 LCI and i8 Roadster, M2 Comp right after or right before that, and new X4. In the summer we'll see 8 series coupe and convertible, Z4, then X5 and X7 together.
That makes some sense too, although I would think they want to give that X7 either lots of space, or bring it with the 8 Series. Again, just to emphasize the additions to the premium range. We'll see though.

Quote:
Also, don't forget about the expansion of X2 and X3 model ranges. Considering its future influence, I will be most interested in X2 M35i.
Yep. Hopefully the X1 gets that engine also. I guess maybe they would prefer it to be an X2 exclusive initially though, to get sales rolling on the brand new model.
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      10-06-2017, 04:20 PM   #1380
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The Z8 has the same S62 as the E39 M5?
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      10-06-2017, 06:53 PM   #1381
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Quote:
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The Z8 has the same S62 as the E39 M5?
Yes, the 2000-2002 models did have the S62 from the E39 M5. For the 2003 Alpina Z8 a lower output (than S62) modified M62 was used.
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      10-07-2017, 08:47 AM   #1382
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Are we actually sure that the M Performance versions of future UKL-based models will be designated as M35i?

There has been a heavy tendency at BMW to round off its engine designations in the upwards direction (28 to 30, 35 to 40, 45 to 50...), obviously in order to follow the gradual output increase, but also I assume because round numbers make a more solid visual and mental impact and are just easier to remember and therefore are preferrable from a marketing standpoint.

If we look at current models which will eventually all become UKL-based (1 Series, X1...), their highest non-M Performance version is designated 25i and rated at around 230ps. For instance there is no more 130i as the next step above 125i is directly the M140i.

Since there seemingly won't be any more UKL-based models designated 30i, isn't it possible that the M Performance versions will take that blank spot and be labeled M30i instead of M35i? Of course, if we assume it won't be M40i in order to not mess up with the 6 cylinder non-UKL based growing M Performance lineup (X3 and X4 M40i, future M340i and M440i...), which I think is quite an easy assumption. Not that M35i absolutely has to be zeroed off to M30i in order to be consistent with the other M Performance designations (M40*, M50*, M60*...), but it doesn't seem totally impossible either, since there will be at least half a numerical step backwards anyway (current non-UKL M140i ---> future UKL M135i) already violating the above mentioned custom according to which same level designations aren't supposed to be moving downwards (though they can justify this with the move from 6 to 4 cylinders).

However BMW seems to want to keep a numerical difference of 10 between the M Performance version and the strongest non-M Performance version (330i ---> M340i, 540d ---> M550d...), so if the strongest regular versions of the UKL-based models are deemed to peak at 25i then the case is quite strong that the M Performance versions will likely have to be designated M35i in the end by lack of a better option.

Last edited by advantage20; 10-07-2017 at 10:51 AM..
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      10-07-2017, 09:58 AM   #1383
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Are we actually sure that the M Performance versions of future UKL-based models will be designated as M35i?
We are as sure as we are about any of the other model names, I’d say. It is all from the same sources, as far as I know. I’ll let ynguldyn have the final call of course, but both he and SCOTT have used the M*35i name to refer to the vehicles coming to the UKL M Performance range.

Quote:
If we look at current models which will eventually all become UKL-based (1 Series, X1...), their highest non-M Performance version is designated 25i and rated at around 230ps. For instance there is no more 130i as the next step above 125i is directly the M140.

Since there seemingly won't be any more UKL-based models designated 30i, isn't it possible that the M Performance versions will take that blank spot and be labeled M30i instead of M35i?
Two important points you didn’t mention here.

- The 25i UKL models are and will continue to be called 28i in the US. So the M30i designation would not really work because it would not create the necessary separation between the two models from a marketing standpoint.

- Former N54 and N55 powered models with ~300hp were designated *35i. So M35i fits in nicely in that we expect about that much power from the new high output B48.

The part that doesn’t make sense to me is the current discrepancy in naming between North America and ROW. They should just pick 25i or 28i and use it everywhere. I suspect the reasoning behind 28i being used for the X1 in the US was that they didn’t want the F48 to seem like a step back from even the lowest end E84 on our shores which was the 28i. In the rest of the world, I believe there were other E84 X1 models - 20i and 25i, IIRC - that the F48 could more naturally be slotted in against as a successor. We didn’t get those here so the new one needed to be tweaked in name to succeed the E84 28i. Just my thoughts.
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      10-08-2017, 08:10 PM   #1384
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Any info for the 1 series at all? F21? Thanks
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      10-10-2017, 03:15 PM   #1385
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Does anyone know when the G05 will be revealed?
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      10-19-2017, 05:35 AM   #1386
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Any news on the new 4 series GC? I presume it will be around summer 2020 as the EOP for current F36 is around then?
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