2008 BMW M3 beats a Carrera S on the Nurburgring

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by K3N R3D

So what is the offcial time for the (997) 911S since we know the official time for the M3?

8:05

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Sure ring times don't mean all that much on the street, especially with either of us driving, right ? However, the purpose of such specs is to judge the car under race like conditions, not the driver. I think (as most enthusiasts do) that the ring lap time is a key figure in what makes one performance car "better" than another.

Sorry to say it but without a very highly skilled professional race driver in the driving seat you are not getting a true reflection of the abilities of any car, all you are getting is a slightly tainted insight in each car as a non professional may favour the driving styles of one car over another. How much of this will be present with Mr Horst at the wheel is up for debate.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Driving feedback is legendary on the 911, agreed, however it is also exactly the same - legendary - on the M3. Furthermore, this particular point is subjective enough that the who's better here may never be settled.

I agree that Porsche's steering has been legendary regardless of model, but to say the same of the M3 you are sadly looking at it through rose tinted glasses. It's not bad but this most recent model has lost much on it's feel and commented saying as much have been in numerous road test of late. I personally don't mind this myself as it easier to drive a car which is a little lacking in this department.

Originally Posted by swamp2

I still do not believe that price independent the 911 is a better car than the new M3. We have talked brakes - jury is out, one test goes to the M3, we have talked ring times and it looks like the 911S will be upset there and finally we have 0-200km/hr where the M3 wins again! How many "contests" will the M have to prove superior to the 911 (or 911S) in order for you to consider it a "better" car. Sounds to me like even if it won every imaginable contest it still would not be a better car. This strikes of fan boy to me...

Porsche brakes ARE better than any BMW.....PERIOD, no other road car can take the same abuse all day long on the track like them, unlike BMW M cars which have been commented in numerous tests for fading during track use, this again is of little concern as I am not going to track the car much.

One thing I will agree with you (swamp) is that the M3 is a better car to own. The 911 isn't as quick in acceleration, it doesn't handle any better and it really only seats 2 adults unlike the M3 which can seat 4, it's got a smaller boot than the M3 and it costs a lot more. So with regards to performance/practicality the M3 is a much better buy.

[gmund1948]

This whole article (including the Powerpoint) was from the pre release last winter/spring in Spain

A no name engineer from BMW knows better than to quote lap times
that will beat a 997, BMW is very tight lipped likely because the car has done very well at the ring, low, low 8s were the closest we could get to no comment during the drivers experience

This is regurgitated from the initial launch !

Patience is a virtue

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

8:05

Thanx G.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry to say it but without a very highly skilled professional race driver in the driving seat you are not getting a true reflection of the abilities of any car, all you are getting is a slightly tainted insight in each car as a non professional may favour the driving styles of one car over another. How much of this will be present with Mr Horst at the wheel is up for debate.



I agree that Porsche's steering has been legendary regardless of model, but to say the same of the M3 you are sadly looking at it through rose tinted glasses. It's not bad but this most recent model has lost much on it's feel and commented saying as much have been in numerous road test of late. I personally don't mind this myself as it easier to drive a car which is a little lacking in this department.



Porsche brakes ARE better than any BMW.....PERIOD, no other road car can take the same abuse all day long on the track like them, unlike BMW M cars which have been commented in numerous tests for fading during track use, this again is of little concern as I am not going to track the car much.

One thing I will agree with you (swamp) is that the M3 is a better car to own. The 911 isn't as quick in acceleration, it doesn't handle any better and it really only seats 2 adults unlike the M3 which can seat 4, it's got a smaller boot than the M3 and it costs a lot more. So with regards to performance/practicality the M3 is a much better buy.

You can continue to poo poo N'Ring times as much as you like. A vast majority of enthusiasts, journalists and even the OEMs themselves disagree with you. Uhhhh, me too.

In talking about the legendary nature of the steering, feel and handling of the M3 I was talking about E30, E36 and E46 as well. I can not deny the bad press thus far on the E92's steering, but I will also be quick to say there has been much good said about it as well. I for one think the jury is out and for two I tend to discount subjective "metrics" such as "feel".

On brakes, you have resorted to enormous absolutes that are plain false.

"Porsche brakes ARE better than any BMW.....PERIOD"

My counter examples to this drivel is unbelievably easy:
-E46 M3 CSL brakes are better than brakes on many Porsches
-E92 M3 brakes are very likely better than low end 996 brakes

I do not doubt that Porsche brakes, when you get the "nice" ones or better (definitely not all cars have these - seems there are 3 basic levels; "low", "nice" and "high"=PCCB), very likely have better fade performance than the system on the E92 M3. Here again on the new M3s brakes the jury is clearly out - some reports have mentioned fade but others not. Other than fade the car has shown phenomenal stopping distances which indicate tires, chassis, suspension and brakes all working together in concert very effectively stopping a fairly heavy car.

That is why I chose the words "very likely" above.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

(definitely not all cars have these - seems there are 3 basic levels; "low", "nice" and "high"=PCCB

And they're color coded:
low=black, nice=red, high=yellow. But what's the exact difference between low and nice? More pistons, bigger disc size?

Best regards, south

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

You can continue to poo poo N'Ring times as much as you like. A vast majority of enthusiasts, journalists and even the OEMs themselves disagree with you. Uhhhh, me too.

I am only highlighting that less than professional racing drivers can not get the best from the car, that is why 5th Gear use Tiff and Plato and TopGear use the Stig. I think if any manufacturer said what I am saying it would look like they were unhappy with the results from Sportauto and that would be marketing suicide, like in most court cases it's best to not comment.

Originally Posted by swamp2

In talking about the legendary nature of the steering, feel and handling of the M3 I was talking about E30, E36 and E46 as well. I can not deny the bad press thus far on the E92's steering, but I will also be quick to say there has been much good said about it as well. I for one think the jury is out and for two I tend to discount subjective "metrics" such as "feel".

I agree that the E92s steering isn't the best but that makes it a best everyday car in my opinion and it's one of the reasons why I don't have a Porsche. As for the others, I have sampled all three mentioned and the only one which steering I would have classed the equal to a Porsche would have been the E30 M3, as for the rest yes they are good but not in the class of either a Cayman, Boxster or 997. On a brighter note, all M cars are at least better in steering feel than a Cayenne,

Originally Posted by swamp2

On brakes, you have resorted to enormous absolutes that are plain false.



My counter examples to this drivel is unbelievably easy:
-E46 M3 CSL brakes are better than brakes on many Porsches
-E92 M3 brakes are very likely better than low end 996 brakes

I think you are mistaking braking distance with durability. Continued braking is what makes for great brakes and in this only the CSL is capable and it's only capable because BMW lightened the car.

Originally Posted by swamp2

I do not doubt that Porsche brakes, when you get the "nice" ones or better (definitely not all cars have these - seems there are 3 basic levels; "low", "nice" and "high"=PCCB), very likely have better fade performance than the system on the E92 M3. Here again on the new M3s brakes the jury is clearly out - some reports have mentioned fade but others not. Other than fade the car has shown phenomenal stopping distances which indicate tires, chassis, suspension and brakes all working together in concert very effectively stopping a fairly heavy car.

That is why I chose the words "very likely" above.

I have driven all Porsches on trackdays, ones organised by Porsche and just normal trackdays and I can tell you that three groups of 6 people got to 6 cars and those cars were continuously being used with the only break being the change of driver for 60 minutes flat on a tight and demanding track on not only tyres but brakes as well and never once did the brakes give up. The only thing I noticed on my third drive was a lengthening of the brake pedal and all of this was on the 'normal' brakes. One thing brakes need to be is bigger with weight and in my opinion the M3's brakes aren't big enough for such a workout.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

On a brighter note, all M cars are at least better in steering feel than a Cayenne,



I think you are mistaking braking distance with durability. Continued braking is what makes for great brakes and in this only the CSL is capable and it's only capable because BMW lightened the car.

...

I have driven all Porsches on trackdays, ones organised by Porsche and just normal trackdays and I can tell you that three groups of 6 people got to 6 cars and those cars were continuously being used with the only break being the change of driver for 60 minutes flat on a tight and demanding track on not only tyres but brakes as well and never once did the brakes give up. The only thing I noticed on my third drive was a lengthening of the brake pedal and all of this was on the 'normal' brakes. One thing brakes need to be is bigger with weight and in my opinion the M3's brakes aren't big enough for such a workout.

You just continue to get it wrong...

I won't argue brake "feel" with you until I have driven both a 997S and the E92 M3. However isn't the comparison getting just a bit silly with the Cayenne?

There are two reasons the CSL brakes wonderfully, 1 is lower weight and 2, BMW put some nice upgraded brakes on the car as well.

What I think you are getting confused on is what is important with brakes, I have said it a thousand times but I will repeat it again for your benefit. For short stopping distances and fade free brake performance you need:
-large rotor diameter (for brake torque)
-floating rotors (for warp prevention)
-enough rotor mass (for thermal absorption)
-proper brake cooling (for warp prevention)
-good pad compound (to balance wear, cold stop feel, hot stop performance and fade)
(note 1: neither multi-piston calipers nor a bright colored caliper is present on this list)
(note 2: I used to design, test and engineer disc brake systems in a past life and I designed and helped bring to market the first hollow ceramic caliper piston used on a mountain bike)

Brake sizes As expected the E92 M3's brakes ARE larger than those on the 997S.

Sizes:
997S Front Rear (dia x width) (inches)
13.0 x 1.34 12.0 x 1.10
E92 M3
14.2 x 1.18 13.8 x .94

In the front you find a substantially larger and yet thinner disc that actually despite its thickness also packs more volume and weight thus providing more thermal sink. However, despite being larger their volume per vehicle mass is not as great at the 997S. But you probably already knew that, right?

Of all the things potentially missing from the M3's brake "equation" a bit of brake radius may be one and the other is a slightly more aggressive pad.

The excellent brake performance you noticed on your Porsche track days also does not suprise me. Given the typical Porsche client can't drive fast on a track to save his/her life

[footie]

swamp,

I have driven both the E92 M3 and 997 Carrera S, unlike you.

So in a way I am more qualified to make a comment of both cars don't you think. As for brake 'feel', sorry but I thought we were talking about steering feel, has this changed or are you moving the goal posts.

But that's talk about brake feel, I have been like enough sample ceramic brakes and will there is no question of their power and durability they don't offer the same feel as normal discs. I personally don't notice that much on a difference between all cars with good brakes, the pads seems to make more of a difference that anything else. Is Porsche better on this front than BMW is don't know as I don't class myself qualified to make a comment on such a thing, all I know is that Porsche brakes stand up to more abuse than almost all other brands and that includes BMW.

Personally I would prefer brakes that always work and never fade but offer little feel than brakes which are great for feel but let you down at the moment you need them most.

Would you not concur.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

swamp,

I have driven both the E92 M3 and 997 Carrera S, unlike you.

So in a way I am more qualified to make a comment of both cars don't you think. As for brake 'feel', sorry but I thought we were talking about steering feel, has this changed or are you moving the goal posts.

But that's talk about brake feel, I have been like enough sample ceramic brakes and will there is no question of their power and durability they don't offer the same feel as normal discs. I personally don't notice that much on a difference between all cars with good brakes, the pads seems to make more of a difference that anything else. Is Porsche better on this front than BMW is don't know as I don't class myself qualified to make a comment on such a thing, all I know is that Porsche brakes stand up to more abuse than almost all other brands and that includes BMW.

Personally I would prefer brakes that always work and never fade but offer little feel than brakes which are great for feel but let you down at the moment you need them most.

Would you not concur.

I don't really care what you have driven, arguing about "feel" be it brake feel or steering feel is subjective and about as useful as arguing about a cars aesthetics. On the other hand stopping distance - now that is important.

You may be more qualified than me to talk about your "feel" of the E92 M3 and 997S but you certainly are not more able to get your facts and technical details right. That is why I keep correcting you.

If you would just not make such blanket statements you could get me to agree with you. In general mid and upper range Porsche brakes are likely more durable and fade free than most BMW brakes. Again this makes no reference to stopping distances or feel.