Oil Analysis Back. It's Terrible

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by M_Three

Well.. I am not sure if that is correct.. Case in point. I recently had an alternator go bad. Left me on the side or 95 at 2am. Ended up being a $1700 repair. the warrantee cost me $3900. Still has 3 years on it to go. I think I will be way ahead in the end.

Exactly. On a "regular" car, that alternator would've been a couple hundred bucks to replace. People on this forum like to preach about how bullet proof this platform is other than rod bearings and throttle actuators. That may be the case for some, especially those with low mileage, but it's certainly not a universal truth. The reality is that it's still a German sports car and when (not if) basic things break they cost quite a bit to fix. Let alone when more advanced parts/sensors that are specific to the M3 decide to go. A warranty is a very wise investment for an aging used M3 based on my experience. But by all means, let's keep pretending these cars are as reliable as a Camry and everything can be fixed at Big Mo's Auto Repair on the cheap.

[zipper228]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

Exactly. On a "regular" car, that alternator would've been a couple hundred bucks to replace. People on this forum like to preach about how bullet proof this platform is other than rod bearings and throttle actuators. That may be the case for some, especially those with low mileage, but it's certainly not a universal truth. The reality is that it's still a German sports car and when (not if) basic things break they cost quite a bit to fix. Let alone when more advanced parts/sensors that are specific to the M3 decide to go. A warranty is a very wise investment for an aging used M3 based on my experience. But by all means, let's keep pretending these cars are as reliable as a Camry and everything can be fixed at Big Mo's Auto Repair on the cheap.

Keep in mind though, anyone coming out ahead at the end of the warranty period is the exception. They are in the business of making money, and they don't do that by paying out more than they take in. For every owner that "wins" on their warranty, there are several that didn't, or these guys wouldn't be in business

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

But personally I don't believe in Blackstone . I saw several perfect Blackstone reports and after a few weeks the S65s got bearing failure .

Exactly, and that proves my seven year old standing theory that the engine's failure ( and very likely all other S65 engines ) are not due to rod bearings concurent wear. That car's bearings could *not* have worn over the course of a few weeks leading to the failure. It is almost certain that most S65 fails from vibrations induced engine wear due to a flawed engine design. When they designed the S85 V10 they cut too much metal thickness in the engine to be able to fit the very wide bore and short stroke (necessary for high revving!) V10 in a street 4D sedan. This explains why they've since completely changed course and have become a single generic engine platform car company. The S65 and S85 engines rigidity is compromised by design thanks to BMW. OP should be checking engine mounts and trans-mount and replace them instead. The bearing abnormal wear is just a parallel effect that indicates the amount of vibrations an engine has been subjected to. When the failure occurs it's not triggered by the worn bearings but by other critical parts in the engine having been exceedingly metal fatigued by vibrations (crankshaft wobbling reaches critical levels).

Changing bearings is not going to eliminate the damaging vibrations and while worn bearings do lead to eventual failure that example shows it was not the first thing that failed.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

BMW would charge you $30k+ installed for a new engine but they don't have any new S65's. They're all gone

Do you have an official source or is that just some heresay ?

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

Do you have an official source or is that just some heresay ?

As of mid 2017 there were no new or reman S65 engines in North America. I have not checked lately. Just ask any dealer for any one of the S65 short block PN's.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

Exactly, and that proves my seven year old standing theory that the engine's failure ( and very likely all other S65 engines ) are not due to rod bearings concurent wear. That car's bearings could *not* have worn over the course of a few weeks leading to the failure. It is almost certain that most S65 fails from vibrations induced engine wear due to a flawed engine design. When they designed the S85 V10 they cut too much metal thickness in the engine to be able to fit the very wide bore and short stroke (necessary for high revving!) V10 in a street 4D sedan. This explains why they've since completely changed course and have become a single generic engine platform car company. The S65 and S85 engines rigidity is compromised by design thanks to BMW. OP should be checking engine mounts and trans-mount and replace them instead. The bearing abnormal wear is just a parallel effect that indicates the amount of vibrations an engine has been subjected to. When the failure occurs it's not triggered by the worn bearings but by other critical parts in the engine having been exceedingly metal fatigued by vibrations (crankshaft wobbling reaches critical levels).

Changing bearings is not going to eliminate the damaging vibrations and while worn bearings do lead to eventual failure that example shows it was not the first thing that failed.

May I ask what are you basing this on? Not sure how you can conclude BMW's engine roadmap was impacted because of a few blown S65's. Modular design is driven a combination of scalability, cost, and emissions.

Its a highly strung performance engine. Every performance car has issues. Just ask Porsche about IMS bearings...

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by zipper228

Keep in mind though, anyone coming out ahead at the end of the warranty period is the exception. They are in the business of making money, and they don't do that by paying out more than they take in. For every owner that "wins" on their warranty, there are several that didn't, or these guys wouldn't be in business

They make money on people who buy extended warranties for 4 year old Camrys, and there are plenty of people like that to ensure profits.

Sure there are some who overpay for coverage and are unlikely to come out on top but there are also plenty of others who paid $500/yr and have a good chance of coming out ahead after a couple repairs. Passing on a warranty is a good idea if there isn’t a reasonably priced option available, but to say they are never a good idea due to this car being “bulletproof” is foolish.

[65fastback]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

They make money on people who buy extended warranties for 4 year old Camrys, and there are plenty of people like that to ensure profits.

Sure there are some who overpay for coverage and are unlikely to come out on top but there are also plenty of others who paid $500/yr and have a good chance of coming out ahead after a couple repairs. Passing on a warranty is a good idea if there isn’t a reasonably priced option available, but to say they are never a good idea due to this car being “bulletproof” is foolish.

I paid $3500 for a 0 deductible 5 year 100k warranty because well... plain and simple its a BMW. My car had a couple owners before me so in my case i felt a warranty was a must... I've owned a 09 e93 and a 13 550i before this m3 and both of those cars ended up having issues also.. i owned a 09 C63 AMG with out a warranty and it ended up needing all 4 cam's & cam adjusters. A 13k repair!!!!!

thats when i decided...No more german hot rods with out a warranty!

Iam almost at a year of ownership and ended up having RB's replaced and 4 vanos solenoids under warranty, also recently my NAV screen is starting to go bad . we'll see how this plays out.

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Certainly not self defeating. Main bearings are still a threat.

I'd much rather play everything safe and replace the bearings if it meant I had a better chance of not having to worry about dealing with a warranty company over the major stress of an engine failure. IMO it's foolish and wasteful to forego a little now, and suffer a lot later. Consider also, that if warranty companies continue to see an increase on these cars failing, they will determine they're not worth covering and either skyrocket the rates, or drop them all together.

Plus if I have the option of keeping the original engine, I'd much rather do that- especially if you're ever going to be selling the car. Explaining an engine replacement to a buyer hurts resale-ability

(Disclaimer: I don't pay for warranties on my cars since I run a shop and do everything myself)

I'm not sure you understood what I asked. To summarize I asked if it was dumb to buy warranty coverage if you're going to replace bearings and throttle actuators out of pocket.

[serranot]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

I'm not sure you understood what I asked. To summarize I asked if it was dumb to buy warranty coverage if you're going to replace bearings and throttle actuators out of pocket.

Warranties are for, in my opinion, unanticipated unaffordable catastrophic failures. I can’t for the life of me think why the purchase of a warranty is inconsistent with fixing a problem you suspect. A warranty is not an investment, at least not in the sense that you are expecting to or entitled to get your money back.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

I'm not sure you understood what I asked. To summarize I asked if it was dumb to buy warranty coverage if you're going to replace bearings and throttle actuators out of pocket.

I did understand. I was explaining that it would be dumb to not pay for preventative maintenance simply to make a warranty company pay for things when you let them fail out of (what amounts to) negligence.

TA's, water pumps, gaskets, alternators, etc can be replaced under warranty as they fail. For a major item like rod bearings which have a known fix that prevents total engine failure, it would be foolish to not to perform the maintenance if you had the means- warranty or not.

As stated above... A warranty is not an investment that you should expect to get a 100% return on. Although it works out that way for many M3 owners, it's twisted thinking to forego one because you think you might not. It's like any other insurance. Nobody likes paying for it, but if you have a claim you'll be glad you have it.

[carenthuziast]

I guess my approach would be to let coverage protect the car until you coverage expires and then get the work done out of pocket.

I am currently driving a cpo 2013 e9x with almost 27k miles. This expires in 20 months.

The BMW bumper to bumper cpo would have cost $6k for two years and aftermarket bumper to bumper would be $5k for four years.

I hope you're not saying you would run out and do bearings and actuators while the car is still cpo and also get aftermarket warranty.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

I hope you're not saying you would run out and do bearings and actuators while the car is still cpo and also get aftermarket warranty.

Throttle Actuators definitely not. A failed TA will not necessitate engine replacement. And frankly I think their failure rates are sensationalized.

Rod bearings, definitely yes. Even if I had a warranty I would not want to endure the stress, frustration, unknowns, and down time of having them fail and having to replace the engine. (And you'd still be in the same boat ending up with another S65 that would need to have them upgraded anyway).

It's a $2000 service. M3 owners shouldn't balk over a $2k service that can save their original engine. I don't see why this is becoming such a discussion. To me it's a no-brainer, but then again I work with these every day and there is no doubt that RB's are a ticking time bomb in these engines. I'm a preventative maintenance advocate. Some people are not and will drive their cars till the wheels fall off before paying for any maintenance. Then there are plenty in between. To each their own.

[zipper228]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

They make money on people who buy extended warranties for 4 year old Camrys, and there are plenty of people like that to ensure profits.

I have to respectfully disagree. You're trying to argue that they would cover a class of insured that they KNOW is a money-losing proposition. These companies operate in the same manner as all insurers; on massive amounts of actuarial data. If there is a class that is not cover-able, they'd drop it or raise premiums to the point where its profitable, much in the way that a life insurer raises rates for those with a history of smoking. They are certainly making money on M3 policies as well as Camry policies.

This is how you should look at it. Its insurance, and its pretty poorly leveraged insurance if you compare it to other things like your auto or homeowners policy. In those cases you have exposure to potential catastrophic risk that you can't avoid, which you are covering with relatively low premiums. With these car warranties, you're covering non-catastrophic events with high premiums. It's a suckers bet at the end of the day; they capitalize on the fear and lack of knowledge inherent in the majority of car owners. A lot of people will pay up to have peace of mind.

[Munichm3]

Holy Smokey, this rod bearing catastrophe is scaring you guys to the point where some of you guys never redline. Enjoy the flipping car! If you’re that afraid, do the rod bearings and drive it like you stole it!

Life is too short to worry about rod bearings

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

Exactly, and that proves my seven year old standing theory that the engine's failure ( and very likely all other S65 engines ) are not due to rod bearings concurent wear. That car's bearings could *not* have worn over the course of a few weeks leading to the failure. It is almost certain that most S65 fails from vibrations induced engine wear due to a flawed engine design. When they designed the S85 V10 they cut too much metal thickness in the engine to be able to fit the very wide bore and short stroke (necessary for high revving!) V10 in a street 4D sedan. This explains why they've since completely changed course and have become a single generic engine platform car company. The S65 and S85 engines rigidity is compromised by design thanks to BMW. OP should be checking engine mounts and trans-mount and replace them instead. The bearing abnormal wear is just a parallel effect that indicates the amount of vibrations an engine has been subjected to. When the failure occurs it's not triggered by the worn bearings but by other critical parts in the engine having been exceedingly metal fatigued by vibrations (crankshaft wobbling reaches critical levels).

Changing bearings is not going to eliminate the damaging vibrations and while worn bearings do lead to eventual failure that example shows it was not the first thing that failed.

Nothing what you are saying makes any sense.

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Throttle Actuators definitely not. A failed TA will not necessitate engine replacement. And frankly I think their failure rates are sensationalized.

Rod bearings, definitely yes. Even if I had a warranty I would not want to endure the stress, frustration, unknowns, and down time of having them fail and having to replace the engine. (And you'd still be in the same boat ending up with another S65 that would need to have them upgraded anyway).

It's a $2000 service. M3 owners shouldn't balk over a $2k service that can save their original engine. I don't see why this is becoming such a discussion. To me it's a no-brainer, but then again I work with these every day and there is no doubt that RB's are a ticking time bomb in these engines. I'm a preventative maintenance advocate. Some people are not and will drive their cars till the wheels fall off before paying for any maintenance. Then there are plenty in between. To each their own.

Replacing my bearings may void my cpo warranty.

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

Again, depends on who you ask. The folks behind BE bearings have done a great deal of R&D to back their conclusions. The majority of people on this forum believe that this is indeed the root cause and the collected data seems to confirm that. There has also been anecdotal evidence that operator error is not to blame. Do some research and draw your own conclusions. The BE bearings website has a lot of background info to start you off.
https://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html

I noticed in this link that all examples given were 2008 M3s with the exception of two which were 2009. Is this due to possibly this link being an older article? Or is the issue predominately seen in early year(s)?

[tdott]

Originally Posted by M_Three

Well.. I am not sure if that is correct.. Case in point. I recently had an alternator go bad. Left me on the side or 95 at 2am. Ended up being a $1700 repair. the warrantee cost me $3900. Still has 3 years on it to go. I think I will be way ahead in the end.

@<$400 for a new Valdeo alternator with lifetime warranty if bought from FCP and a quick DIY. I'm not worried esp since they don't go often.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by zipper228

I have to respectfully disagree. You're trying to argue that they would cover a class of insured that they KNOW is a money-losing proposition. These companies operate in the same manner as all insurers; on massive amounts of actuarial data. If there is a class that is not cover-able, they'd drop it or raise premiums to the point where its profitable, much in the way that a life insurer raises rates for those with a history of smoking. They are certainly making money on M3 policies as well as Camry policies.

This is how you should look at it. Its insurance, and its pretty poorly leveraged insurance if you compare it to other things like your auto or homeowners policy. In those cases you have exposure to potential catastrophic risk that you can't avoid, which you are covering with relatively low premiums. With these car warranties, you're covering non-catastrophic events with high premiums. It's a suckers bet at the end of the day; they capitalize on the fear and lack of knowledge inherent in the majority of car owners. A lot of people will pay up to have peace of mind.

I'm saying they are less likely to lose money on a Camry than an M3. The likelihood of a Camry needing a multi-thousand dollar repair is very low compared to a BMW where just about everything that can go wrong starts at $1k. I am not advocating buying an extended warranty with a high premium, as with anything there are good and bad deals out there. Have you shopped around for a warranty or are you just going off of pre-conceived notions that they are a scam? My warranty through my CU was $2k for 4 years. If you think it's unlikely that someone would spend close to that amount on basic repairs over 4 years/50k mi on a used German sports car then I would disagree. I'd give it a 50/50 chance of coming out on top and a fairly high chance of being used at least once making the "loss" under $1k for peace of mind. If someone spends $5k+ for the same coverage, then I would agree that it's a sucker's bet.

You are saying people shouldn't bother considering a warranty because it's always a sucker's bet. I am saying it's not that simple, it depends on the car, the price, and the ability/desire to DIY repairs. Do research, look at the numbers, and make an educated decision instead of simply writing it off as a sucker's bet.

[zipper228]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

I'm saying they are less likely to lose money on a Camry than an M3. The likelihood of a Camry needing a multi-thousand dollar repair is very low compared to a BMW where just about everything that can go wrong starts at $1k. I am not advocating buying an extended warranty with a high premium, as with anything there are good and bad deals out there. Have you shopped around for a warranty or are you just going off of pre-conceived notions that they are a scam? My warranty through my CU was $2k for 4 years. If you think it's unlikely that someone would spend close to that amount on basic repairs over 4 years/50k mi on a used German sports car then I would disagree. I'd give it a 50/50 chance of coming out on top and a fairly high chance of being used at least once making the "loss" under $1k for peace of mind. If someone spends $5k+ for the same coverage, then I would agree that it's a sucker's bet.

You are saying people shouldn't bother considering a warranty because it's always a sucker's bet. I am saying it's not that simple, it depends on the car, the price, and the ability/desire to DIY repairs. Do research, look at the numbers, and make an educated decision instead of simply writing it off as a sucker's bet.

Everything I'm saying is based off my research. Have you priced Camry warranties? All things equal, premiums are significantly lower because, as you state, the anticipated repairs are lower. All I'm saying is logic should tell you that the warranty co's can't stay in business if they don't come out ahead over the life of the majority of policies. Among policy holders, you'll have a few winners and a lot of losers. If a model like an M3 requires more expensive repairs, they will price the policy for those vehicles accordingly higher or just not cover them.

[carenthuziast]

Camry warranty is lower also bc Camry drivers don't drive their cars like e9x owners drive their cars.

My credit union offered extended warranty if I financed with them but would only cover peanuts for $695 over two years