E92 M3 Handling

[beckumf]

Originally Posted by PACarGuy

It means lowered springs (10mm) all around, 359 style wheels, and more aggressive remapping of EDC.

Ohhhhh, okay okay. Ya, i definitely don’t have 359 wheels. I wish I did. Okay, so when changing the EDC on a “non-zcp” car it’s not as aggressive or noticeable as a “zcp” car, correct?

[PACarGuy]

Originally Posted by beckumf

Ohhhhh, okay okay. Ya, i definitely don’t have 359 wheels. I wish I did. Okay, so when changing the EDC on a “non-zcp” car it’s not as aggressive or noticeable as a “zcp” car, correct?

Correct. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3

"Competition Package (ZCP)

The "Competition Package" (sometimes known as ZCP) version was released in 2010. The changes related to the suspension and electronic stability control and consisted of:

Ride height lowered by 10 mm (0.4 in)
Revised tuning of the adjustable dampers (Electronic Damping Control)
An "M" mode for the electronic stability control
19-inch wheels"

[S65Hunter]

Originally Posted by Cmassey3

Evolve did a series on a higher mileage e92 M3 and I imagine yours will need most of the suspension and bushing work they go into detail on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=texA..._ipVJTtGpyo8ew

My bushings and EDC are still in good shape at 84k miles, but I'm planning the refresh the EDC before 100k.

What are you planning on doing? I'm at 84k as well and I'm fairly sure it's the original suspension. I'd really like to keep edc, regardless of nearly everyone saying to delete it and go with coil overs. I have some H&R springs laying around and was thinking if the Bilstein B6 damptronics.

[S65Hunter]

Originally Posted by beckumf

It’s a 2009 E92 M3 comp. So i’m pretty sure that means it had EDC. There’s no oversteer or anything, the steer just feels like bouncy I guess?

I’m not really sure how to explain it perfectly without you actually being in the car you know? That’s understandable that with high mileage obviously comes with some wear on bushings, sway bars, etc. I just wanted to know if I had any problems or if I’m just really not used to it. Also, it’s on a winter tire setup with a lot of tread life left. It’s on 19” wheels and i ran 18” on my civic so maybe that could also be why.

Winter tires, worn out suspension and if you haven't Changed the EDC to sport mode, I'd day those are your issues right there. Slap the MPSS4s on, and press the edc button twice and I bet you'll feel a difference. Though I'd recommend a suspension refresh as well

[beckumf]

Originally Posted by S65Hunter

Winter tires, worn out suspension and if you haven't Changed the EDC to sport mode, I'd day those are your issues right there. Slap the MPSS4s on, and press the edc button twice and I bet you'll feel a difference. Though I'd recommend a suspension refresh as well

I think at the end of the day i definitely need a suspension refresh and different tires! Thank you for the help.

[beckumf]

Originally Posted by Reddevils7

Correct me if I'm wrong someone but I don't believe MY 09 offered competition package (zcp). Check your spec sheet. You can just run the vin online

For modifications/updates, really just depends on what your budget is. Let us know and we can recommend you the most cost effective updates to get it feeling like a true M again

What do you guys recommend is like a fairly budget friendly route as far as like suspesion refresh? I know that everyone usually goes with like Ohlins R/T but I am not really trying to blow like 3k on coils. I was looking at BC racing coils that retain EDC and drop the car a good 1”-2” which is the kind of fitment I am looking for.

I don’t want anything over the top, but I don’t want to cheap out so somewhere good in the middle! I enjoy going on canyons and just casual/somewhat aggressive street driving.

[nowayout]

Best inexpensive option is the ST XTA coilovers. Stay away from the BC stuff

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by Reddevils7

Correct me if I'm wrong someone but I don't believe MY 09 offered competition package (zcp). Check your spec sheet. You can just run the vin online

For modifications/updates, really just depends on what your budget is. Let us know and we can recommend you the most cost effective updates to get it feeling like a true M again

That's correct. There was no ZCP option in 2009.

On non-ZCP cars, comfort EDC is dynamic, sport is dynamic and sport plus, the dampers are static. On the ZCP cars, sport plus is also dynamic.

[beckumf]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

That's correct. There was no ZCP option in 2009.

On non-ZCP cars, comfort EDC is dynamic, sport is dynamic and sport plus, the dampers are static. On the ZCP cars, sport plus is also dynamic.

What’s the best mode for like canyon runs? Sport?

[beckumf]

Originally Posted by nowayout

Best inexpensive option is the ST XTA coilovers. Stay away from the BC stuff

Really, what’s wrong with BC? I’ve heard nothing but could stuff about these coils?

[Reddevils7]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

That's correct. There was no ZCP option in 2009.

On non-ZCP cars, comfort EDC is dynamic, sport is dynamic and sport plus, the dampers are static. On the ZCP cars, sport plus is also dynamic.

In the E9x it's comfort/normal/sport for EDC settings but you're correct, sport is static. In the F8x gen they brought out comfort/sport/sport+ (not that the naming really matters). My car is MY10 so no zcp but it has the tech package with EDC. It was a super clean single owner low milage so that's why I got it. I already had a set of very nice winter wheels on my m2cs that are 19" 9.5/10.5 width so I didn't mind not having zcp as it's my daily

I had Alex@alpine code the zcp EDC settings and euro mdm and honestly, beyond the 10 mm lowered springs, it's pretty much a zcp now with the addition of my flow forged wheels that are the same weight as the 359M

OP, whoever posted that evolve video is a good place to start. That's why I was asking your budget. Spending 2-3k on coilovers is definitely nice but if you're not updating/upgrading your original bushings first then it's still gonna be a bit sloppy

[beckumf]

Originally Posted by Reddevils7

In the E9x it's comfort/normal/sport for EDC settings but you're correct, sport is static. In the F8x gen they brought out comfort/sport/sport+ (not that the naming really matters). My car is MY10 so no zcp but it has the tech package with EDC. It was a super clean single owner low milage so that's why I got it. I already had a set of very nice winter wheels on my m2cs that are 19" 9.5/10.5 width so I didn't mind not having zcp as it's my daily

I had Alex@alpine code the zcp EDC settings and euro mdm and honestly, beyond the 10 mm lowered springs, it's pretty much a zcp now with the addition of my flow forged wheels that are the same weight as the 359M

OP, whoever posted that evolve video is a good place to start. That's why I was asking your budget. Spending 2-3k on coilovers is definitely nice but if you're not updating/upgrading your original bushings first then it's still gonna be a bit sloppy

Nice man, good for you. I think my plan is to either get some relatively “budget” coils or get some nice springs. Then I am probably gonna go with a staggered 18” and 18.5” setup and refresh the bushings. But I haven’t really gotten that far. I gotta pass smog with a straightpiped exhaust first and then get my rod bearings done and then i can get there.

[Cmassey3]

Originally Posted by beckumf

Nice man, good for you. I think my plan is to either get some relatively “budget” coils or get some nice springs. Then I am probably gonna go with a staggered 18” and 18.5” setup and refresh the bushings. But I haven’t really gotten that far. I gotta pass smog with a straightpiped exhaust first and then get my rod bearings done and then i can get there.

If you already have EDC, the Bilstein B6 w/edc retention are probably the best bet: https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...-4-E9X-M3.html

Otherwise, you need a defeat module for the EDC system errors that non-edc coil-overs will surface. I think most indie shops will steer you this way as well since OEM replacements are $$$ and you only get a benefit from a coil over kit once you go high end like Ohlins/KW Clubsports/MCS for $4-$6k.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by beckumf

I am not sure but I want to make sure that there isn’t any actual problems and it’s just me not being used to the car yet. I’m asking because the E9x M3 generation is KNOWN for its handling capabilities and it just feels odd when driving. Any suggestions or things it may be? Thank you so much to anyone that has some insight!

I'm probably gonna get bashed for this but here goes - E9x M3 stock handling is nothing to write home about. I came from a Renaultsport Megane RS250 - one of the best handling FWD cars of its time - and was disappointed with the M3's stock handling. The M3 had a lot of mechanical grip but no finesse. Balance was crap, M3 srock LSD is sloooooow compared to the Megane's helical diff.

I've now owned my M3 for 8 yrs and in that time I've spent a lot of time and effort to get my M3 to handle like my old Megane. The good news is that it can be done, but it's a lot of work/money.

The E9x M3 has a great chassis ruined by compromises made for comfort. The 'loose' tail end you're feeling is likely caused by the rubber rear subframe bushes. These bushes wear and allow up to 1 inch lateral deflection over uneven roads. It's not that your rear tires are slipping, it's the car body moving independently of the rear tires dues to the soft rubber bushes. Changing the rear subframe bushes to solid aluminum is the first thing I recommend you do and it totally transformed the M3 for me. I only started to gain confidence with the M3 after I put in solid subframe bushes. Best thing is there is no NVH penalty.

The M3 is also very sensitive to alignment, especially rear toe. I'd get a good alignment done as well. Aside from that I've changed just about everything possible with my suspension without compromising its ability as a daily driven car. But I'd stray with the rear subframe bushes.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by beckumf

What do you guys recommend is like a fairly budget friendly route as far as like suspesion refresh? I know that everyone usually goes with like Ohlins R/T but I am not really trying to blow like 3k on coils. I was looking at BC racing coils that retain EDC and drop the car a good 1”-2” which is the kind of fitment I am looking for.

I don’t want anything over the top, but I don’t want to cheap out so somewhere good in the middle! I enjoy going on canyons and just casual/somewhat aggressive street driving.

BC racing are not edc compatible. BC uses a conventional damper, does not contain an electromechanical valve like an edc damper. The compatible part likely means it comes with edc simulators to suppress the edc error.

BC may actually make your car handle worse, not better. They’ll be very harsh compared to something like the R&T. BC are for the stance group that want to lower their car so low to the point you can’t drive it on the street. Their custom Swift spring upgrade is a gimmick. Swift springs do not make a damper run better/smoother just because you’re using Swift springs. I have no experience with ST XTA dampers but they’re basically KW V1/V2/V3 dampers in a non-SS damper body to reduce cost. I’d look at ISC dampers if they’re available for the e9x M3. I believe they offer two packages - street valving or track valving + two or three spring rate options.. Price is ~$1200.

As for Evolve/Bilstein B6 Damptronic or Bilstein B6 Damptronic, I’d wait to hear reviews from people who’ve actually installed the dampers. The Evolve/Bilstein B6 have been a mixed bag on the f8x. One common thing is people find them to be too harsh. The B6 is a monotube damper with a pretty high nitrogen gas pressure which makes the damper harsh over certain types of bumpy roads - rides over them, not absorbing them.

[Cmassey3]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

BC racing are not edc compatible. BC uses a conventional damper, does not contain an electromechanical valve like an edc damper. The compatible part likely means it comes with edc simulators to suppress the edc error.

BC may actually make your car handle worse, not better. They’ll be very harsh compared to something like the R&T. BC are for the stance group that want to lower their car so low to the point you can’t drive it on the street. Their custom Swift spring upgrade is a gimmick. Swift springs do not make a damper run better/smoother just because you’re using Swift springs. I have no experience with ST XTA dampers but they’re basically KW V1/V2/V3 dampers in a non-SS damper body to reduce cost. I’d look at ISC dampers if they’re available for the e9x M3. I believe they offer two packages - street valving or track valving + two or three spring rate options.. Price is ~$1200.

As for Evolve/Bilstein B6 Damptronic or Bilstein B6 Damptronic, I’d wait to hear reviews from people who’ve actually installed the dampers. The Evolve/Bilstein B6 have been a mixed bag on the f8x. One common thing is people find them to be too harsh. The B6 is a monotube damper with a pretty high nitrogen gas pressure which makes the damper harsh over certain types of bumpy roads - rides over them, not absorbing them.

I think the standard B6 should have enough field data and feedback for a browse, but the Evolve re-tuned ones have only been out a month I think. I want to say M359 restorations got the first set on the E92:

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Redd

These bushes wear and allow up to 1 inch lateral deflection over uneven roads. It's not that your rear tires are slipping, it's the car body moving independently of the rear tires dues to the soft rubber bushes. Changing the rear subframe bushes to solid aluminum is the first thing I recommend you do and it totally transformed the M3 for me. I only started to gain confidence with the M3 after I put in solid subframe bushes. Best thing is there is no NVH penalty.

And where did you get this number from? If this is true then there would have been quite a few rear subframe failures by now. Based on the bushing design with a bolt down the centerline of the bushing, it’s not possible to get a 1” lateral displacement without physical contact by different parts of the bushing. You’d need 2” of true lateral clearance between the ID and OD of the bushing. This would be bigger news than RB clearance. The driveshaft, diff and axles wouldn’t be able to accommodate a +/-1” lateral deflection.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Cmassey3

I think the standard B6 should have enough field data and feedback for a browse, but the Evolve re-tuned ones have only been out a month I think. I want to say M359 restorations got the first set on the E92:

Ok. Doesn’t change anything that I’ve stated. The various derivatives of Bilstein B6 Damptronic dampers are based on a high gas pressure monotube damper. The gas lifting force in the B6 is significant (actually any Bilstein monotube damper) and it acts like an undamped preloaded spring in parallel to the main spring. The piston rod doesn’t start to move and compress into the damper body until there’s an applied compressive force that exceeds the gas lifting force. This increases the harshness of a damper and makes it ride on, rather than absorb, bumps. If the goal is to improve ride quality and performance over stock, the B6 Damptronic is not what I’d recommend. The Evolve/Bilstein version with its claimed improvements in comfort and sport+ edc settings, hasn’t been a great success on the f8x so be careful if you’re considering it for your e9x M3.

[beckumf]

Originally Posted by Redd

I'm probably gonna get bashed for this but here goes - E9x M3 stock handling is nothing to write home about. I came from a Renaultsport Megane RS250 - one of the best handling FWD cars of its time - and was disappointed with the M3's stock handling. The M3 had a lot of mechanical grip but no finesse. Balance was crap, M3 srock LSD is sloooooow compared to the Megane's helical diff.

I've now owned my M3 for 8 yrs and in that time I've spent a lot of time and effort to get my M3 to handle like my old Megane. The good news is that it can be done, but it's a lot of work/money.

The E9x M3 has a great chassis ruined by compromises made for comfort. The 'loose' tail end you're feeling is likely caused by the rubber rear subframe bushes. These bushes wear and allow up to 1 inch lateral deflection over uneven roads. It's not that your rear tires are slipping, it's the car body moving independently of the rear tires dues to the soft rubber bushes. Changing the rear subframe bushes to solid aluminum is the first thing I recommend you do and it totally transformed the M3 for me. I only started to gain confidence with the M3 after I put in solid subframe bushes. Best thing is there is no NVH penalty.

The M3 is also very sensitive to alignment, especially rear toe. I'd get a good alignment done as well. Aside from that I've changed just about everything possible with my suspension without compromising its ability as a daily driven car. But I'd stray with the rear subframe bushes.

Cool man, I totally agree. I came from a 2018 Honda Civic Si and even though I had it for 3 years, I felt I could push it more than this car and still stick(even though fwd can handle very well on canyons). But that is some great insight on the bushings, thank you!

How much do you think that rear bushing job all around would cost? I’d have someone do it because I know getting bushings out of subfram is a PAIN!

[Redd]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

And where did you get this number from?

Saw it with my own eyes, granted on a E92 335i and not an M3. I was in my M3 following my friend's 335i. I knew of a bridge joint coming up in the road ahead and bridge joints cause the most lateral movement. So I watched as his rear wheel went over the bridge joint and I saw his rear bumper move sideways about an inch, give or take. Now imagine you're in another car, following close but not dangerously so. For you to be able to see this movement, then the movement must be significant. We weren't even driving fast, normal city speeds maybe 60-70 kph. Personally it surprised me how much lateral movement there was.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Ok. Doesn’t change anything that I’ve stated. The various derivatives of Bilstein B6 Damptronic dampers are based on a high gas pressure monotube damper. The gas lifting force in the B6 is significant (actually any Bilstein monotube damper) and it acts like an undamped preloaded spring in parallel to the main spring. The piston rod doesn’t start to move and compress into the damper body until there’s an applied compressive force that exceeds the gas lifting force. This increases the harshness of a damper and makes it ride on, rather than absorb, bumps. If the goal is to improve ride quality and performance over stock, the B6 Damptronic is not what I’d recommend. The Evolve/Bilstein version with its claimed improvements in comfort and sport+ edc settings, hasn’t been a great success on the f8x so be careful if you’re considering it for your e9x M3.

re: Evolve Bilsteins -

I wouldn't trust that Evolve Bilsteins necessarily are a great solution that solves the problems the original Bilstein B6s did. I would be cautious of a vendor that:

claims to know the best bearings for our car by holding them in their hand:

Originally Posted by tdott

Apparently holding them in your hand....

I'd rather see some measurements, numbers, info on materials, info on quality control and tolerance.

from https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...30&postcount=1

also switched out the cats in their x-pipe without notice and then claimed to "not use a cheap cat" when they very literally switched to a cheaper cat - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...20&postcount=9

This isn't to say Bilstein B6s aren't better than stock, but rather building off your notes on those and more of a commentary of whether you should trust Evolve in this situation.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

re: Evolve Bilsteins -

I wouldn't trust that Evolve Bilsteins necessarily are a great solution that solves the problems the original Bilstein B6s did. I would be cautious of a vendor that:

claims to know the best bearings for our car by holding them in their hand:


from https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...30&postcount=1

also switched out the cats in their x-pipe without notice and then claimed to "not use a cheap cat" when they very literally switched to a cheaper cat - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?

This isn't to say Bilstein B6s aren't better than stock, but rather building off your notes on those and more of a commentary of whether you should trust Evolve in this situation.

I remember when they first made that statement about Mahle RBs

Then they followed it up with but we will still continue to use oem RBs because there’s nothing wrong with using oem RBs…so is Mahle the best or is oem still the best option? Can’t piss off the people you just talked into using oem RBs.

For the f8x, they didn’t know why the ride height of cars would increase by at least 1/3” after installing the Evolve/Bilstein B6 dampers. If they don’t understand that, how much damper tuning experience do they have? My guess is they told Bilstein to make comfort more comfortable and sport+ more sporty. That’s part of the problem with EDC. EDC is trying to find the optimal damping rate to eliminate disturbances as quickly as possible and this is built into the edc closed-loop controller, not a specific damping curve/rate. You may limit the peak damping force in comfort by limiting peak voltage but edc is still trying to damp out oscillations as quickly as possible.