E93 M3 Random starting problem. (100% SOLVED)

[SaNGRia]

Originally Posted by Beemdog

No, your angel eyes are connected to the CAN bus whether they are off or not. If noise and or glitches on the CAN bus are your problem (and I don't know that it is), you would have to disconnect aftermarket accessories completely. But I have not heard of Lux having this problem, at least the newer models. Pretty simple to disconnect the electrical connection to the angel eye and leave the bulb part in place, though.

I will do that. Thank you for the information.

[SaNGRia]

Ok. I want to share an update.

I went to a restaurant to pick up my order last Friday. And parked it. Came back and car didn't start. Open the trunk remove the blue IBS cable connection to find out the car going to start or not, and did not work!

When i tried to start the car without IBS cable connected, it says something about ignition on the idrive but didn't pay attention, and plugged the cable back and tried like 10 times till start. Car started and came to home.

I connected my OBDII cable today to see is there any code stored. It stored something different than usual. (i think this is because of removing this blue cable)

Here is the codes :

DME/DDE - OKAY - 3 Error Stored

CDC2 (i usually get this one)
2B61 (never got before)
278F (never got before)

CVM/CTM - OKAY - 1 Error Stored

A6A4 (I always get this - something related to convertible top, overspeed warning)

I freaked out about 2B61 (it is either intake manifold pressure sensor or clutch spinning problem) because i was looking at my car and some topics about 2008 Clutch replacement couple days ago, but i was feeling very good about my clutch since i have 35k miles on it.

I started the car (didn't start like 5-6 times) and drove outside of the garage. Tried the old school way to check my clutch which is:
Put the 2nd gear, handbrake is all the way up and tried to move the car, car tried to move and about to stop in 3 times try!

So it shows me that my clutch is fine, isn't it? And i reseted the modules right before this test and car did not start about 4-5 attempt. Drove about 8 miles. Came back and read the computer again.

DME/DDE

CDC2 the only one was stored.

What is the possibility of 2B61 and 278F error codes are stored after removing the IBS cable?

Here is the meaning of this codes from ISTA

[SaNGRia]

I am seeing something in this error code explanation :



I got this error code right after the starting issue happened before the clutch test that i am done. So in this explanation it is related to MSA button, which is start/stop button. Am i right???? or what?

[anom3]

hi.

you may be onto something.

MSA is the auto start / stop. perhaps this is preventing your vehicle from starting.

are you knowledable with ncs expert? disabling MSA (auto start / stop) completly is actually quite easy. its about 8-10 settings across 3 or 4 modules from what i remember.

but this sounds quite related as the auto start stop has a large impact on when the car starts and stops.

if i was in your position i would explore this route.

Originally Posted by SaNGRia

I am seeing something in this error code explanation :

Attachment 1256672

I got this error code right after the starting issue happened before the clutch test that i am done. So in this explanation it is related to MSA button, which is start/stop button. Am i right???? or what?

[anom3]

oh and dont worry about 2B61. i get that sometimes too.

i had my clutch replaced about 10K km ago.

from what i understand, the transmission detects when the clutch slips. which happens from time to time with even a brand new clutch. eg: when you are parking or slipping the clutch on purpose (eg: driving very slow in 1st gear with the clutch pedal un-released fully).

[SaNGRia]

Originally Posted by anom3

oh and dont worry about 2B61. i get that sometimes too.

i had my clutch replaced about 10K km ago.

from what i understand, the transmission detects when the clutch slips. which happens from time to time with even a brand new clutch. eg: when you are parking or slipping the clutch on purpose (eg: driving very slow in 1st gear with the clutch pedal un-released fully).

Thank you for the information But it might be intake manifold pressure sensor related to IBS removal not the clutch spinning according to code explanation. 1 code has different results.

And yeah i can do coding with ncsExpert but how i am going to start the car if i deactivate msa button function. I read somewhere if you have CA it may not work or you may not stop the car, what do you think about it?

[anom3]

not really sure about CA as i dont have comfort access. but i dont think MSA would affect CA at all.

its a quick and easy code:

DME (MSS60 or whatever it is) module has MSA aktiv / nicht_aktiv... switch it to nicht_aktiv.

just to be sure also change in IKHA (IHKA_89 i think it is) : MSA to nicht_aktiv.

those 2 should be enough to temporary disable MSA completly. 5 minute code, worth a shot. you can always flip them back

Originally Posted by SaNGRia

Thank you for the information But it might be intake manifold pressure sensor related to IBS removal not the clutch spinning according to code explanation. 1 code has different results.

And yeah i can do coding with ncsExpert but how i am going to start the car if i deactivate msa button function. I read somewhere if you have CA it may not work or you may not stop the car, what do you think about it?

[SaNGRia]

Originally Posted by anom3

not really sure about CA as i dont have comfort access. but i dont think MSA would affect CA at all.

its a quick and easy code:

DME (MSS60 or whatever it is) module has MSA aktiv / nicht_aktiv... switch it to nicht_aktiv.

just to be sure also change in IKHA (IHKA_89 i think it is) : MSA to nicht_aktiv.

those 2 should be enough to temporary disable MSA completly. 5 minute code, worth a shot. you can always flip them back

Thank you for this information. Since I am not knowledgeable about function of MSA, can u explain what I am exactly going to do with this code? If this coding makes the car start every time, what part should I need to replace?

All I know is, the start/stop button and ignition switch is connected to each other and that button also works in two different switch modes so u can listen to radio or reset the modules without starting the car.
Also one of the description of this error code is MSA button function. is this the one start/stop button or ignition switch unit on the steering column?

[SaNGRia]

Ok. I found the detail information regarding to my CDC2 error code.
The code i have in my computer is not related to MSA Button.

ALL I NEED IS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THE MEANING OF THIS CODE , and hopefully i will fix this starting issue

Code: CDC2
Fehler: SMG CAN Message 2

[SaNGRia]

There is a high possibility that DME/DDE error code is the reason of this starting issue not the starter. Here is some information from EXPERT ISTA :

[SaNGRia]

I spent a day to re install DIS v57 to find out about CDC2 error code in DME, but everything looks perfect with DIS v57(Exclamation Marks) and Only INPA can read the stored error code.

Here is more information about SMG CAN BUS :

The SMG CAN Bus is the link for signal exchange between the DME and SMG II Control Unit. It allows the DME to issue command instructions for clutch and gearbox control as well as shift sequence and enables SMG II communication with the vehicle CAN BUS via the DME.

if this problem related to CDC2 error code, which one effecting not to start?

Signals exchanged via SMG CAN Bus:
Engine Speed, Engine Coolant Temp, Engine Oil Temp, Intake Air Temp, PWG, EDR Feedback Pots, Wheel Speed, Transverse Acceleration, Steering Angle, Cruise Status, Parking Brake, Door Contacts, Brake Light Switch, Key Memory"

My Experience shows that CDC2 error comes when the Clutch sensor is not working and not completing the circuit between DME and CAS modules!

[SaNGRia]

Some tips :

I went to my old hard drive to see some old pictures, and i saw a folder called DIS. I opened up and saw my old DIS diagnosis screenshots. I wasn't knowledgable during that time about any of the programs. Now i saw the old error codes that i want to share :



i cleared the codes during that time, and i never got the same error codes. But A559 KOMBI error shows that Terminal 30-f switched off and i googled it, it is related to short driving and alternator not charging the battery enough, so drive more or use battery charger! And it can cause no start!

or any one of the following:

Frequent wakeups
Closed circuit current faults
Sleeping inhibited
Driving profile
Starting capability limit reached

So it make sense if i still get the same error and no start. But i do not get this error again.

Also i cleared CDC2 code before i drive the car today. Car did not have any issue of starting. I came home to read the error code history, and there is no error code stored so far.

I am watching that CDC2 either will randomly store even the car starts or just related no start issue!

[///M Power-Belgium]

I noticed (heard) in your first video #1 that you have the cold start clunk noise too .
I heard it at exactly 38 seconds runtime .

[SaNGRia]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I noticed (heard) in your first video #1 that you have the cold start clunk noise too .
I heard it at exactly 38 seconds runtime .

Hello, i am not sure about the clunk noise since i am holding the camera and trying to measure the voltage and moving stuff. But i don't notice any strange noise on regular basis when i start the car. If i do not drive like a week at the first start it starts little bit rough.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by SaNGRia

Hello, i am not sure about the clunk noise since i am holding the camera and trying to measure the voltage and moving stuff. But i don't notice any strange noise on regular basis when i start the car. If i do not drive like a week at the first start it starts little bit rough.

I see and I'm sorry because this clunk noise is off topic , but do you know how the clunk noise sounds ? Because I'm 100% sure that you have it too ?
This clunk noise happens only when our S65 is really cold (or not driven for several days) and lots of S65's have it and most people don't notice it .

[SaNGRia]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I see and I'm sorry because this clunk noise is off topic , but do you know how the clunk noise sounds ? Because I'm 100% sure that you have it too ?
This clunk noise happens only when our S65 is really cold (or not driven for several days) and lots of S65's have it and most people don't notice it .

Yeah i know what exactly you are talking about. There was a topic on this forum about it. Nothing is serious. Here is the topic :

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996069

And yeah if i do not drive the car a week and if i start the car, it does only at the first start like a sec and goes away.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by SaNGRia

Yeah i know what exactly you are talking about. There was a topic on this forum about it. Nothing is serious. Here is the topic :

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996069

And yeah if i do not drive the car a week and if i start the car, it does only at the first start like a sec and goes away.

Exactly , and I really hope you find a fix for your main start problem .

[SaNGRia]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Exactly , and I really hope you find a fix for your main start problem .

I am doing every effort not to go stealer and also keep the car till i die. I sent an email to Germany and waiting an answer.

Car looks just brand new to me and runs as good as the look. Just need to find this issue. I took too many time but hoping it will pay off.

The good thing is learning a lot and feeling like a bmw technician .
Sad thing is problem is still exist /:

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by SaNGRia

I am doing every effort not to go stealer and also keep the car till i die. I sent an email to Germany and waiting an answer.

Car looks just brand new to me and runs as good as the look. Just need to find this issue. I took too many time but hoping it will pay off.

The good thing is learning a lot and feeling like a bmw technician .
Sad thing is problem is still exist /:

Please keep us posted about your problem .

[SaNGRia]

Here is the major 2 update :

I talked to one of my client also my friend who is from my country and retired Electrical Engineer told me that the SMG CAN Message 2 is related to clutch sensor (i still don't know how did he know this since i am researching CDC2 Error over months). So What i am planing to do is to make sure, -when the car has no start if it takes more than 3 attempt idrive sometimes warning me for PRESS THE CLUTCH-, So before this warning i will connect to the computer and scan the system. If the CDC2 is on the record that means sensor has problem. It is normal that when you try 3 or more times pushing the start button one after the other, system can getting confused and saying that clutch is not pressed. It never says the clutch is not pressed first 3 attempt so far!

Other than that, i wrote the same problem on Turkish Bmw Forum which is bmwpassion.net and one of the Bmw service dealer owner who is also professional Electrician told me that Open the DIS and after the reading, go to CAS and select Terminals including Terminal 50, Before you start the car always get ready your computer for possible not start issue and than read the live terminal Amp and Voltage values which i never thought to do, then today i figured out how to do and now i am so glad that i can see the values.

Whenever the issue will replicate, i will be seeing all the values without doing nothing (like opening the hood and measuring or removing the intake to check the starter voltage)

So result will be If the Terminal 50E still getting the voltage and if the start is not possible, 100% i have problem in the starter motor or solenoid so i will replace the whole unit anyway.

If the terminal 50E not getting the voltage when the car has no start so i have to make sure the Clutch sensor is working or Ignition switch is working or we will look for the CAS unit.

Here is the video of CAS Live monitoring by DIS v57 with K-DCAN
IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE VALUES CLEAR ENOUGH, CLICK THE PLAY BUTTON AND THAN PAUSE THE VIDEO MAKE IT FULL SCREEN, SELECT 1080HP WAIT LIKE 5 SEC THEN PLAY IT!

And also i had chance to check my clutch sensor as well :





looks working so far! I made 2 short trip and more than 6 start process connecting the computer, OF COURSE There is no issue!

[SaNGRia]

After driving hard from the Dealer today (bought the rear brake pads), i came home and let it sit about 5 min. And i was feeling that the car is not going to start, Whenever i push too hard, car sometimes fails to start and Thank God it did again

I parked the car in the garage, waited like about 5 min. and than put my hand to door handle to open the door, Car doors open like few second delay and i said it won't start at this time!

That delay showed me the signs that is not going to start since i am very aware of the problem .

And i sit the car connect the cables, before try to start the car diagnosed it with the ISTA D and 1 Fault code stored (I wasn't finding any error codes with the ISTA D before the reason was i did not know i had to UNBLOCK all the files that is stored in the folders, so UNBLOCKed all of them them since my POWERSHELL version is not updated to 3.0 or higher in windows system and it took 4 hours today early in the morning before this situation happened)

so ista D 1 Fault code was related to DSC, TERMINAL 15 ON
(IF YOU DO NOT TURN THE IGNITION ALL THE WAY UP, DSC WILL NOT RESPONSE, SO THIS IS A NORMAL ERROR THAT I FOUND LATER ON)


But i have to tell you that right before the entrance of my community there is a traffic light on the main road, i turned off the DSC and push the gas too hard, the car was drifting very well so i am really not sure it is related to this action or not!

And i said ok if that fault code is present i will have starting problem because it is related to TERMINAL 15 which is one of the wake up line or so

So yeah and i did, you can see in the video. So during that time i was calm and trying to figure it out is there anything related to Clutch Sensor so i eliminated this issue because it does not recognize anything when this problem is present on terminal 15 but it works whenever the car receives the electric from faulty relay or line! (Still not sure)

And Starter does not get any electric during that time either so starter works like a charm when the electric is on! ( 100% not the starter)

I tired 2 different key fob, Nothing to do with the key either! (100% not the keys)


One of the concern was CDC2 error code so i didn't receive any code before the starting attempt but after trying 10 times to start the car, PRESS THE CLUTCH error came to drive again.

After this video i made an another diagnose and CDC2 is came back to list again. Im sure it is related to this electrical problem not the clutch or SMG!

Here is the second diagnose :


And than i clicked the error codes to see the TEST PLANS and solutions
Here is the first one



And then click the DSC Error Solution


After that i went back and click the CAN/FlexRay and it added JBE to the list :




I am exteremly excited right now that i found the major part of the problem so it is 90% solved but now i have to go to right Avenue from this point.

All i can say is it is not a STARTER Problem it can be Clutch Sensor or DME problem. It is Def related to CAS as well. The biggest role of the starting process is supported by Cas and Dme. The fault code came after i drove hard with DSC OFF and i am not sure DSC Error is related to my hard driving or Terminal 15 ON! But it is something about waking up the car! (DSC ERROR IS SOLVED, THE REASON WAS YOU HAVE TO TURN THE IGNITION ON TILL ALL THE LIGHTS ARE ON, OTHERWISE DSC DOESNT RESPONSE)

I tried the brand new spare key as well to see waking up OR fixing the problem, DID NOT WORK Either.
TERMINAL 50E which is the starter gets the Power to start it, does not get any ELECTRIC when i press the start button.
When the problem occurring , Clutch sensor is not getting the electric either!!!!

You will see the details on the video as well!

Here is the Video of the starting problem diagnosing via ISTA D K+DCAN

[SaNGRia]

Update :

I didn't clear any fault code after the video is taken. I woke up today and plugged to the computer. Only CDC2 error was there. And later on i realized that if you do not turn the ignition all the way on (all the lights are on the dash) DSC doesn't response. SO DSC responded and there is no issue on the DSC what so ever.

And than somehow this CDC2 error was on the list and it turned into DME no communication error and temporary DME was yellow meaning did not respond. And than i removed the cable plugged again. Cleared all the codes. Started the car. Drove about 3 miles. Diagnosed again. No error.


So what i am going to do is i ordered DME Main Relay (Sky Blue) :

Part No : 61-36-6-915-327


I am now researching why terminal 50E and clutch does not responded when i was trying to start the car.

So the Error code related to CDC2 was Message (OBD Faulty type, 0x580)faulty, receiver DME, Transmitter EMF

My understanding this error code either faulty receiver DME or Transmitter EMF
EMF is the German abbreviation for electromechanical parking brake in ISTA P so i do not think it is related to EMF

So theory is DME obviously does not response to CAS and CAS can not send the voltage to Terminal 50E which shows in my video. So maybe the main relay does not do the job after getting hot or i do not know. But it is a very cheap part and worth to try.

Here is the location of the relay :



or Problem is just that simple :

Clutch Switch :


You see in the video, clutch is not responding, If clutch sensor is not completing the circuit, DME will not respond :




The clutch switch does not respond when no start happening, idrive doesn't recognize that i press clutch or not i tried several times and idrive gave me 2 times warning for me to press the clutch.

Questions are :


DME and CAS is different modules. Is there any possibility when DME is not responding, Clutch switch will stop working? I mean is that possible that when DME not responding CAS module can not complete the circuit so doesn't read the status of Clutch sensor?

Or Clutch sensor really doesn't work and Cas can not read the status of the clutch sensor so it makes DME's respond fail?



If anyone has any other advise you are welcome