Do all E9x M3 have rod bearing problems?

[Dr. Dre]

Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars

If all E9x M3s had bearing failure, there would be a recall. Do most? No. Do some? Yes.

There is a threshold number you would need to reach. If all e90 3 series there are only 15,000 M3s. You will probably never get to a threshold where a recall would be triggered. If BMW is not addressing the issue internally as a company then it won't meet "tread" act requirements where NHTSA can track it.

[Aboutcars]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dre

If your engine fails then theory becomes your reality and the thousand your going to have to pay. It's not that hard to figure out what the issue is. I guess BMW has never had any issues with rod bearings on "M" cars.

typical flawed logic. Just because your car fails doesn't change the statistics overall. Proving that an engine failed 'because' of RB is far from being simple.
This is typical short thinking on the surface but common.

[Dr. Dre]

Originally Posted by Aboutcars

typical flawed logic. Just because your car fails doesn't change the statistics overall. Proving that an engine failed 'because' of RB is far from being simple.
This is typical short thinking on the surface but common.

You're right. This argument is just silly. Each individual has a decision to make. You can decide it's not an issue and carry on or your can get them changed. I don't care what anyone else does.

[SYT_Shadow]

Yes, all years are just as affected as well.

If you have a 2010+, blackstone does nothing. You can decide to keep wasting your money though

Every single S65 which has had preventative rod bearing service has shown bearings that are worn way beyond 'industry standard'. One does not have to be a member of Mensa to infer that excessively worn bearings will yield bearing failure down the road

The DIY is in my sig. It's a simple risk choice. Do you risk a 25k engine for 1.5k DIY or 2.5k shop work?

The best replacement combo is BE Bearings and BE-ARP bolts (not ARP bolts, the BE-ARP ones) or just using stock bolts

[Mr. BMW]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Every single S65 which has had preventative rod bearing service has shown bearings that are worn way beyond 'industry standard'. One does not have to be a member of Mensa to infer that excessively worn bearings will yield bearing failure down the road

Really?
I've seen a few posted that didn't look bad at all. Including one recently that didn't have any issues with his motor until he got his replaced and then started having a loud knocking noise. The shop that did the work had no idea what the issue was. So now he was stuck with a car that he could not drive. Not sure what the final outcome of that was.

Once my CPO warranty runs out I'm going to pickup another warranty and just take my chances before I have someone tear down my motor just cause everyone else is doing it....

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Mr. BMW

Really?
I've seen a few posted that didn't look bad at all. Including one recently that didn't have any issues with his motor until he got his replaced and then started having a loud knocking noise. The shop that did the work had no idea what the issue was. So now he was stuck with a car that he could not drive. Not sure what the final outcome of that was.

Once my CPO warranty runs out I'm going to pickup another warranty and just take my chances before I have someone tear down my motor just cause everyone else is doing it....

I don't recall one. But please direct me to the ones you see that don't look bad. Normal wear for 50k miles would be essentially zero wear so if you've seen that, please show me.
The engine subforum is choc full of people removing their bearings. They all look bad.
Even if you find one that looks good, statistically it doesn't mean much to the forum's sample

The bearings from pretty much every single E9X looks worse than my E46M at 130k miles

[Mr. BMW]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I don't recall one. But please direct me to the ones you see that don't look bad. Normal wear for 50k miles would be essentially zero wear so if you've seen that, please show me.
The engine subforum is choc full of people removing their bearings. They all look bad.
Even if you find one that looks good, statistically it doesn't mean much to the forum's sample

The bearings from pretty much every single E9X looks worse than my E46M at 130k miles

I don't have time to go searching to find ones that didnt look bad but I remember seeing some that didn't look bad to me. Bearing are going to have some wear on them. It's metal on metal. I would be more surprised if there wasn't some wear on them...

Here's the one where he had them replaced and then had a main bearing failure probably due to something that the shop did wrong.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...hlight=bearing

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Mr. BMW

I don't have time to go searching to find ones that didnt look bad but I remember seeing some that didn't look bad to me. Bearing are going to have some wear on them. It's metal on metal. I would be more surprised if there wasn't some wear on them...

Here's the one where he had them replaced and then had a main bearing failure probably due to something that the shop did wrong.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...hlight=bearing

The purpose of the oil running through the bearings is precisely to avoid metal on metal failure

You can read the really long thread discussing this if you want. Normal bearing wear equals no wear or almost no wear.

I've seen that thread. Yes, shops screw up. He's getting a new engine out of that most unfortunate incident

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Mr. BMW

I don't have time to go searching to find ones that didnt look bad but I remember seeing some that didn't look bad to me. Bearing are going to have some wear on them. It's metal on metal. I would be more surprised if there wasn't some wear on them...

Here's the one where he had them replaced and then had a main bearing failure probably due to something that the shop did wrong.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...hlight=bearing

I have been looking at the pictures of changed bearings for several years here. There have been several sets that look ok. That is it. Wish it was the other way around but it is not.

There have been several cases of engines with replaced bearings failing. But those motors appear to have had main bearing issues. Not many of these, but some.

There may also be an example or two of an improper bearing job resulting in engine failure.

I think bearing related engine failures will be increasing as these cars age and the mileage goes up. I recommend changing the bearings preventatively and basing your next change interval on how the original set looked. Extend the 3rd change based on the second. This is when we will start seeing how the various replacement bearings are holding up. There is little data so far. Malek at MRF has the most data. He uses VAC bearings and has reinspected a bunch of motors, but I think for racers so the mileage may be limited.

[Headhunter.M3]

Hey everyone,

I new to the forum. I have 2 m3's now. A 2013 e92 and 2011 e90. Both ZCP. E90 has 58k miles e92 has 17k. I also used to have a 2009 e92 with 40k miles that i sold. I also used to have an m4 convertible with stage 2 dinan power package, which was freaking fast but not as refined as the e90's in my opinion.

I wanted to post because I have never had a rod bearing issue. I am contemplating buying an extended warranty on my e90 with 58k miles just for peace of mind. I always use motul 10w60 and change oil every 5k miles or so and I had liqui moly ceratec.

I am concerned this rod bearing issue is going to become too mainstream that noone will ever want to buy our m3's used and we will be stuck with these "defective" vehicles that noone wants. On the flipside the e46 m3 is appreciating every day, and in my opinion having to used to own one is no comparison to the e92. The e92 smokes it. It is annoying because my bmw dealer says they have never had an m3 have rod bearing failure however if you google rod bearing failure e90 then everyone is saying that you need to replace the bearings and to be scared to death to buy a used e90. I understand that if the rod bearinga fail then there goes 20k dollars out your pocket, it is scary. But can we do something for our sake to help our resale value??? I mean I have had many high performance cars.. B7 audi rs4, corvette z06, honda civic type R, STI's, Golf R, Audi RS5 and the e92 m3 is just in a different league.

In my experience also anytime BMWs have significant issues bmw always issues an extended warranty or recall but on our e90s there are none...yet.

All i am saying is how legit is this issue? I wish someone could bring some statistical data out showing what the likelihood of having rod bearings failure is. Is it 100 to 1? 1000 to 1? 10000 to 1?? All in all it is annoying to me because I want my m3's to keep being legendary like the e46's and not go down in history being defective or a bad buy!

Who is with me??? We gotta do something about this.

Can BMW please just issue an extended warranty to male everyone happy or address the issue at the very least. Like I said. My local dealership tells me they never had an issue, and for the record I have not bought my M3's there i only have them serviced there.

That's all i have to say about that... Forrest Gump

[Headhunter.M3]

What do you mean? I read a little bit about the class action suit. What is the actual status on this? Was it dismissed?

Regardless, what are we going to do about this Rod Bearing issue/myth?

[Headhunter.M3]

Unless someone has a better idea, my plan is just to purchase an extended warranty. My thinking is if something bad happens the warranty will cover the problem and any other issues non related to rod bearing powertrain problems. I mean, come on it's a BMW M3 we should probably get an extended warranty right?

I understand replacing the bearings may solve the issue but do we even know if the aftermarket bearings will help the issue? What is the actual data behind the cause of failure and wear? Everything I read about the issue is speculation. And to fork up 2-3k for preventative maintenance on a car this nice seems crazy to me. Why won't BMW address this issue?? Again, my dealership states they have had zero Rod bearing related issues and even said the S65 motor is bulletproof.

Trying to get some info on this and not scare people from buying an M3. I want my M3's to appreciate like the e46!!

[wfdeacon88]

Originally Posted by Headhunter.M3

Unless someone has a better idea, my plan is just to purchase an extended warranty. My thinking is if something bad happens the warranty will cover the problem and any other issues non related to rod bearing powertrain problems. I mean, come on it's a BMW M3 we should probably get an extended warranty right?

I understand replacing the bearings may solve the issue but do we even know if the aftermarket bearings will help the issue? What is the actual data behind the cause of failure and wear? Everything I read about the issue is speculation. And to fork up 2-3k for preventative maintenance on a car this nice seems crazy to me. Why won't BMW address this issue?? Again, my dealership states they have had zero Rod bearing related issues and even said the S65 motor is bulletproof.

Trying to get some info on this and not scare people from buying an M3. I want my M3's to appreciate like the e46!!

yes, it is known that the correct bearings "fix" the issue. See Deansbimmer's last post in this thread. 2009 E90 DCT - 96K Miles - Original Rod Bearings changed today. https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1562310

[Headhunter.M3]

Does anyone know how many cases of legit Rod bearing engine failures there have been with the e9x? I am not talking how many people have replaced their bearings and seen "wear" I am asking how many times have Rod bearings actually failed in the e9x? And once that is found out I would find out what year of m3 the cars were, what kind of oil were they using? What was the climate? Track use? Modifications? Etc. We need to get some hard data on the issue or our M3's will not appreciate as well as they could. We could potentially debunk this rod bearing issue or atleast give people some hard data to make a decision rather than just "Ahhh the rod bearings suck, replace them!! Because I said so and stuff!!" Lol right??

[Headhunter.M3]

Originally Posted by wfdeacon88

yes, it is known that the correct bearings "fix" the issue. See Deansbimmer's last post in this thread. 2009 E90 DCT - 96K Miles - Original Rod Bearings changed today. https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1562310

What are the "correct bearings" ? So yo are stating it is known that the s65 stock bearings all have issues? Every single m3's rod bearings will fail? This is still more cicumstantial evidence then actual data.

[Headhunter.M3]

Just read his post. This is somewhat helpful. I notice this is a 2009 m3 with a lot of miles. I wonder if it was tracked and what oil was used and at what intervals?

This post is helpful but still does not convince me to spend 3k or more on replacing my bearings. I need hard data. Like 10 in every 100 s65 motors have had rod bearing failure. Even then you still have a 90% chance that your bearings will not fail.

See what I am saying? I don't want every person with an M3 or looking to buy an m3 thinking they have to sell it before 80k miles or spend 3k+ on preventative maintenance. This is such a tough issue.

A similar issue is the footwell module or FRM module. Bmw put an extended warranty out. I have had my FRM module fail and I know that there are a ton of occurences of that but there is also a lot more data.

The Rod bearing issue seems to be so talked about because the problem causes such an enormous cost, basically a brand new engine. If this were not the case I wonder if anyone would have even brought it up?

I remember when Car and Driver wrote about the M3 e92. Won car of the year beating out the GTR and 911 even. I want my m3s to be remembered and thought of like that.

I think the problem is that people beat the S*** out of M3's on the track or anywhere for that matter and there is a 15k oil change interval. If i were to guess I would say the people who did have rod bearing failures never changed their oil and beat the s*** out of their cars.

I may be idealistic but if it were a "real" issue like it is talked about why is there no.extended warranty or recall out yet?

"""The entire bearing shell is not wearable material. You cannot simply look at a bearing and determine how much more "meat" there is. The shell's structural component is steel. The babbit (dissimilar wear surface) is lead/copper or tin/aluminum. The crank is steel. Once the very thin babbit layers wear down, these similar metals weld together and you get a spun bearing. Many bearings spin well before that while the crank is riding on the exposed copper. Engines fail due to one failed bearing. They don't all seize up at once. Failed engines usually have seven journals that look exactly like the OP's, except for one cylinder (or main) which spun and shows visible copper or steel.

It has been said hundreds of times over...You Can't know when your bearings are going to fail. You can't look at a used bearing and say "yep, that one was only good for another 4,296 miles"... All you can do is go through with the service and move on with the peace of mind. The general consensus as to why some fail early and some later is unfavorable vs favorable tolerance stacking.

Yes, I'm a believer because I run a shop and have a finger on the pulse of the issue. And that's not because I get money to replace abnormally worn bearings, but because I see the huge number of failures which are astronomically out of normal proportion. It's a thing. It's not normal. Owners can believe it or not, it doesn't matter to us shops. Consider how many failures have been averted by owners changing their bearings? I guarantee you that if nobody ever did another bearing change ever, then we'd stay just as busy selling more replacement engines instead.*



FYI, this engine was obviously built with a favorable tolerance stack. This is how bearings should look coming out of an S65 (of any mileage):"""

[Headhunter.M3]

Originally Posted by M3Post

Please read the information at the link below. Much if not all the information you seek is chronicled therein.

Official S65 Bearing Specification/Clearance Wiki

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838

Ok I skimmed this..

So basically the newer models are ok or atleast more reliable? 2011+?

Any using a 0w40,5w40,5w30 oil etc may be helpful also?

[wfdeacon88]

you have a lot of information previously discussed that answers your questions. I'd start reading what has already been covered

[Headhunter.M3]

Originally Posted by wfdeacon88

you have a lot of information previously discussed that answers your questions. I'd start reading what has already been covered

Sorry i am new to the forum. Tough to find the right info. Seems divided. Some people show that they have had problems and then others have never replaced bearings yet have high mileage. It is tough to come to a conclusion.

[Headhunter.M3]

Originally Posted by wfdeacon88

you have a lot of information previously discussed that answers your questions. I'd start reading what has already been covered

I am just going to get an extended warranty. Seems like the best option to me at this point rather then replacing the bearings as some people have issues and some do not.

[Headhunter.M3]

Originally Posted by M3Post

5W30 is too thin IMO. The S65 is designed for 10W60. Many folks run 0W40 to mitigate bearing wear especially at start up in cold temps.

I recently switched to 5W50 Mobil 1. My car is a 2008 still on the original rod bearings with 102,000 miles and a Harrop supercharger since 65K miles.

It is not true IMO that the newer models are more reliable. It is true that BMW changed the rod bearing material (made it harder) but BMW did NOT widen the clearance.

This is a very helpful post. Thank you very much. 5w50 is what is used in the gt350 shelbys right? Feel any difference in power or smoothness? I will look into that. I use the Ceratec liqui moly too. Seems to help. I use it in all my cars. I t really does make my cars quieter. Especially at idle.

[Headhunter.M3]

Originally Posted by M3Post

5W30 is too thin IMO. The S65 is designed for 10W60. Many folks run 0W40 to mitigate bearing wear especially at start up in cold temps.

I recently switched to 5W50 Mobil 1. My car is a 2008 still on the original rod bearings with 102,000 miles and a Harrop supercharger since 65K miles.

It is not true IMO that the newer models are more reliable. It is true that BMW changed the rod bearing material (made it harder) but BMW did NOT widen the clearance.

102k miles with a supercharger and no rod bearing issues... to me this seems like not every s65 motor is defective right? Lol i mean you have had to beat on that thing and if they were going to go bad I think you would have known by now right?? Lol

I would be scared to run 0w40 in my old RS4 with the 4.2 i used 0w40 a few times and oil temps would get up to 250-260 in daily driving!