Best retrofit for M3 brakes?

[SilverSlug]

The calculator is super cool, thank you for posting this.

[edsonreds]

Hi all! Still evaluating the Ghibli´s front 6 piston calipers. Some doubts, may be who already did this kit can help us out.

Maserati Ghibli and Alfas caliper are kind of the same piston area (plus minus certain tolerances), buy what distinguishes those calipers is the postition where they are mounted. Let me explain.

Alfas are mounted at around 2 o'clock unlike Ghiblis that are placed at 10 o'clock. Given that brembo calipers are directional it would make sense to use the Alfas calipers or make the following to the Ghiblis:

Alternative A) change caliper positions, install the originally right, to the left of the M3. This would not be accordance with piston design.

Alternative B) install the caliper in the intended size but re locate the bleeding screws and the hard line (switching them). In this way the brembos will still be directional.

Of course the simplest answer would be to buy the Alfas...

But... has anyone fitted the Ghiblis? Would you share what was done?

Regards,

[jp1984]

Originally Posted by Power6

Hi BMW people, this is non-sequitar I'm just a random nobody with a Volvo but these forums have been so helpful when researching calipers, I wanted to give back!

I created a calculator that can get you close to proper sizing of brakes if you are going to mix and match your own components. Should save one a lot of time in looking at different setups quickly, or checking on the design of a brake kit, there are plenty of badly engineered kits out there.

It's here: https://upbrakes.com/upgrade_advisor

Should be pretty straightforward, you need to know a little info; rotor size, piston sizes and the pad depth. That gets you very close to reality. Common Brembo sizes are known depth pads, the 6 piston OEM type Brembos you guys are usually looking at like D1116 is 55mm, or D1666 is 65mm. Others you may have to measure yourself. Pad depth is often overlooked as a factor but it matters. If rotor size and piston sizes are accounted for. You can often change say the 55mm pad out for a 65mm annulus if you can fit it, or vice versa, to bring torque output into line.

The calculator outputs and compares individual axle torque output. Matching by simple bias is an outdated way to design. The electronic brake features are way beyond just ABS and all depend on a particular torque output for a given pressure input at each corner within reason for systems that are designed to still work with variable parts and maintenance. All the modern era BMWs using the Mk60 and newer ABS hardware, they use EBD to proportion. There is a base curve but each wheel is being monitored for slip conditions and adjusted accordingly on 4 channels, for best dynamic performance, long before any ABS intervention. Matching torque output keeps it all working well.

Generally you want to size up the rotor, size down the piston area and strike the right balance to match by carefully choosing the specifics. The side effect is reduced pedal travel and better feel. As cars go electro-hydraulic "brake-by-wire" you can't change the pedal feel, but matching the pressure/torque output becomes even more critical as the electronic brake unit now performs 100% of the braking action.

Hope this is helpful to some peeps out there.

Thanks, this is cool, please stick around! I just like talking cars with folks, it doesnt really matter what kind, especially on technical subjects! I am sure there are more users like me!

[Power6]

Originally Posted by SilverSlug

The calculator is super cool, thank you for posting this.

Originally Posted by jp1984

Thanks, this is cool, please stick around! I just like talking cars with folks, it doesnt really matter what kind, especially on technical subjects! I am sure there are more users like me!

Glad to help! I meant to subscribe to the thread but didn't get any notifications. I'm psyched this stuff I put together for myself can be useful.

I have another tool, it may be more likely to ruffle some feathers: https://upbrakes.com/upgrade_advisor_2 it's a farily simple calculator to estimate front rotor temps in single stop scenarios from various speeds. It just pisses me off the marketing obsession with "lightweight" rotors and consumers buy into it, when heat capacity is a real thing, needs to be balanced for the application.

Originally Posted by edsonreds

Hi all! Still evaluating the Ghibli´s front 6 piston calipers. Some doubts, may be who already did this kit can help us out....Maserati Ghibli and Alfas caliper are kind of the same piston area (plus minus certain tolerances), buy what distinguishes those calipers is the postition where they are mounted. Let me explain...

The correct answer is (B), when you think about it spatially, the caliper bodies are always L or R bodies, the rotor passes the correct direction through them, no matter if the caliper is rotated to be in front or behind the axle or anywhere in between. The staggered pistons always need to be smallest piston "first" as you think of a point on the rotor passing through the caliper.

So you keep the bodies on their correct side, and change the crossover tubes and bleeders to match your orientation. Most Brembo calipers are symmetric that way. You only need to consider that there is likely a range of angles the bleeders work to properly let all air bubbles escape, which only Brembo knows, but as long as you are not far out of that range you are good.

FYI equal piston sizes can still have this issue. I'm using an Alfa 4 piston Brembo with all 40mm bores. The piston bores are offset in the body to address taper wear, I suspect a cheaper way to do that and it works on a 4 pot. You have to look at the bodies carefully to know L and R side.

I've considered the Ghibli and Alfa 6-pot calipers interchangeable but I haven't looked close. 6 piston, 165mm pad series, open window w/bridge bolt, typical design similar to CTS-V and others, but radial mount. 30/34/38 piston sizes. Swapping the crossover and bleeders ain't no thang.

[Grip Addict]

Originally Posted by W12x

I saw on Facebook that he was telling people to request refund via Paypal cause some issue with Slon?

Kind of glad I decided to get a set of StopTech instead...

Heads up, I saw another group buy that went shitty.

A carbon fiber drive shaft GB. Another case of this is such a great product, great opportunity, you have to join, only X spots yada yada, and now it's the complete 180, this is a crap product, don't trust it, yada yada.

Not posting this to poke a finger at GB guy, but this is the second time in 6 months, I suggest everyone really evaluate if some random company making some random part is worth the risk.

For every great Mjunkee there will be some horrible experiences out there.

[Power6]

Interesting stuff my BMW brothers and sisters. It seems you have a thriving market in these "group buys" but it doesn't always work out.

I've had some thought about this as a business model. If a vendor can verify demand, get commitments up front, and make stuff in batches, it reduces their risk of investment, while it also allows parts to be made that wouldn't otherwise be offered anywhere else. It can be the proverbial Win-Win for the mfr and consumer. In a more traditional model, vendor/mfr has to do their best guess at demand for a part, then put resources and time into engineering it, then invest in producing it, testing it, without any promise of a return at all, and hope it will sell.

I'm of two minds about the situation. If you as a vendor need to develop a part to offer it, and there is a risk it won't work out, is it responsible to sign people up and make promises? I don't know. Risk is for the investor, making customers investors with risk of the product not performing, not sure if the payoff is worth it for that customer.

Personally I could never promise something I am not sure I can deliver. That may be a flaw in my character or a good thing.

[Throatpunch]

Originally Posted by Grip Addict

Heads up, I saw another group buy that went shitty.

A carbon fiber drive shaft GB. Another case of this is such a great product, great opportunity, you have to join, only X spots yada yada, and now it's the complete 180, this is a crap product, don't trust it, yada yada.

Not posting this to poke a finger at GB guy, but this is the second time in 6 months, I suggest everyone really evaluate if some random company making some random part is worth the risk.

For every great Mjunkee there will be some horrible experiences out there.

Thats why we should back the businesses with enough of a business reputation and diversification of product to back up their worth.

[TrackPit]

Originally Posted by Power6

Interesting stuff my BMW brothers and sisters. It seems you have a thriving market in these "group buys" but it doesn't always work out.

I've had some thought about this as a business model. If a vendor can verify demand, get commitments up front, and make stuff in batches, it reduces their risk of investment, while it also allows parts to be made that wouldn't otherwise be offered anywhere else. It can be the proverbial Win-Win for the mfr and consumer. In a more traditional model, vendor/mfr has to do their best guess at demand for a part, then put resources and time into engineering it, then invest in producing it, testing it, without any promise of a return at all, and hope it will sell.

I'm of two minds about the situation. If you as a vendor need to develop a part to offer it, and there is a risk it won't work out, is it responsible to sign people up and make promises? I don't know. Risk is for the investor, making customers investors with risk of the product not performing, not sure if the payoff is worth it for that customer.

Personally I could never promise something I am not sure I can deliver. That may be a flaw in my character or a good thing.

Meh, I know the guy he is talking about.

He spams his group buys across every BMW Facebook group. Every group buy is like he found gold, but then backtracks in a few situations. He has only had so many group buys, having 2 in 6 months has to be a 10% failure rate or something.

[Rino924]

Anyone running 4 pot's up front?

For reference:

https://freakyparts.co.uk/collection...-big-brake-kit

[Power6]

Originally Posted by Rino924

Anyone running 4 pot's up front?

For reference:

https://freakyparts.co.uk/collection...-big-brake-kit

I tell you I have a set of these calipers for development. I can't see how there is a satisfactory fit on a 360x30 rotor. 360 may be an ok fit, largest factory size in the Megane RS Trophy is 355x28, but there are a number of 360mm rotor upgrades for the 340 and 350 rotors on that car. The clearance to the rotor may be below Brembo specs though, otherwise the pads would overhang the rotor edge on top.

The bigger problem is the rotor face clearance, what I call the "rotor stops" are 32mm wide as the caliper is designed for 28mm wide rotors. On a 30mm rotor you got just 1mm of clearance to the rotor passing through. That may be OK in practice, presumably some folks are running the set up. Too close for my comfort...just a bit of tolerance variation from the brackets, a little bit of play in wheel bearings over time and maybe you start grinding on the caliper. We can't know Brembo's specs for OEM stuff, their racing guide specifies min 2mm clearance on all sides to the caliper body. The fix would be to have the caliper machined for more rotor clearance, but that disturbs the cost effectiveness of the upgrade...

This is the reason why I ended up using an Alfa Brembo in my Volvo upgrade kit. The caliper body has clearance for a 30mm wide rotor. Well that's one reason, also the braced design will be stiffer than the open window design, at the cost of removing the caliper for pad swaps of course, but who is doing pit stops with little street brakes, I'd rather have better brake feel.

Not here to crap on the party, just sharing information if it's helpful.

[Melbourn3]

I'm pretty happy with my F/R 380MM upgraded BBK kit from Slon, they weren't like anyone talked about. Always replied and gave updates with no BS, even if they were late. Pretty good if you ask me.

[Rino924]

Just trying to plan out what I would like to do in the future. Using the stock rotor would be ideal. I don't really plan to track and if I do it would only be a one time thing. I don't have the time to track like I did my old Hondas several years ago.

Would just be fore aesthetics and convenience. The improvement in performance is also nice but I would just run normal street pads.

[woodchuck072]

Originally Posted by Rino924

Anyone running 4 pot's up front?

For reference:

https://freakyparts.co.uk/collection...-big-brake-kit

I have this kit. You will be okay if aesthetics is what you are going for.
OEM rotors and OEM(STI/EVO) brembo pads for daily driving and the occasional spirited driving will hold up fine. I am possibly wrong on this but think the idea behind this kit is that you have more pistons to dissipate heat?

In my experience with this kit (and limited knowledge on brakes ), it seems that there are no gains in the stopping/braking power department with OEM(STI/EVO) brembo pads and OEM rotors. Upgrading pads, rotors and brake fluid gives you the performance you are looking for but the same results can be achieved without the kit. Theoretically you might be out on the track longer than the oem 2 pots, but I have not tested that theory.

In trying to push this kit to its limits, the advantages I've come a cross is the ease of changing pads and the reduced cost of pads.
Changing out track pads for daily driver pads is something I do since my M3 is dual purpose. In terms of cost of pads, I have found the pads from PMU, Endless, and CSG are cheaper than the OEM BMW shape. These "advantages" I experienced might not even be a blip on everyone's radar and that's cool too.

I know this kit gets some flack as a retrofit option and I'm in no way saying this is the best option out there (nor do I have the authority to), but on paper this kit has some potential. Potentially good? Potentially bad? I don't know for sure. What I do know is that it will not perform like a proper upgrade kit from alcon, brembo, stoptech, etc...thats a whole different price point and level of expectation.

[Rino924]

I had these on my Sti obviously as OEM and they seemed totally fine. My Porsche had Brembos as well so I've just been used to them from pad changes, etc.

Would you mind posting up a pic to see how they look behind the wheels? I know all we see are the monster 6 pots on here.

[woodchuck072]

Sure thing.

[Rino924]

Love it, that looks great and they still have some size behind the wheel. Especially on 18's.

[jp1984]

Originally Posted by Melbourn3

I'm pretty happy with my F/R 380MM upgraded BBK kit from Slon, they weren't like anyone talked about. Always replied and gave updates with no BS, even if they were late. Pretty good if you ask me.

I am thinking of getting the calipers to fit to my oem rotors discs. I know your are a little bigger but do you think that is a worth while upgrade while keeping everything else OEM? (FCPEuro warranty...)

[Melbourn3]

Originally Posted by jp1984

I am thinking of getting the calipers to fit to my oem rotors discs. I know your are a little bigger but do you think that is a worth while upgrade while keeping everything else OEM? (FCPEuro warranty...)

In my scenario yes, I don't drive the car often and I love the 380mm for the curb appeal. Sexy? Yes. Unnecessary? Yes. The rotors from Slon arent too expensive to change vs OEM so I decided to go with the 380's. If you drive often and use the lifetime replacement from FCP I would say do that.

[Accel Junky]

Does anyone have the weight on the rear F80 caliper and rear F80 rotor? I'm wondering if there is any weight savings vs running the OEM rear caliper/rotor.

[sunny]

Originally Posted by woodchuck072

I have this kit. You will be okay if aesthetics is what you are going for.
OEM rotors and OEM(STI/EVO) brembo pads for daily driving and the occasional spirited driving will hold up fine. I am possibly wrong on this but think the idea behind this kit is that you have more pistons to dissipate heat?

In my experience with this kit (and limited knowledge on brakes ), it seems that there are no gains in the stopping/braking power department with OEM(STI/EVO) brembo pads and OEM rotors. Upgrading pads, rotors and brake fluid gives you the performance you are looking for but the same results can be achieved without the kit. Theoretically you might be out on the track longer than the oem 2 pots, but I have not tested that theory.

In trying to push this kit to its limits, the advantages I've come a cross is the ease of changing pads and the reduced cost of pads.
Changing out track pads for daily driver pads is something I do since my M3 is dual purpose. In terms of cost of pads, I have found the pads from PMU, Endless, and CSG are cheaper than the OEM BMW shape. These "advantages" I experienced might not even be a blip on everyone's radar and that's cool too.

I know this kit gets some flack as a retrofit option and I'm in no way saying this is the best option out there (nor do I have the authority to), but on paper this kit has some potential. Potentially good? Potentially bad? I don't know for sure. What I do know is that it will not perform like a proper upgrade kit from alcon, brembo, stoptech, etc...thats a whole different price point and level of expectation.

How long did it take for you to receive the brake kit you ordered?
Thanks.

[woodchuck072]

Originally Posted by sunny

How long did it take for you to receive the brake kit you ordered?
Thanks.

I got mine like next day but I'm not the best example for that since Buildjournal is local to me. My suggestion is to be on their notification for list when its in stock. From there it should be pretty standard for ship times to you.

Sorry if this is no help.

[rod.bearings]

Been almost a year since I installed these. Once the pads were bedding in the brake feels good. I'll prob install my stainless lines with rb600 this year.

Also the pad sweep isn't the best with c63 pads. I spoke to MLT engineering and he said the calipers can accept different pad profiles from GTRs, SRT8 JEEP, CAMARO ZL1, CTVS, Challengers. Has anyone tried before I search them all up lol