BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-31-2020, 08:28 AM   #45
ThunderMoose
Lieutenant Colonel
744
Rep
1,848
Posts

Drives: PY E46 M3 and SG E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e36clubracer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M43S7RO View Post
I removed my Apex M12 studs last weekend with the Amzn tool. Got both sides out at the rear in less than 5 min.
Were they red loctited in?

You use any heat?
Impact driver and the Amazon tool. I went through 2 defeated my studs that were red loctited in about 5 minutes per corner.
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2020, 07:49 PM   #46
M43S7RO
Major
501
Rep
1,054
Posts

Drives: Jerez Black E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Peoria, AZ

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e36clubracer View Post
Were they red loctited in?

You use any heat?
Been a while since installed so I dont recall if I used red or blue but no heat. I am in AZ so maybe that negates the need for it but as Thundermoose states, I used a Milwaukee mid torque impact wrench and zipped them out.
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2020, 09:58 PM   #47
e36clubracer
First Lieutenant
294
Rep
354
Posts

Drives: Ram 3500, f80M3, e36M3
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

I got one of those tools from the local oreilly auto parts. I also ordered another one of the the snap on collet tool too. I won't get a chance till next weekend to go at it again.

I also am using a Milwaukee 1/2 impact with four speeds. So hopefully with that combo everything will work out.
Appreciate 1
      06-06-2020, 07:12 PM   #48
e36clubracer
First Lieutenant
294
Rep
354
Posts

Drives: Ram 3500, f80M3, e36M3
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

I got the remaining studs out today. I found two more loose studs in the front drivers side. I’m glad I got these out. In the future if I do studs again I’ll likely replace the hubs with a press in option.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and help!
Appreciate 1
tsk941514.50
      06-17-2020, 09:25 AM   #49
JoeP
Enlisted Member
27
Rep
42
Posts

Drives: M2 Competition
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Kansas City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
... I would use a propane torch and heat the area for a couple minutes at least. And you should have the brake rotor off so you can heat the hub face as well as the base of the stud. It's very hard to heat a hub face if the rotor is on.
This. Use a simple propane torch like the handheld ones you can get from the hardware store and heat the base up where it threads into the hub. Use the double nut method and you will be surprised how easily it comes off. You shouldn't need a ton of heat (no need to get it glowing or anything). I used to just apply light pressure while heating and it would usually start to turn for removal.
Appreciate 0
      06-18-2020, 04:11 AM   #50
romero1990
Lieutenant
United_States
173
Rep
584
Posts

Drives: E92 M3, F25 X3
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2017 X3  [0.00]
2009 M3  [0.00]
which tool did you end up using? I got 4 stuck studs to get rid off. wanted to find a known working tool. thanks
Appreciate 0
      06-22-2020, 06:18 PM   #51
e36clubracer
First Lieutenant
294
Rep
354
Posts

Drives: Ram 3500, f80M3, e36M3
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by romero1990 View Post
which tool did you end up using? I got 4 stuck studs to get rid off. wanted to find a known working tool. thanks
This is what I used - https://shop.snapon.com/product/Stud...ver/MSK-M1215R

I had to buy two of them because they got beat up from using the impact to tighten and loosen. That should work as long as your threads are still good.
Appreciate 1
      06-23-2020, 09:23 AM   #52
dogbone
Colonel
dogbone's Avatar
5303
Rep
2,799
Posts

Drives: '09 E90 M3 - IB
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 93 million miles from the Sun

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW E92 M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW E90 M3  [0.00]
hehe at the risk of sounding like a broken record-----the Amazon tool linked earlier in the thread has pulled over 100 studs without issue.....yes, the threads get ruined, but I'll say it again-----when I pull a wheel stud, I ain't never putting it back in! I always put a new one in.

Last edited by dogbone; 06-23-2020 at 10:01 AM..
Appreciate 2
rhyary1557.00
fanatic11018.50
      06-23-2020, 12:44 PM   #53
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
hehe at the risk of sounding like a broken record-----the Amazon tool linked earlier in the thread has pulled over 100 studs without issue.....yes, the threads get ruined, but I'll say it again-----when I pull a wheel stud, I ain't never putting it back in! I always put a new one in.
I purchased a stud puller like yours and it has served me well. I believe I did so based on your recommendation years ago. Thanks!
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M
Appreciate 0
      06-23-2020, 01:05 PM   #54
MaximusB
Major
1391
Rep
1,288
Posts

Drives: 13 Frozen White E92
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Vancouver

iTrader: (0)

I was about to reply to this post last night.

I also picked up the tool dogbone recommended and it worked flawlessly. Took off all 20 studs with ease. The first stud took me about 20 minutes, the other 19 took about 15 mins total. It took me a while to figure out how to release the stud from the tool once it is out
Appreciate 0
      06-23-2020, 01:20 PM   #55
dogbone
Colonel
dogbone's Avatar
5303
Rep
2,799
Posts

Drives: '09 E90 M3 - IB
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 93 million miles from the Sun

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW E92 M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW E90 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximusB View Post
I was about to reply to this post last night.

I also picked up the tool dogbone recommended and it worked flawlessly. Took off all 20 studs with ease. The first stud took me about 20 minutes, the other 19 took about 15 mins total. It took me a while to figure out how to release the stud from the tool once it is out
haha yes! It isn't clear how to release the stud from the tool.

For anyone curious, the tool tightens onto the stud when the impact gun is reversing the stud out. So, to get the tool to loosen off the stud, you need to get a pipe wrench or locking hand vice and hold the outer shell in place. Then you need to put the impact gun into clockwise (righty-tighty) mode and spin the tool enough to get it to release the stud. Of course, it feels counterintuitive to loosen the tool off the removed stud by putting the impact gun in clockwise mode, but that's what you gotta do.
Appreciate 0
      06-23-2020, 03:29 PM   #56
MaximusB
Major
1391
Rep
1,288
Posts

Drives: 13 Frozen White E92
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Vancouver

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
haha yes! It isn't clear how to release the stud from the tool.

For anyone curious, the tool tightens onto the stud when the impact gun is reversing the stud out. So, to get the tool to loosen off the stud, you need to get a pipe wrench or locking hand vice and hold the outer shell in place. Then you need to put the impact gun into clockwise (righty-tighty) mode and spin the tool enough to get it to release the stud. Of course, it feels counterintuitive to loosen the tool off the removed stud by putting the impact gun in clockwise mode, but that's what you gotta do.
haha yeah. At first I couldn't get it to release the stud with a pipe wrench. Then I tried a vice grip on the stud, and no luck. Finally I just put a lug nut on the end of the stud and held it with a wrench. The rest was easy peasy once I figured it out.
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2020, 03:29 PM   #57
MPower7
First Lieutenant
MPower7's Avatar
89
Rep
363
Posts

Drives: 11' e92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SF

iTrader: (1)

I have APEX studs that came with red locktight so that's what I used. I have an impact, so I guess we will buy the Amazon tool and see what happens. Would prefer not to have to take the calipers and rotors off.
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2020, 04:54 PM   #58
MaximusB
Major
1391
Rep
1,288
Posts

Drives: 13 Frozen White E92
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Vancouver

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower7 View Post
I have APEX studs that came with red locktight so that's what I used. I have an impact, so I guess we will buy the Amazon tool and see what happens. Would prefer not to have to take the calipers and rotors off.
This tool with take off the studs no problem. I had Apex studs installed with red loctite as directed.
Appreciate 0
      01-02-2021, 08:34 PM   #59
fanatic1
Captain
fanatic1's Avatar
United_States
1019
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4 CS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Encinitas/San Diego

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2019 M4CS  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
All the wheels I've used are hub-centric.

I'm telling ya----there's just something about our platform once you get enough power, grip, aero, braking and reduce the lap times........something is up.

Let me tell you this story: My friend and I have the same car---E90 M3. Same suspension. Same wheel widths---10.5" square. Same tires---Pirelli DH 305. Same rear wing. Very similar front aero. Both cars supercharged. We used to have the same AP brakes until I moved to Essex AP. Same brake pads. These two cars are very similar. The biggest difference is that my car is gutted and caged and his is not.....just a light stripping. He uses different studs and nuts than me. He uses a different torque wrench than me. And we use different alignment shops with slightly different settings.

In early 2019, we were at the same track event at Chuckwalla. During that event, we both broke studs on the same corner of the car---front driver side. Chuckwalla has a banked bowl that is particularly punishing to the front driver side. I mean.....c'mon....we both broke studs on the same corner of the cars at the same event......

And for me, over 90% of the stud breaks are exactly the same----they break inside the hub, which is exactly what kind of break he had.

And my stud breaks have occurred with different brands of studs. And they've broken regardless of whether it was me installing them or a shop.

Pleeeeeeeease don't tell me it's just simple clamping force and that we're doing something wrong. I'm not a race team mercilessly gunning nuts on and off while everything is molten hot in an endurance race......Something is up.

Since I put the 14mm threaded studs in the front, I've had zero problems. I'm really looking forward to the 14mm press-ins now.
Chuckwalla ate another stud today. Right rear while changing wheels, but it was already gone, maybe 20 pounds of torque before it let loose. MSI studs about 16 months old. Had that replacement with me, but no way to remove the broken stud.

Hearing you talk about breaking these off at the hub, hoping I can get this one out

Thanks for the super helpful information guys.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2021, 08:46 AM   #60
dogbone
Colonel
dogbone's Avatar
5303
Rep
2,799
Posts

Drives: '09 E90 M3 - IB
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 93 million miles from the Sun

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW E92 M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW E90 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatic1 View Post
Chuckwalla ate another stud today. Right rear while changing wheels, but it was already gone, maybe 20 pounds of torque before it let loose. MSI studs about 16 months old. Had that replacement with me, but no way to remove the broken stud.

Hearing you talk about breaking these off at the hub, hoping I can get this one out

Thanks for the super helpful information guys.
Sorry to hear you had the broken stud. Your break shown in that photo is exactly the same as how mine would break.

Yeah....getting that broken piece out of the hub is painful. I got decent at removing it and sometimes was able to remove it at the track, but there were times I could not get it out and it ruined track days. I had a couple that even a shop could not remove and I had to replace the hub. Most of my breaks were on the front. It got to the point that I kept spare front hubs in the trailer and would simply replace the whole front hub to salvage the day and deal with the broken piece later. Replacing a front hub is not hard once you remove the entire brake system. It’s just four bolts—-much easier than using a Dremel to carefully cut a notch into the the stud while not damaging the hub threads. And then using a propane torch hoping to break the loctite. And then trying to use a screwdriver in the notch I had cut to rotate the broken piece out. It worked sometimes but not all the time.

Since you are tracking and breaking studs, I highly recommend going to 14mm press-in. The way the stress is distributed is fundamentally different than a threaded stud. With a press-in, there are no threads to reduce shank thickness inside the hub and there’s no thread stress/tension inside the hub. And the 14 mm press-in stud is actually 14.7mm of steel inside the hub flange compared to a shank thickness of 10.5mm of steel on a threaded 12mm stud (when you account for the shank thickness lost due to the threads). You’re working with 40% more steel at what clearly is a high stress spot. That is a MASSIVE difference in shank thickness.

My friend who I referenced in the story above has since purchased the Core4 14mm press-in solution for all four corners as well.

The irony is that I believe the Core4 14mm press-in is the best solution out there for our platform, but it’s actually less expensive than going with F80 M3 threaded 14mm hubs.

So—-were you able to set a new personal best with the new pavement at Chuckwalla before you broke the stud? Many people at our event in November was crushing their old times. I ran both directions that weekend and set new PBs in both directions.
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2021, 11:48 AM   #61
fanatic1
Captain
fanatic1's Avatar
United_States
1019
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4 CS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Encinitas/San Diego

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2019 M4CS  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
Sorry to hear you had the broken stud. Your break shown in that photo is exactly the same as how mine would break.

Yeah....getting that broken piece out of the hub is painful. I got decent at removing it and sometimes was able to remove it at the track, but there were times I could not get it out and it ruined track days. I had a couple that even a shop could not remove and I had to replace the hub. Most of my breaks were on the front. It got to the point that I kept spare front hubs in the trailer and would simply replace the whole front hub to salvage the day and deal with the broken piece later. Replacing a front hub is not hard once you remove the entire brake system. It’s just four bolts—-much easier than using a Dremel to carefully cut a notch into the the stud while not damaging the hub threads. And then using a propane torch hoping to break the loctite. And then trying to use a screwdriver in the notch I had cut to rotate the broken piece out. It worked sometimes but not all the time.

Since you are tracking and breaking studs, I highly recommend going to 14mm press-in. The way the stress is distributed is fundamentally different than a threaded stud. With a press-in, there are no threads to reduce shank thickness inside the hub and there’s no thread stress/tension inside the hub. And the 14 mm press-in stud is actually 14.7mm of steel inside the hub flange compared to a shank thickness of 10.5mm of steel on a threaded 12mm stud (when you account for the shank thickness lost due to the threads). You’re working with 40% more steel at what clearly is a high stress spot. That is a MASSIVE difference in shank thickness.

My friend who I referenced in the story above has since purchased the Core4 14mm press-in solution for all four corners as well.

The irony is that I believe the Core4 14mm press-in is the best solution out there for our platform, but it’s actually less expensive than going with F80 M3 threaded 14mm hubs.

So—-were you able to set a new personal best with the new pavement at Chuckwalla before you broke the stud? Many people at our event in November was crushing their old times. I ran both directions that weekend and set new PBs in both directions.
Thanks a ton Dogbone and Core4 looks like a great solution. Thought the MSI Studs and M14 size (F82j would have a longer life than 16 months, but maybe operator error played a role - using impact gun to remove and install, but install to about 60 ft lbs, then torque wrench to recommended 85 ft lbs. There’s always that couple times at the shop where they over torqued even after instructions.

Luckily, didn’t use Loctite, so hoping to get this out myself. It looks like you didn’t drill into the stud, but used a dremel and screwdriver? Any reason not to drill into the broken stud?

Love the new surface at Chuck, just amazing. PB‘s are still above 2:00 as it’s about my fifth or sixth time at this track (slow learner), but still stoked.
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2021, 12:04 PM   #62
macdude357
Captain
macdude357's Avatar
467
Rep
818
Posts

Drives: IB E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (7)

Last time I broke a stud, I just drilled into the remaining stud and it ended up loosening up and screwed out the back of the hub. You could also use a left-hand drill bit and maybe get it to unscrew out the front as well. Mine had red loctite on them.
Appreciate 1
fanatic11018.50
      01-03-2021, 12:22 PM   #63
sc_tr0jan_m3
Lieutenant Colonel
sc_tr0jan_m3's Avatar
515
Rep
1,729
Posts

Drives: 2018 Grigio Telesto F80 M3 DCT
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

i'm due to replace my studs as part of my regular swaps... just ordered up the stud remover tool. thanks dogbone
__________________


2018 Grigio Telesto F80 M3 DCT | :: Bone Stock ::
2004 Titanium Silver E46 M3 6 Speed | :: Track Car ::
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2021, 02:14 PM   #64
dogbone
Colonel
dogbone's Avatar
5303
Rep
2,799
Posts

Drives: '09 E90 M3 - IB
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 93 million miles from the Sun

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW E92 M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW E90 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatic1 View Post
Thanks a ton Dogbone and Core4 looks like a great solution. Thought the MSI Studs and M14 size (F82j would have a longer life than 16 months, but maybe operator error played a role - using impact gun to remove and install, but install to about 60 ft lbs, then torque wrench to recommended 85 ft lbs. There’s always that couple times at the shop where they over torqued even after instructions.

Luckily, didn’t use Loctite, so hoping to get this out myself. It looks like you didn’t drill into the stud, but used a dremel and screwdriver? Any reason not to drill into the broken stud?

Love the new surface at Chuck, just amazing. PB‘s are still above 2:00 as it’s about my fifth or sixth time at this track (slow learner), but still stoked.
No loctite? Huh. Well I guess it should come out easier then. (My understanding was that you should at least use a dot of blue loctite. Red is verrrry difficult to break when you’re fighting a broken stud.)

I was using 12.9 steel studs which is harder than the regular 10.9 steel used in most studs. It’s not so easy to drill.......sigh......I really hope those days are behind me. 10 days in of hard tracking on the Core4 14mm setup and all is good.
Appreciate 1
fanatic11018.50
      01-03-2021, 02:56 PM   #65
derbo
Derbo Tuning
derbo's Avatar
3592
Rep
3,012
Posts

Drives: BMW M3
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (2)

What is the thought between M14 screw-in studs vs M12 Pressed in?
__________________
IG:ruhrohz_m3
Journal: Link
E9x ZCP Suspension Info: Link
Track Chat Discord: https://discord.gg/VsKbTyqBVj
SF Bay Area: DM For coding services
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2021, 04:09 PM   #66
dogbone
Colonel
dogbone's Avatar
5303
Rep
2,799
Posts

Drives: '09 E90 M3 - IB
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 93 million miles from the Sun

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW E92 M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW E90 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by derbo View Post
What is the thought between M14 screw-in studs vs M12 Pressed in?
The owner of Core4 believes that the 12mm press-in is a perfectly fine solution for our platform. He points to a bunch of endurance race cars, including a heavy GTR that run his 12mm press-ins without issue.

I was the one that requested that he make a 14mm press-in setup for our platform. He did the homework and created a 14mm setup.

The cost difference between the 14mm and 12mm press-in solutions is $250 for all four corners including the MSI studs. To me, it seems worth the few extra bucks to have the 14mm.

14mm threaded is ok. I ran that for a year in the front without problems. We drilled out the fronts with the Rogue Engineering jig kit. But if you’re really thinking about going to 14mm all the way around, the 14mm press-in option is cheaper than the F80 M3 hubs. Better and cheaper! What’s not to like?? geez I sound like a salesman.....wish I made a commission!!
Appreciate 1
fanatic11018.50
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:55 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST