Wheel Stud Removal

[derbo]

Originally Posted by dogbone

The owner of Core4 believes that the 12mm press-in is a perfectly fine solution for our platform. He points to a bunch of endurance race cars, including a heavy GTR that run his 12mm press-ins without issue.

I was the one that requested that he make a 14mm press-in setup for our platform. He did the homework and created a 14mm setup.

The cost difference between the 14mm and 12mm press-in solutions is $250 for all four corners including the MSI studs. To me, it seems worth the few extra bucks to have the 14mm.

14mm threaded is ok. I ran that for a year in the front without problems. We drilled out the fronts with the Rogue Engineering jig kit. But if you’re really thinking about going to 14mm all the way around, the 14mm press-in option is cheaper than the F80 M3 hubs. Better and cheaper! What’s not to like?? geez I sound like a salesman.....wish I made a commission!!

Thanks man!

Is the M14 x1.25 or x1.50?

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by derbo

Thanks man!

Is the M14 x1.25 or x1.50?

1.5

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by derbo

Thanks man!

Is the M14 x1.25 or x1.50?

As rhyary responded, 1.50

As a reminder: the lug nuts are 19mm. They fit in all our favorite wheels without issue. I bought several of this non-marring 19mm socket. They worked out nicely. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B017MXJHME/

Core4 recommended torquing them to at least 110 ft lbs.

[gills]

Originally Posted by dogbone

The owner of Core4 believes that the 12mm press-in is a perfectly fine solution for our platform. He points to a bunch of endurance race cars, including a heavy GTR that run his 12mm press-ins without issue.
............

geez I sound like a salesman.....wish I made a commission!!

LOL, thanks Dogbone!! I swear I'm not paying this guy

You can also include some of the fastest club racing corvettes in the country running 12mm studs. Sure those are fairly light, but they can generate a ton of cornering force. AND, BMW supplies their GT4 car from the factory with what are essentially 12mm studs.

But, he's not wrong. Due to their strength classification, 12mm MSI and ARP studs are capable of squeezing components together (preload) with tremendous force that is more than adequate. Where it becomes an issue is with the inconsistency of actually generating sufficient preload. There's high variability associated with the geometries and material interfaces of a "wheel joint." And the unintuitive thing about how bolts/studs operate is that the more they are squeezing/clamping, the less of the external forces they need to endure, and the more the clamped components do.

Setting preload becomes more critical on smaller diameter, higher grade/class fastener vs larger diameter lower/grade ones (common engineering design decision). I'm currently working on proprietary lug nuts that will ensure the right amount of preload is achieved much more consistently than anything else on the market at tightening torques everyone is used to, for both 12mm and 14mm sizes. In the near future, I will be very highly recommending the use of these lug nuts, especially with 12mm. Otherwise, following the guidelines in my tech sheet that I send with every order should be followed.

Originally Posted by fanatic1

Thanks a ton Dogbone and Core4 looks like a great solution. Thought the MSI Studs and M14 size (F82j would have a longer life than 16 months, but maybe operator error played a role - using impact gun to remove and install, but install to about 60 ft lbs, then torque wrench to recommended 85 ft lbs. There’s always that couple times at the shop where they over torqued even after instructions.

Luckily, didn’t use Loctite, so hoping to get this out myself. It looks like you didn’t drill into the stud, but used a dremel and screwdriver? Any reason not to drill into the broken stud?

Love the new surface at Chuck, just amazing. PB‘s are still above 2:00 as it’s about my fifth or sixth time at this track (slow learner), but still stoked.

The spot where your stud failed is very typical and the fracture face looks to be flat, also typical of a fatigue failure; the most common form of failure for wheel studs. Your intuition is correct that the crack was already there when you went to tighten. These cracks always initiate in the thread root/valley and will grow/propagate from in-service loads (bumps, g's, etc.) without you knowing until 1) they break in-service/on-track, 2) they break while tightening. It's not uncommon to have rust/oxidation form in these crack crevices just from duration of being there and being exposed to the environment. The only way to know if they're actually there prior to failing is with some form of crack penetrant testing.

It's also common to have at least 1 other stud on the same corner to have a crack crevice. Speaking of which, if you're willing to send all the studs from your right rear to me to analyze, that would be greatly appreciated! PM me if so.


That said, I can assure you that the chances of impact tightening causing this is unlikely. Quality, high strength wheel studs are very difficult to overwhelm under tightening, contrary to popular belief. This is why I always counter-argue the age old "don't touch your wheel/lug-nuts when the car is hot." It is more risky not checking if anything loosened and risking insufficient preload vs getting rotation on a lug nut when hot that actually brings back the preload lost due to thermal expansion effects. This is especially the case with new wheels. If a stud does break when tightening while hot, consider yourself lucky for finding the cracked stud prior to it letting go on track.

I also disagree heavily with MSI's recommended tightening torques for using his studs and lug nuts together and I have a conversation about it every time we chat (3-4 times/month). I believe his values are 70 lbs-ft for 12mm and 85 lbs-ft for 14mm. During initial use, these values are just ok, but with each subsequent tightening cycle, the sacrificial dry lubricant coating on his lug nuts loses considerable effect (happens more quickly if using more than one set of wheels) and then torquing to those levels becomes a game of chance on a race car. The strength advantage of MSI studs becomes pointless at those recommended tightening torques.

Hope that all makes sense.

-Tom

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by gills

LOL, thanks Dogbone!! I swear I'm not paying this guy

You can also include some of the fastest club racing corvettes in the country running 12mm studs. Sure those are fairly light, but they can generate a ton of cornering force. AND, BMW supplies their GT4 car from the factory with what are essentially 12mm studs.

But, he's not wrong. Due to their strength classification, 12mm MSI and ARP studs are capable of squeezing components together (preload) with tremendous force that is more than adequate. Where it becomes an issue is with the inconsistency of actually generating sufficient preload. There's high variability associated with the geometries and material interfaces of a "wheel joint." And the unintuitive thing about how bolts/studs operate is that the more they are squeezing/clamping, the less of the external forces they need to endure, and the more the clamped components do.

Setting preload becomes more critical on smaller diameter, higher grade/class fastener vs larger diameter lower/grade ones (common engineering design decision). I'm currently working on proprietary lug nuts that will ensure the right amount of preload is achieved much more consistently than anything else on the market at tightening torques everyone is used to, for both 12mm and 14mm sizes. In the near future, I will be very highly recommending the use of these lug nuts, especially with 12mm. Otherwise, following the guidelines in my tech sheet that I send with every order should be followed.





The spot where your stud failed is very typical and the fracture face looks to be flat, also typical of a fatigue failure; the most common form of failure for wheel studs. Your intuition is correct that the crack was already there when you went to tighten. These cracks always initiate in the thread root/valley and will grow/propagate from in-service loads (bumps, g's, etc.) without you knowing until 1) they break in-service/on-track, 2) they break while tightening. It's not uncommon to have rust/oxidation form in these crack crevices just from duration of being there and being exposed to the environment. The only way to know if they're actually there prior to failing is with some form of crack penetrant testing.

It's also common to have at least 1 other stud on the same corner to have a crack crevice. Speaking of which, if you're willing to send all the studs from your right rear to me to analyze, that would be greatly appreciated! PM me if so.


That said, I can assure you that the chances of impact tightening causing this is unlikely. Quality, high strength wheel studs are very difficult to overwhelm under tightening, contrary to popular belief. This is why I always counter-argue the age old "don't touch your wheel/lug-nuts when the car is hot." It is more risky not checking if anything loosened and risking insufficient preload vs getting rotation on a lug nut when hot that actually brings back the preload lost due to thermal expansion effects. This is especially the case with new wheels. If a stud does break when tightening while hot, consider yourself lucky for finding the cracked stud prior to it letting go on track.

I also disagree heavily with MSI's recommended tightening torques for using his studs and lug nuts together and I have a conversation about it every time we chat (3-4 times/month). I believe his values are 70 lbs-ft for 12mm and 85 lbs-ft for 14mm. During initial use, these values are just ok, but with each subsequent tightening cycle, the sacrificial dry lubricant coating on his lug nuts loses considerable effect (happens more quickly if using more than one set of wheels) and then torquing to those levels becomes a game of chance on a race car. The strength advantage of MSI studs becomes pointless at those recommended tightening torques.

Hope that all makes sense.

-Tom

Makes complete sense and if I am following you correctly, as the studs get used and worn, it’s OK to torque them beyond the recommended torque value, even preferred.

In my case, used three sets of wheels with these studs, two of them were brand new when first installed. While I’ve never checked torque values hot (good to know it’s not going to immediately explode), I’ve never found a loose lug nut and do check before every track day. Just thinking if 85 lbs-ft was not enough as the studs aged and helped create the stress riser.

PM sent and thanks for the thorough explanation

[rhyary]

The only downside to Tom's recommendations of 110 for 14mm is that my impact wrench can't loosen the 19mm lug. I have to loosen them with a breaker bar 1/2 a turn first while the car is still on the ground. I had to adjust my routine, but know it is second nature.

And I have a 18v monster.
.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The only downside to Tom's recommendations of 110 for 14mm is that my impact wrench can't loosen the 19mm lug. I have to loosen them with a breaker bar 1/2 a turn first while the car is still on the ground. I had to adjust my routine, but know it is second nature.

And I have a 18v monster.
.

Interesting. My Craftsman C3 battery powered impact gun pulls the 110 ft lbs nuts without issue.

You need a new impact gun man!!

[gills]

Originally Posted by fanatic1

Makes complete sense and if I am following you correctly, as the studs get used and worn, it’s OK to torque them beyond the recommended torque value, even preferred.

In my case, used three sets of wheels with these studs, two of them were brand new when first installed. While I’ve never checked torque values hot (good to know it’s not going to immediately explode), I’ve never found a loose lug nut and do check before every track day. Just thinking if 85 lbs-ft was not enough as the studs aged and helped create the stress riser.

PM sent and thanks for the thorough explanation

Not so much the studs. The lug nuts. More specifically the tapered seats that spin and seat against the aluminum wheel seats. The dry lubricant on that surface has the single greatest effect of how much preload is developed when tightening. If you're swapping wheels a lot, the dry lubricant on the lug nut is sacrificial to the surface it's tightening too. That's how moly dry film lubricants work. It always wears off with use and transfers to the opposing surface.

If you're always using the same wheels, it helps since the initially moly that's transferred remains and helps keep lubricating over time, or until they're cleaned heavily.

So as you're going through time changing, swapping, tightening, loosening, etc., the preload generated with 85 lbs-ft is nowhere near the same when the MSI lug nuts were brand new, and can vary by many thousands of pounds. And I mean many!

Originally Posted by rhyary

The only downside to Tom's recommendations of 110 for 14mm is that my impact wrench can't loosen the 19mm lug. I have to loosen them with a breaker bar 1/2 a turn first while the car is still on the ground. I had to adjust my routine, but know it is second nature.

And I have a 18v monster.

I was going to say exactly what Dogbone did haha! There's something definitely off with that gun. That should have no problem pulling off commercial truck lug nuts.


And dare I say it, 110 lbs-ft is actually on the low-end, but if I tell people to torque to 140 lbs-ft you are all going to think I'm nuts.

If you want, go do a little research yourselves on the torque used by other vehicles that come with M14 press-in studs from the factory that have similar performance, like S550 Mustang, Chevy Camaro, C8 Corvette, Nissan GTR NISMO model, etc.


And take a look here at ARP's torque chart and resultant preloads when using their "assembly lube" which gets applied on the threads and the underhead of the bolt/nut. Dry torque specifications would be even higher. Their wheel studs fall under the 190,000/200,000(psi) column, which is the same tensile strength as MSI studs.

https://arpinstructions.com/generaltorque.html

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The only downside to Tom's recommendations of 110 for 14mm is that my impact wrench can't loosen the 19mm lug. I have to loosen them with a breaker bar 1/2 a turn first while the car is still on the ground. I had to adjust my routine, but know it is second nature.

And I have a 18v monster.
.

something is wrong with your impact... maybe battery degeneration? not normal.

[roastbeef]

gills what is your typical service life recommendation? i'm looking at 14mm press-in studs. the forum consensus is about two years. is that a good rule of thumb?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

gills what is your typical service life recommendation? i'm looking at 14mm press-in studs. the forum consensus is about two years. is that a good rule of thumb?

Coterminous with the life of the hub?

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Coterminous with the life of the hub?

i guess that depends... are the hubs used for press-in studs only good for one use? i didn't think they were.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Interesting. My Craftsman C3 battery powered impact gun pulls the 110 ft lbs nuts without issue.

You need a new impact gun man!!

I don't charge the battery for a long time. I can try with a freshly charged battery to see if i need to be more diligent with charging

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i guess that depends... are the hubs used for press-in studs only good for one use? i didn't think they were.

No, you can remove the studs and replace pretty easily. I just meant, the studs should last close to the life of the hub.

[sc_tr0jan_m3]

Originally Posted by DRLane

No, you can remove the studs and replace pretty easily. I just meant, the studs should last close to the life of the hub.

Wow, so you're saying with push in studs, you don't have to do the regular annual or biannual replacements? Seems like a bold claim?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by sc_tr0jan_m3

Wow, so you're saying with push in studs, you don't have to do the regular annual or biannual replacements? Seems like a bold claim?

I'll 100% defer to Tom, but the rationale for required replacement is for thread ins only. The press fit were sustaining hours of endurance racing arguably applying more wear than even the most busy HPDE seasons.

That said, i think the heat from most endurance races 8-24 hr means the hubs don't last 40k miles.

EDIT

Found this from their website

"Because of the frequency of thread-in stud failures, many BMW owners have been led to believe that it is necessary to service wheel studs at an abnormal rate. Some recommendations as low as 10 hours of track time. STUDS SHOULD NOT NEED TO BE SERVICED BEFORE WHEEL BEARINGS ON A TRACK CAR . The only instance where this may be the case is when the studs are subjected to repeated time sensitive pit-stops with heavy impact equipment. Simple as that. A dual duty track/street car should be able to run the same high quality, high strength ARP or MSI wheel studs for years without worry or up until wheel bearings are serviced."

[gills]

You can change press-in studs a few times no problem. 3-4 times at least I'd say.

Service interval is obviously a touchy subject. ARP and MSI beat around the bush and will not give you an answer. I've tried.


So here is my experience; endurance teams typically time bearings out anywhere from 50-75 racing hours. Some may even go 100 hours or more on the rear. At which point, that's when things get changed out. An HPDE car can take a very long time to accumulate that many hours, which is why I believe many of the service interval suggestions are overkill.

But, it's the screw-in stud paranoia element that changes things. Like I mention in the quote from my website, I've seen recommendations as low as 10 hours, which is absurd. Pretty good business model too. It's all paranoia driven, and for good reason; they are simply more prone to breaking. Everyone just keeps repeating the same information about what and what not to do, yet problems still persist.

Go around the paddock and ask the Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, GTR, Z, S2000, 993 and older Porsche's, Subaru, EVO, etc. guys how often they change their wheels studs. Most are always running ARP, some on MSI studs, and most will tell you it's when they service the bearing/hub.

If the threads on the studs are good/clean/not-boogered, the lug nut threads are in good condition and no signs of galling of aluminum from the wheel on the tapered seat, and the wheel seats are smooth and free of raised edges/bumps, all mating surfaces monitored and cleaned, the studs will live a very long life.

[roastbeef]

gills great info in here, thanks.

the press-in m14 hubs on your site appear to be e9x m3 hubs machined to take a m14 press-in stud. is that accurate?

how much more money are the m4 hubs and what is the benefit (i presume its weight)? i'm curious on pricing for a complete set of m4 hubs with press-in m14 hardware.

[gills]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

gills great info in here, thanks.

the press-in m14 hubs on your site appear to be e9x m3 hubs machined to take a m14 press-in stud. is that accurate?

how much more money are the m4 hubs and what is the benefit (i presume its weight)? i'm curious on pricing for a complete set of m4 hubs with press-in m14 hardware.

Yes, the press-in M14 kit on the site is for E9x M3 front hubs and F8x M rear hubs. I don't use E9x M3 rear hubs for the 14mm upgrade because there isn't enough margin to take the larger diameter.

If you want to upgrade to F8xM front hubs, it's a decent price jump. Not listed on the site (yet). Only difference is weight. Bearings are the same size. PM me if you want more info.

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by dogbone

hehe at the risk of sounding like a broken record-----the Amazon tool linked earlier in the thread has pulled over 100 studs without issue.....yes, the threads get ruined, but I'll say it again-----when I pull a wheel stud, I ain't never putting it back in! I always put a new one in.

Buy this man a beer!

Took a chance this tool would fit 14mm studs for removal, even though it’s claim only goes to 12.5mm

Good Lord was that easy, thanks again dogbone

[derbo]

gills What are your thoughts on the lugnuts with a rotating ring/seat? I know they were designed for show folks to not scratch their wheels but it seems like that ring is made from Aluminum and that could possibly reduce galling?

[gills]

Originally Posted by derbo

gills What are your thoughts on the lugnuts with a rotating ring/seat? I know they were designed for show folks to not scratch their wheels but it seems like that ring is made from Aluminum and that could possibly reduce galling?

Great question and funny you mention the show stuff. That's just how they market them since it's a bigger market, and unfortunately their form factors and how they finish them is geared more for appearance. Especially the Project Kics, Project Mu, and Rays Engineering ones. The actual bodies are alloy steel still and there are other brands that use steel floating collars vs aluminum, which I prefer (steel collar).

BUT, to answer your question, they are fantastic. Their function in how they completely remove the tapered aluminum seat out of the equation when tightening simply cannot be matched by a standard lug nut. I used this lug nut in part of my testing and they were easily the best performing lug nut of the group over dozens, if not over 100 tightening cycles.


Take a look at OEM Porsche wheel bolts for instance. They use the same exact concept, and it's for a very good reason: https://www.suncoastparts.com/product/LUGNUT.html


I'm working on my own proprietary lug nuts with MSI that use this design that won't be all funky like the ones currently available. They will be available individually also, just like all of us who track/race regularly want.