E9x vs Kia stinger

[Bucki14]

In regards to the whole Kia argument...there's many reasons why I'm attracted to the many performance cars to date. The m3 particularly was its roots to motorsport and how the motor characteristics are similar to that of a F1 car. Some other cars I love and hope to own support this same philosophy..S2000, GT3, F430/458.

No matter how great a KIA is at performance it does nothing to me from an enthusiast perspective as wanting to own it. What does KIA represent in this realm, they have no history and for that reason I just could not see myself driving this car.

[jaehshim]

[davcrz5]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dre

Car manufacturer's are only required produce parts for cars up to 8 years. No manufacturer is going to produce parts for a 10 year old car.

I no this is an older post but I just had to weigh in on this, Dr Dre this statement is flat-out BS. Really no manufacturer it's going to produce parts for car that's 10 years old well that doesn't apply to Toyota, every domestic car manufacturer, Honda, Lexus, BMW Mercedes and the list goes on and on. Now your statement may be true for Kia/Hyundai and if that's the case then why offer a 10 year warranty your statements are contradicting themselves. And if Kia and Hyundai don't offer Parts after 10 years I wouldn't purchase any of their vehicles.

I'm bit of a neutral party here my current daily is 2011 Lexus ISF, that I purchased New back in Nov of 2010. I traded my 08' IS350 Fsport pkg in for 30k it was paid off. I used that 30k for down payment for My 62k ISF that I paid off in 2014. Just like several people have stated cars are fast depreciating assets especially in its first four years and leasing Vehicles is literally throwing money out the window unless you have the wherewithal to do so. Most people who drive BMW Mercedes Lexus Audi lease them because they can't afford to buy them. And now you see the same thing with lower-end model cars such as Hondas Toyotas Nissan's Kias everyone is falling into this Leasing game.

Most my neighbor as well as colleagues all lease their vehicles. I for one would rather take that extra income and investe it. I purchased my current home in 2006 and will have my mortgage paid off by the end of next year. I invested my money and what I felt was in more important areas such as my home my 14yr old daughter's education she goes to private school. I'm 54 and will be retiring within 2 years. So while most my neighbor's will continue to be paying off their mortgages lease payments into their 60s I'll be free and clear 10 years before most.

Now I purchase myself ISF knowing that I was planning on keeping it for 10 years or more. Since owning my DD 90k miles ISF I've replaced rotors brake pads oil tires in nearly eight years of ownership the most expensive item I've had to replace was radiator recently. That cost me $400, My cousin who was a mechanic for the sanitation department before he became a fireman put it in for me $100. Now using your logic if I was Leasing a car for lets say $300 month which is your average payment four basic 3 Series BMW IS Lexus C Series Mercedes since 2014 when I finish paying off my ISF I would have paid out $14,400 in lease payments. That's $14,000 I put towards my mortgage.

And I agree with the M3 owner's that the Stinger Target audience is more along the lines of 340, Audi, Q50, IS350 all those cars fully optioned out are around 50K.

And just to let you know my ISF is FBO Tuned and has been for years and still going strong. As its been stated earlier using average of $300 per month would it cost more than $14,000 in that 4 year to maintain your average M3 I doubt it. How much have you spent to maintain your M3 since you purchased it used?

You want to talk about value buying something used over leasing something new I'm attaching a link to Club Lexus there was a guy there who recently purchased a Lexus ISF with 330,000 miles on it for $8,000 it currently has over 340,000miles on it it. The motor still makes power he had the motor oil sent out and analyzed by Blackstone it's in perfect running order. He list what he spent so far on things that needed to be repaired and let me tell you it's a very small list at that. https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...08-is-f-2.html

[Dr. Dre]

Originally Posted by davcrz5

I no this is an older post but I just had to weigh in on this, Dr Dre this statement is flat-out BS. Really no manufacturer it's going to produce parts for car that's 10 years old well that doesn't apply to Toyota, every domestic car manufacturer, Honda, Lexus, BMW Mercedes and the list goes on and on. Now your statement may be true for Kia/Hyundai and if that's the case then why offer a 10 year warranty your statements are contradicting themselves. And if Kia and Hyundai don't offer Parts after 10 years I wouldn't purchase any of their vehicles.

I'm bit of a neutral party here my current daily is 2011 Lexus ISF, that I purchased New back in Nov of 2010. I traded my 08' IS350 Fsport pkg in for 30k it was paid off. I used that 30k for down payment for My 62k ISF that I paid off in 2014. Just like several people have stated cars are fast depreciating assets especially in its first four years and leasing Vehicles is literally throwing money out the window unless you have the wherewithal to do so. Most people who drive BMW Mercedes Lexus Audi lease them because they can't afford to buy them. And now you see the same thing with lower-end model cars such as Hondas Toyotas Nissan's Kias everyone is falling into this Leasing game.

Most my neighbor as well as colleagues all lease their vehicles. I for one would rather take that extra income and investe it. I purchased my current home in 2006 and will have my mortgage paid off by the end of next year. I invested my money and what I felt was in more important areas such as my home my 14yr old daughter's education she goes to private school. I'm 54 and will be retiring within 2 years. So while most my neighbor's will continue to be paying off their mortgages lease payments into their 60s I'll be free and clear 10 years before most.

Now I purchase myself ISF knowing that I was planning on keeping it for 10 years or more. Since owning my DD 90k miles ISF I've replaced rotors brake pads oil tires in nearly eight years of ownership the most expensive item I've had to replace was radiator recently. That cost me $400, My cousin who was a mechanic for the sanitation department before he became a fireman put it in for me $100. Now using your logic if I was Leasing a car for lets say $300 month which is your average payment four basic 3 Series BMW IS Lexus C Series Mercedes since 2014 when I finish paying off my ISF I would have paid out $14,400 in lease payments. That's $14,000 I put towards my mortgage.

And I agree with the M3 owner's that the Stinger Target audience is more along the lines of 340, Audi, Q50, IS350 all those cars fully optioned out are around 50K.

And just to let you know my ISF is FBO Tuned and has been for years and still going strong. As its been stated earlier using average of $300 per month would it cost more than $14,000 in that 4 year to maintain your average M3 I doubt it. How much have you spent to maintain your M3 since you purchased it used?

You want to talk about value buying something used over leasing something new I'm attaching a link to Club Lexus there was a guy there who recently purchased a Lexus ISF with 330,000 miles on it for $8,000 it currently has over 340,000miles on it it. The motor still makes power he had the motor oil sent out and analyzed by Blackstone it's in perfect running order. He list what he spent so far on things that needed to be repaired and let me tell you it's a very small list at that. https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...08-is-f-2.html

It's 8 years after production has ended. If you're telling that BMW is still producing parts for the e9x M3 you're full of shit. Try getting a complete engine for an E9x M3. If you can find one it was produced well before production ended.

Do you really think somewhere in Germany they are still casting short blocks for E9x M3? Do you think somewhere in Japan they are casting short blocks for the IS-F? Somewhere in Germany one "M" technician is still assembling e9x M3 engines to be ready for sale at a moments notice. LOL.

Do you think they are still making DCT transmission for the e9x M3.. Come on.

A supplier would have to be brain dead to continue to make major component for that car.

Most components are made by suppliers such as Mahle, Delco, Denso, Takata. If you think they are dumb enough to continue to make parts for a car after production has ended you really have no idea what your talking about.

Manufacturer's go to each supplier and request that they build a set number of a specific component. It based on how many units they think they'll sell each year. They have to also consider replacement parts for crashes or other failure. They don't just pull that number out of their ass. After 8 years they have no obligation to provide a replacement component to the end customer.

[Freiheit]

This thread is back from the dead, how awesome.

I recently tried to give the Stinger another chance, despite it underwhelming me the first time. For my new go 'round, I started at the Kia site instead of the dealer. I wanted to see if it was possible to get into Stinger "performance" without the high sticker price of the AWD Stinger GT2.

Out of the three packages available - GT, GT1, GT2 - I found that only the base GT and the GT2 offered the limited slip differential. I know I'd want that. As I'd already walked away from the GT2, I chose the GT and hit "next".

To my surprise, there was only two options available: the limited slip diff, and the "KIA Drive Wise Package". As I perused the list of what that package offered, my inner driver started to scream in my head. Here was all the stupid systems I'd been raging against for years:


"Blind Spot Collision Warning (BCW) is an advanced technology that helps reduce the blind spots on the side and rear areas of the vehicle. Lane Change Assist (LCA) detects and warn you if vehicles are approaching from behind. "

So do properly adjusted mirrors, and driver attentiveness.

"Driver Attention Warning - The system monitors the driver and will provide alerts if it senses the driver's attention level has been significantly reduced."

You've got to be F*&$ing kidding me.

"Forward Collision Avoidance Assist works independently of the driver in critical situations, applying the brakes to help prevent or lessen the effects of a frontal collision."

Not hitting something will also lessen the effects. Look out of the front window, like, a lot.

"Forward Collision Warning System (FCWS) employs front-mounted radar to detect a potential collision with the car in front, and provides the driver audible warnings and visual signals on the meter display."

Yes, and it probably distracts the driver enough when it goes off to make you glad you have the Driver Attention Warning system.

"The Lane Departure Warning System (LDWS) is your second set of eyes on the road. This camera-based system monitors the position of your vehicle within its lane and helps warn you if it deviates, or is about to deviate, from the lane."

Someone! Please help me! My car is about to deviate!

"LDWS also helps warn you of a lane departure when your vehicle is traveling above a certain speed and the vehicle's turn signal is not activated."

What?

"In addition to LDWS, Lane Keep Assist System (LKAS) may apply corrective steering if it senses you drifting outside your lane."

Yeah how about you just keep your electronic hands off my steering, pal.

I gladly scrolled right past that sorry assembly of tech that no one should ever pay for, and saw the limited slip differential, priced at a very, very affordable $200. I clicked on that, and saw the $38,350 GT I was looking at suddenly rocket up to $41,450.

How did that happen?

Well, after you select the base GT, somehow that $38,350 climbs to $39,250 by the time I get to the next screen. Then, when I click on the $200 limited slip differential, the system automatically adds the godawful $2000 Kia DriveWise garbage. Why not just put the differential in the same package as the other crap?

Kia, despite all they have done right in the past, and all they're doing right these days, still has no idea how to package a car. They have no clue about their target market, and no idea how to sell this thing. Their color choices are uninspiring, the car needs to be available with a stick shift, and overall, it looks like an Optima with a bodykit. IT is the most un-engaging "performance car" I've ever driven.

They can take a flying leap into a pool of waste with it.

[davcrz5]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dre

It's 8 years after production has ended. If you're telling that BMW is still producing parts for the e9x M3 you're full of shit. Try getting a complete engine for an E9x M3. If you can find one it was produced well before production ended.

Do you really think somewhere in Germany they are still casting short blocks for E9x M3? Do you think somewhere in Japan they are casting short blocks for the IS-F? Somewhere in Germany one "M" technician is still assembling e9x M3 engines to be ready for sale at a moments notice. LOL.

Do you think they are still making DCT transmission for the e9x M3.. Come on.

A supplier would have to be brain dead to continue to make major component for that car.

Most components are made by suppliers such as Mahle, Delco, Denso, Takata. If you think they are dumb enough to continue to make parts for a car after production has ended you really have no idea what your talking about.

Manufacturer's go to each supplier and request that they build a set number of a specific component. It based on how many units they think they'll sell each year. They have to also consider replacement parts for crashes or other failure. They don't just pull that number out of their ass. After 8 years they have no obligation to provide a replacement component to the end customer.

Ahhh so it looks like I struck a nerve!!!!🤣🤣🤣 look how pissed off and defensive your response was. What I find very interesting is how you've managed to cherry-pick information just to make your argument, okay let's break it down.

First it is highly unusual for an entire motor or transmission to totally and utterly self-destruct to the point when nothing is usable on that block. Unless it's been in some sort of catastrophic crash. What usually occurs is a portion of that motor or transmission will fail and when that occurs you can typically get that replacement part from the factory. We are not talking about 30 year old cars now?

Since you're on your soapbox and seem to be so knowledgeable about every car company and their policies and procedures let's use my car as an example. Of the 11,000 ISF that were built worldwide I've known of One Transmission to fail. I've been involved with ISF community since 2009. I am a member of two other ISF forms as well as on the ISF Facebook page.

As far as Motors are concerned yes a few have failed but that was due to either an overindulgence in too much nitrous oxide and 2 that ran too much boost on their supercharged ISF. All those cars in question have their Motors rebuilt using Parts Source directly from Lexus. Imagine that being able to Source parts for a 2008 and 2009 car not just from Lexus dealerships but online Lexus parts suppliers. But per your own statement it would be impossible to get parts for 10 year old car One of the owners of The Supercharged ISF elected to go with aftermarket Pistons from J.E. so he could run more boost he also had additional work done to his heads, but all other components were Source through Lexus to repair his motor.

And why were on the subject of the Lexus ISF 2UR-GSE BLOCK? And I quote" "Do you think somewhere in Japan they are casting short blocks for the IS-F" YES IT IS STILL IN PRODUCTION!!!. Its being utilized in three other cars !! the RCF GSF and LC 500. Now yes there are major differences between these motors they all use same cast-aluminum block that’s in the IS-F, they all have Lightweight titanium valves are matched with strong, forged connecting rods, but RCF,GSF&LC500 have new cylinder heads that still incorporate variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust cams. The polished crankshaft is smaller in diameter to reduce friction, while the pistons reduce friction as well, the intake manifold and exhaust headers are new, wiring harness ECU on RCF, GSF & LC500 are new.

Since you're so knowledgeable and quoting so much information let me ask you this have you ever work for Toyota or Lexus or are you making assumptions with the emphasis on ass if you haven't then stick to what you know ĶIA!!!

Oh you can still Source new transmissions as well as motors from Japan. And if you know were to look you can always sources OEM New Old Stock parts. I'm 54 yrs old and have been building, modifying, cars and motorcycles for 38yrs my man. Everything from my very first car 1970 Mach 1 Mustang, Fox body Mustangs Gen 3 Camaros, Vettes, I did JDM thing for few yrs then Euro cars.

Now my Japanese Luxury Sports Sedan FBO Tuned ISF that will drive circles around your KIA Stinger is 100 times rarer than any Stinger will ever be with only 5100 ISF being imported to USA in 7yrs. And that is hard Fact they made more 458 Ferraris in that same time period 18k. ISF are holding there value nicely. Are ISF perfect NO have they had issues? of course they have every car does but overall as whole one of best cars I ever owned.

So try as you might you can quote anything you like the facts are the facts. You still never answer my question regarding how much money have you spent so far and maintaining your used M3 and has it been greater than typical 3 year lease based on $300 month entry level luxury cars so after three years that would be $10,800 with another $3,000 typically down. And if you dont have great credit that $300 month payment goes up quite quickly. So have you paid more than $14000 to maintain your M3 since you purchased it in 3yrs? So go head and reply and keep digging that hole deeper for yourself.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by GerrS65

Personally, I wouldn't care if it came stock with 500HP, and ran a 3.7 to 60. I wouldn't buy one because it says KIA on it...

Sounds just like a lot of Porsche and Ferrari guys talking about BMWs.

[Dr. Dre]

Originally Posted by davcrz5

Ahhh so it looks like I struck a nerve!!!!������ look how pissed off and defensive your response was. What I find very interesting is how you've managed to cherry-pick information just to make your argument, okay let's break it down.

First it is highly unusual for an entire motor or transmission to totally and utterly self-destruct to the point when nothing is usable on that block. Unless it's been in some sort of catastrophic crash. What usually occurs is a portion of that motor or transmission will fail and when that occurs you can typically get that replacement part from the factory. We are not talking about 30 year old cars now?

Since you're on your soapbox and seem to be so knowledgeable about every car company and their policies and procedures let's use my car as an example. Of the 11,000 ISF that were built worldwide I've known of One Transmission to fail. I've been involved with ISF community since 2009. I am a member of two other ISF forms as well as on the ISF Facebook page.

As far as Motors are concerned yes a few have failed but that was due to either an overindulgence in too much nitrous oxide and 2 that ran too much boost on their supercharged ISF. All those cars in question have their Motors rebuilt using Parts Source directly from Lexus. Imagine that being able to Source parts for a 2008 and 2009 car not just from Lexus dealerships but online Lexus parts suppliers. But per your own statement it would be impossible to get parts for 10 year old car One of the owners of The Supercharged ISF elected to go with aftermarket Pistons from J.E. so he could run more boost he also had additional work done to his heads, but all other components were Source through Lexus to repair his motor.

And why were on the subject of the Lexus ISF 2UR-GSE BLOCK? And I quote" "Do you think somewhere in Japan they are casting short blocks for the IS-F" YES IT IS STILL IN PRODUCTION!!!. Its being utilized in three other cars !! the RCF GSF and LC 500. Now yes there are major differences between these motors they all use same cast-aluminum block that’s in the IS-F, they all have Lightweight titanium valves are matched with strong, forged connecting rods, but RCF,GSF&LC500 have new cylinder heads that still incorporate variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust cams. The polished crankshaft is smaller in diameter to reduce friction, while the pistons reduce friction as well, the intake manifold and exhaust headers are new, wiring harness ECU on RCF, GSF & LC500 are new.

Since you're so knowledgeable and quoting so much information let me ask you this have you ever work for Toyota or Lexus or are you making assumptions with the emphasis on ass if you haven't then stick to what you know ĶIA!!!

Oh you can still Source new transmissions as well as motors from Japan. And if you know were to look you can always sources OEM New Old Stock parts. I'm 54 yrs old and have been building, modifying, cars and motorcycles for 38yrs my man. Everything from my very first car 1970 Mach 1 Mustang, Fox body Mustangs Gen 3 Camaros, Vettes, I did JDM thing for few yrs then Euro cars.

Now my Japanese Luxury Sports Sedan FBO Tuned ISF that will drive circles around your KIA Stinger is 100 times rarer than any Stinger will ever be with only 5100 ISF being imported to USA in 7yrs. And that is hard Fact they made more 458 Ferraris in that same time period 18k. ISF are holding there value nicely. Are ISF perfect NO have they had issues? of course they have every car does but overall as whole one of best cars I ever owned.

So try as you might you can quote anything you like the facts are the facts. You still never answer my question regarding how much money have you spent so far and maintaining your used M3 and has it been greater than typical 3 year lease based on $300 month entry level luxury cars so after three years that would be $10,800 with another $3,000 typically down. And if you dont have great credit that $300 month payment goes up quite quickly. So have you paid more than $14000 to maintain your M3 since you purchased it in 3yrs? So go head and reply and keep digging that hole deeper for yourself.

I actually worked for Toyota Motor Sales USA as a District Manager for 8 Years. I worked out of the corporate office in Torrance, CA( now located in Texas) for 1 of those 8 years. I've been in tons of corporate meeting where laws are discussed. Corporate strategy is discussed. I drove the European version of IS before the IS ever hit the American road. I use to work directly for the current head of Toyota Motor Sales USA, Jim Lentz.

Imagine that? Someone cherry picking facts to win an argument.

Answer this question. Is Lexus still producing engines for the IS-F?

[davcrz5]

[QUOTE=Dr. Dre;23428253]I actually worked for Toyota Motor Sales USA as a District Manager for 8 Years. I worked out of the corporate office in Torrance, CA( now located in Texas) for 1 of those 8 years. I've been in tons of corporate meeting where laws are discussed. Corporate strategy is discussed. I drove the European version of IS before the IS ever hit the American road. I use to work directly for the current head of Toyota Motor Sales USA, Jim Lentz.

Imagine that? Someone cherry picking facts to win an argument.

Answer this question. Is Lexus still producing engines for the IS-F?[/QUOTE


So then if you worked for Toyota you know full well that you can get parts for 10yr old car stop with B.S. Look al all these 10 plus yr old Toyota as well as Lexus is still running around if it was such a shortage in Parts why are there so many old Toyotas and Lexus is still on the road yes they make a great product but you still need to repair and replace parts from time to time.

I've already given you my response regarding the ISF and we're not here to talk about that ISF we're here to talk about Kia Stinger and E90 series M3. Stop distracting from the question and just answer one simple question regarding cost of ownership of your M3 vs leasing Stinger which greater of two over 3yr period??

You still are avoiding the main question that so many have pointed out. Leasing versus straight out ownership. Have you or know anyone personally that has spent more than $14,000 and a three-year to maintain their M3 yes or no. And if yes supporting documentation would be nice to prove your point.

And since work for Toyota you should know I don't have to worry about a motor for my ISF considering the amount of ISF that I have 150,000 miles on them or more and I'm still running strong. And since I no longer commute to NYC with that car it would literally take me 10 more years to get 150,000 miles.

So do us all favor and just answer questions for third time!!!

[Dr. Dre]

[QUOTE=davcrz5;23428515]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dre

I actually worked for Toyota Motor Sales USA as a District Manager for 8 Years. I worked out of the corporate office in Torrance, CA( now located in Texas) for 1 of those 8 years. I've been in tons of corporate meeting where laws are discussed. Corporate strategy is discussed. I drove the European version of IS before the IS ever hit the American road. I use to work directly for the current head of Toyota Motor Sales USA, Jim Lentz.

Imagine that? Someone cherry picking facts to win an argument.

Answer this question. Is Lexus still producing engines for the IS-F?[/QUOTE


So then if you worked for Toyota you know full well that you can get parts for 10yr old car stop with B.S. Look al all these 10 plus yr old Toyota as well as Lexus is still running around if it was such a shortage in Parts why are there so many old Toyotas and Lexus is still on the road yes they make a great product but you still need to repair and replace parts from time to time.

I've already given you my response regarding the ISF and we're not here to talk about that ISF we're here to talk about Kia Stinger and E90 series M3. Stop distracting from the question and just answer one simple question regarding cost of ownership of your M3 vs leasing Stinger which greater of two over 3yr period??

You still are avoiding the main question that so many have pointed out. Leasing versus straight out ownership. Have you or know anyone personally that has spent more than $14,000 and a three-year to maintain their M3 yes or no. And if yes supporting documentation would be nice to prove your point.

And since work for Toyota you should know I don't have to worry about a motor for my ISF considering the amount of ISF that I have 150,000 miles on them or more and I'm still running strong. And since I no longer commute to NYC with that car it would literally take me 10 more years to get 150,000 miles.

So do us all favor and just answer questions for third time!!!

I've stated multiple times that manufacturer's are only required to produce parts for a car up to eight years after production has ceased or ended. Is that such a hard concept to understand?

Let's take my 08 E9X M3. It's just about at the 10 year mark. If I'm not mistaken production of the E9X series ended in 2013. So add 8 years to 2013. That would mean that they would have to produce parts or have parts available to 2021. So clearly they each manufacturer would still have parts available based on end of production.

I'm out.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by davcrz5

Now my Japanese Luxury Sports Sedan FBO Tuned ISF that will drive circles around your KIA Stinger is 100 times rarer than any Stinger will ever be with only 5100 ISF being imported to USA in 7yrs. And that is hard Fact they made more 458 Ferraris in that same time period 18k. ISF are holding there value nicely. Are ISF perfect NO have they had issues? of course they have every car does but overall as whole one of best cars I ever owned.

Not trying to shit on IS-F, but in no way does it compare to Ferrari 458 let alone E92 M3. The major reason it was so low on production was that even in Japanese domestic market the car was considered overpriced in that they put very few R&D on chassis/suspension department and try to shadow them by electronic nannies. It got better with facelift with the introduction of LSD, but nowhere close to M3. IS F tranny is well known to overheat in tight mid speed circuits (just like all automatic trannies of this generation.)

The reason why Nissan and Toyota produces parts is that they use on-demand production system for all their lines, which in turn sends orders to smaller, non-subsidiary companies for cost and quality control (best one gets the “deal” from Toyota group) This means that unless sufficient amount of customers order such blocks, it won’t go into production. It is possible because Toyotas are sold worldwide. Toyota nowadays doesn’t even bother developing their own engine (BRZ, new Supra, etc)

[davcrz5]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Not trying to shit on IS-F, but in no way does it compare to Ferrari 458 let alone E92 M3. The major reason it was so low on production was that even in Japanese domestic market the car was considered overpriced in that they put very few R&D on chassis/suspension department and try to shadow them by electronic nannies. It got better with facelift with the introduction of LSD, but nowhere close to M3. IS F tranny is well known to overheat in tight mid speed circuits (just like all automatic trannies of this generation.)

The reason why Nissan and Toyota produces parts is that they use on-demand production system for all their lines, which in turn sends orders to smaller, non-subsidiary companies for cost and quality control (best one gets the “deal” from Toyota group) This means that unless sufficient amount of customers order such blocks, it won’t go into production. It is possible because Toyotas are sold worldwide. Toyota nowadays doesn’t even bother developing their own engine (BRZ, new Supra, etc)

This is not ISF vs M3 comparison This was meant to talk about the merits of leasing new stinger versus a pre-owned M3. But since you brought it up let's talk about it briefly and get back on subject. You are definitely entitled to your opinion and I respect that fact.

I was not comparing ISF to 458 in performance just in number of cars produced and how rare they are on road. Regarding Sales in the Japanese domestic Market ALL Lexus have low sales volume numbers in Japan only recently have they moved from Toyota brand name to Lexus, and yes they were more expensive than your average Toyota but still less expansive tben important M3. That has been well-documented for years only recently have sales numbers start to increase in Japan. Toyota built the Lexus brand primarily to compete in US market. Lexus also has lower sales numbers in Europe once again only recently have those numbers begun to increase.

And while on the subject of price when you compared similarly equipped equipped M3 vs ISF, the ISF was cheaper I'm not talkin about base model E90 M3 in 2011 55,900 vs 2011 ISF 60,660 but how most people did not purchase base model of these cars. The only options really available for the ISF were sunroof and navigation with the mark Levinson premium stereo. And that's how 99% all of ISF were delivered to dealers fully optioned out.

I paid invoice price fully loaded $62750 from Park Place Lexus in Plano Texas. for my 2011 ISF. My 2011 came with 8 speed directions shift Auto, Alcantara seats, Nav, premium 13 speaker Mark Levinson stereo, Bluetooth, MP3, sunroof, 19 inch BBS rims with 6 piston Brembo calipers and 14.2 rotors up front 2 piston calipers in the rear, Limited slip rear diff, updates shocks, control arms, springs, trailing arms, bushing etc. also these additional components where all standard equipment on ISF whereas on the M3 they were all options powered front seats, hands-free communication, backup camera, keyless start, rear seat pass through, Alcantara seats not available only full leather as mentioned above, navigation, tilt sunroof also mentioned above, satellite radio with a free 5-year subscription from Park Place Lexus, auxiliary input, Mp3 input mentioned above, heated seats, garage door opener, alarm a few other things all for $62750.

Lets take a look at this statement "they put very few R&D on chassis/suspension department and try to shadow them by electronic nannies. It got better with facelift with the introduction of LSD, but nowhere close to M3"


The ISF suspension was developed in two locations Fuji race track in Japan as well as the Nuremberg ring. Everyone is aware of the shortcomings of the 2008/2009 models suspension but to say they put no R&D into suspension and chassis really? They made some mistakes with design they were still going through their learning curve which they rectified in 2011. Some of these Corrections included not just mechanical diff but updated shocks what's different valving , Springs with change spring rates, control arms trailing arms bushings. As most here are aware 2011 C&D VIR Lighting Lap LL2 class both M3 and ISF had same time of 3:05.4 the M3 had cup tites and ISF was in PSS and weighs more. On tighter more technical track M3 will have Advantage due to its lighter weight and very tight chassis.

That's one of the good things about Lexus they didn't stop in 2011 with suspension development. Updates in 2012 as well 2013 were they did another significant revision of the suspension:

All springs and shock absorbers have been revised and are new parts.

- The front coil spring rates are reduced, and are now about 2.5% softer than in 2012.

- The rear coil spring rates are increased, and are now about 13% stiffer than in 2012.

- The rear suspension control arms & bushings are new and retuned.

- As was the case in 2012, the IS F shocks absorbers are supplied by German supplier ZF affiliate Sachs. In their 2013 iteration both front and rear shocks (or dampers) are retuned for increased damping force in compression at mid- to high-speed motions. There are changes to the rebound springs inside the Sachs shocks, which resist motion of the shock at large extensions. The front rebound springs have lower rates and the rear rebound springs discontinued, which increases ride comfort during low piston-speed motions. The 2013 IS F rear shocks well be the only ones in the Lexus lineup without rebound springs.

So for you to say and I quote "that they put very few R&D on chassis/suspension department and try to shadow them by electronic nannies" is misinformed. They continue to try to improve ISF suspension until the end of the model year in 2014. For skunkworks car that was never intended to be a track car they did pretty well with it.

"IS F tranny is well known to overheat in tight mid speed circuits (just like all automatic trannies of this generation.) Yes your are 100% current they do over on tight course. But this is easy fix and not that expensive there are a few companies that offer upgraded oil coolers such as figs engineering and RR racing. Both figs and RR racing have been race proven on the track so they definitely work you can be on the car all day long.

So now can we get back on track to with original question regarding the stinger and the M3

[pbonsalb]

If looking for a 40k new car, I’d also look at the Civic Type R if you don’t mind the looks. The Kia looks like a great value as well.

Personally, I’d probably buy a $40k used car instead, in order to get a bit more performance, but I don’t mind working on cars so less or no warranty could be OK with me.

I think the ISF is a great car. The torque and automatic must make it a great comfy daily driver, with a bit less edge to it than the M3. That is one Toyota that I would not mind driving.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by davcrz5

This is not ISF vs M3 comparison This was meant to talk about the merits of leasing new stinger versus a pre-owned M3. But since you brought it up let's talk about it briefly and get back on subject. You are definitely entitled to your opinion and I respect that fact.

I was not comparing ISF to 458 in performance just in number of cars produced and how rare they are on road. Regarding Sales in the Japanese domestic Market ALL Lexus have low sales volume numbers in Japan only recently have they moved from Toyota brand name to Lexus, and yes they were more expensive than your average Toyota but still less expansive tben important M3. That has been well-documented for years only recently have sales numbers start to increase in Japan. Toyota built the Lexus brand primarily to compete in US market. Lexus also has lower sales numbers in Europe once again only recently have those numbers begun to increase.

And while on the subject of price when you compared similarly equipped equipped M3 vs ISF, the ISF was cheaper I'm not talkin about base model E90 M3 in 2011 55,900 vs 2011 ISF 60,660 but how most people did not purchase base model of these cars. The only options really available for the ISF were sunroof and navigation with the mark Levinson premium stereo. And that's how 99% all of ISF were delivered to dealers fully optioned out.

I paid invoice price fully loaded $62750 from Park Place Lexus in Plano Texas. for my 2011 ISF. My 2011 came with 8 speed directions shift Auto, Alcantara seats, Nav, premium 13 speaker Mark Levinson stereo, Bluetooth, MP3, sunroof, 19 inch BBS rims with 6 piston Brembo calipers and 14.2 rotors up front 2 piston calipers in the rear, Limited slip rear diff, updates shocks, control arms, springs, trailing arms, bushing etc. also these additional components where all standard equipment on ISF whereas on the M3 they were all options powered front seats, hands-free communication, backup camera, keyless start, rear seat pass through, Alcantara seats not available only full leather as mentioned above, navigation, tilt sunroof also mentioned above, satellite radio with a free 5-year subscription from Park Place Lexus, auxiliary input, Mp3 input mentioned above, heated seats, garage door opener, alarm a few other things all for $62750.

Lets take a look at this statement "they put very few R&D on chassis/suspension department and try to shadow them by electronic nannies. It got better with facelift with the introduction of LSD, but nowhere close to M3"


The ISF suspension was developed in two locations Fuji race track in Japan as well as the Nuremberg ring. Everyone is aware of the shortcomings of the 2008/2009 models suspension but to say they put no R&D into suspension and chassis really? They made some mistakes with design they were still going through their learning curve which they rectified in 2011. Some of these Corrections included not just mechanical diff but updated shocks what's different valving , Springs with change spring rates, control arms trailing arms bushings. As most here are aware 2011 C&D VIR Lighting Lap LL2 class both M3 and ISF had same time of 3:05.4 the M3 had cup tites and ISF was in PSS and weighs more. On tighter more technical track M3 will have Advantage due to its lighter weight and very tight chassis.

That's one of the good things about Lexus they didn't stop in 2011 with suspension development. Updates in 2012 as well 2013 were they did another significant revision of the suspension:

All springs and shock absorbers have been revised and are new parts.

- The front coil spring rates are reduced, and are now about 2.5% softer than in 2012.

- The rear coil spring rates are increased, and are now about 13% stiffer than in 2012.

- The rear suspension control arms & bushings are new and retuned.

- As was the case in 2012, the IS F shocks absorbers are supplied by German supplier ZF affiliate Sachs. In their 2013 iteration both front and rear shocks (or dampers) are retuned for increased damping force in compression at mid- to high-speed motions. There are changes to the rebound springs inside the Sachs shocks, which resist motion of the shock at large extensions. The front rebound springs have lower rates and the rear rebound springs discontinued, which increases ride comfort during low piston-speed motions. The 2013 IS F rear shocks well be the only ones in the Lexus lineup without rebound springs.

So for you to say and I quote "that they put very few R&D on chassis/suspension department and try to shadow them by electronic nannies" is misinformed. They continue to try to improve ISF suspension until the end of the model year in 2014. For skunkworks car that was never intended to be a track car they did pretty well with it.

"IS F tranny is well known to overheat in tight mid speed circuits (just like all automatic trannies of this generation.) Yes your are 100% current they do over on tight course. But this is easy fix and not that expensive there are a few companies that offer upgraded oil coolers such as figs engineering and RR racing. Both figs and RR racing have been race proven on the track so they definitely work you can be on the car all day long.

So now can we get back on track to with original question regarding the stinger and the M3

I merely commented on this particular subject because 1. this is M3 vs ... section and 2. there is less gap between M3 and IS-F than there is IS-F to Stinger.

I have some points to clarify:

-I did comment knowing it was developed on Fuji Speedway; hell, Toyota owns the circuit.

-The phrase I am looking for is "not enough" as opposed to "very little." Mind you it's usually past midnight when I write my comments..

-It's interesting you bring up ZF, because there are quite a few strong local damper/spring sellers domestically such as Tein and HKS. I do not know whether it is their lack of technology compared to ZF or a better deal by the German equivalent, but strange for sure as working with domestic brands would be far more efficient for R&D.

- Softer front spring and harder rear spring is a common technique to tweak the suspension to a sportier setting for an FR vehicle, and is nothing special. It reduces overall yawing during cornering by somewhat reducing overall torsional flex: front grips through undulations while rear turns in better.
On the other hand, E92 body is quite neutral in its behavior in that its torsional rigidity far surpasses that of IS-F. What is remarkable is that they further push the lowering CoG department using CFRP roof, aluminum hood and lower engine mount position.

-By removal of rebound spring, do you mean they put a bump stop inside the shock absorber instead? BMW has done it since E30 generation. Further, there is another way to achieve ultimate "comfort" without compromising driveability (sportiness): balance between spring and damper (respectively decides rebound velocity and compression velocity.) I'm not going to go in details about this, but Porsche does this really well. It also costs a lot more R&D $$$.

-One of the shortcomings of M3 is that it uses single piston F&R brakes with not enough rotor diameter for a car with such acceleration. IS-F does a lot better job with this which might explain the near identical lap time. I would be curious to know what setup the M3 has run in with C&D test as some of the optioned vehicles can be quite heavy compared to a 6MT (road condition, DCT Y/N, EDC Y/N, miles on it, etc...) Contrary to a popular belief, semislicks don't always perform better than street tires even on a circuit

[davcrz5]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I merely commented on this particular subject because 1. this is M3 vs ... section and 2. there is less gap between M3 and IS-F than there is IS-F to Stinger.

I have some points to clarify:

-I did comment knowing it was developed on Fuji Speedway; hell, Toyota owns the circuit.

-The phrase I am looking for is "not enough" as opposed to "very little." Mind you it's usually past midnight when I write my comments..

-It's interesting you bring up ZF, because there are quite a few strong local damper/spring sellers domestically such as Tein and HKS. I do not know whether it is their lack of technology compared to ZF or a better deal by the German equivalent, but strange for sure as working with domestic brands would be far more efficient for R&D.

- Softer front spring and harder rear spring is a common technique to tweak the suspension to a sportier setting for an FR vehicle, and is nothing special. It reduces overall yawing during cornering by somewhat reducing overall torsional flex: front grips through undulations while rear turns in better.
On the other hand, E92 body is quite neutral in its behavior in that its torsional rigidity far surpasses that of IS-F. What is remarkable is that they further push the lowering CoG department using CFRP roof, aluminum hood and lower engine mount position.

-By removal of rebound spring, do you mean they put a bump stop inside the shock absorber instead? BMW has done it since E30 generation. Further, there is another way to achieve ultimate "comfort" without compromising driveability (sportiness): balance between spring and damper (respectively decides rebound velocity and compression velocity.) I'm not going to go in details about this, but Porsche does this really well. It also costs a lot more R&D $$$.

-One of the shortcomings of M3 is that it uses single piston F&R brakes with not enough rotor diameter for a car with such acceleration. IS-F does a lot better job with this which might explain the near identical lap time. I would be curious to know what setup the M3 has run in with C&D test as some of the optioned vehicles can be quite heavy compared to a 6MT (road condition, DCT Y/N, EDC Y/N, miles on it, etc...) Contrary to a popular belief, semislicks don't always perform better than street tires even on a circuit

Its, great to have feed back from knowledgeable enthusiastic. As far as im aware the 2008 M3 at VIR was DCT what's also interesting is that M3 and ISF were both 1 sec faster than C63AMG. "Further, there is another way to achieve ultimate "comfort" without compromising driveability (sportiness): balance between spring and damper (respectively decides rebound velocity and compression velocity.) I'm not going to go in details about this, but Porsche does this really well. It also costs a lot more R&D $$$. We could discuss suspension for hours. For ISF recently there was not much aftermarket support but since the ECU has been crack proverbial Pandora box has been opened whereas before aftermarket companies & tuners we're not interested in investing Heavenly into this particular platform that has done a 180 change. You can now get coilovers setups from companies such as Penske ohlins KW RR racing and several others and not just coilovers everything from adjustable lower and upper control arms sway bars and links ETC. These things have drastically improve the drivability of the ISF as well as the RCF GSF. They tunes out for ISF, RCF,GSF, IS350. They currently have three different levels of superchargers available of the ISF the 625hp 670hp and 725hp kits. With the new influx of components from the aftermarket have become way more capable especially in the handling Department the additional hp doesnt hurt either LOL. The car's capabilities of come a long way in the last 10 years. And as you are well aware and what I like to tell everyone but most important mod of all is the one behind that wheel the driver.