BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
European Auto Source (EAS)
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-12-2020, 05:28 AM   #1
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

HPDE experiments, results and observations

This thread will be used to describe my experiments, results and observations.

I am starting the 4th season tracking my 2013 E92 M3.

So far I have roughly 70 track days over 3 years.

I am looking to do 20 trackdays this year split evenly between NYST and LRP.

Last edited by rhyary; 10-03-2022 at 03:03 PM..
Appreciate 1
      01-12-2020, 05:32 AM   #2
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Changes to this year are minimal
The only planned change is to install Rogue solid bushing number 553 and 829 in the diagram. I already have 092 installed in 2018.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
tlrid3r507.00
      01-12-2020, 05:40 AM   #3
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Tires Philosophy

Cheap is good and front and rear do not have to match.

While I don't expect to set lap times records, I don't know how slower it is from top speed. But I will find out :-)

Reference would be Hoosier R7 265/35/19 front, 295/30/19 rear. Best Laptime NYST 1:35.7. Cost $1521 a set with a coupon from trackdaytire.


For the majority of the trackdays I will be experimenting with tires on number of levels and using Aim, I am going to monitor performance and wear.

I am trying to focus on spending $200 per tire. Using eBay and used tires combination.

For alignment I am going to see what Front max negative camber I can get. Rears are on -2.0 and for now I'll stay on -2.0
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 05:44 AM   #4
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Tire Sizes

This year I will be focusing on two front sizes
1. 275/30/19
2. 265/35/19

For the rear I have three options:
1. 295/30/19 - verified fitment
2. 285/35/19 - to be tested for fitment
3. 275/35/19 - verified fitment

A particular combination I am curious about is the square one. 275/30/19 front and 275/35/19 rear.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 09:06 AM   #5
admranger
Retired Curmudgeon
admranger's Avatar
United_States
2982
Rep
4,046
Posts

Drives: ‘19 X3M40i, ‘18 m550i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Tires Philosophy

Cheap is good and front and rear do not have to match.

While I don't expect to set lap times records, I don't know how slower it is from top speed. But I will find out :-)

Reference would be Hoosier R7 265/35/19 front, 295/30/19 rear. Best Laptime NYST 1:35.7. Cost $1521 a set with a coupon from trackdaytire.


For the majority of the trackdays I will be experimenting with tires on number of levels and using Aim, I am going to monitor performance and wear.

I am trying to focus on spending $200 per tire. Using eBay and used tires combination.

For alignment I am going to see what Front max negative camber I can get. Rears are on -2.0 and for now I'll stay on -2.0
Why? What issue are you trying to solve? More camber results in less braking force available. The rear of the E90 doesn’t need too much camber to work well.

I think the problem statement you’re trying to solve is: “what is the optimal camber at the rear of my car?” However, randomly throwing tires at the rear will result in random results. Each tire (e.g., R7) has a sweet spot for camber. Throwing tires, including mismatched compounds, on the car will lead to indeterminate results and likely, frustration.

Now, if your goal is to turn gas into noise; carry on.
__________________

'19 X3 M40 Carbon Black/Oyster, '23 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Summit, Past BMWs: '18 M550i, '18 330 GT, '16 X5 40e, '11 E90M3, '06 X5 4.4, '03 330i ZHP, '02 M3, '97 Z3 2.8, '95 M3 (2x), '94 530i (manual), '92 525i (manual), '88 M3, '87 325iS
Appreciate 2
dparm3848.00
Exclusivs540.50
      01-12-2020, 09:31 AM   #6
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Tires Philosophy

Cheap is good and front and rear do not have to match.

While I don't expect to set lap times records, I don't know how slower it is from top speed. But I will find out :-)

Reference would be Hoosier R7 265/35/19 front, 295/30/19 rear. Best Laptime NYST 1:35.7. Cost $1521 a set with a coupon from trackdaytire.


For the majority of the trackdays I will be experimenting with tires on number of levels and using Aim, I am going to monitor performance and wear.

I am trying to focus on spending $200 per tire. Using eBay and used tires combination.

For alignment I am going to see what Front max negative camber I can get. Rears are on -2.0 and for now I'll stay on -2.0
Why? What issue are you trying to solve? More camber results in less braking force available. The rear of the E90 doesn't need too much camber to work well.

I think the problem statement you're trying to solve is: "what is the optimal camber at the rear of my car?" However, randomly throwing tires at the rear will result in random results. Each tire (e.g., R7) has a sweet spot for camber. Throwing tires, including mismatched compounds, on the car will lead to indeterminate results and likely, frustration.

Now, if your goal is to turn gas into noise; carry on.
Sorry I was not clear.

My objective is to do as many trackdays as possible at a given budget. Meaning, I am trying to optimize my budget to get the most enjoyment. That means being on the track and driving in circles. If I can do 20 days on creative tire choices, or 10 days on the obvious expensive choice, I choose 20 days.

With all the expertise expressed on this forum, no one have yet quantify their opinion with laptime numbers.

I am not trying to optimize the rear. -2.0 is fine.

On the front, I am trying to optimize the wear of the tires to last two track days at NYST. At -3.0 I was not able to finish two days doing my best time so far.

You are correctly observes that this sport is about compromise. What I don't know, but will find out, is the ratio between tire longevity and laptime.

By maximizing the -camber, you are right, braking will be less effective. But is that .0001 second or 1 second?

If I sacrifice .001 sec laptime but would able to gain few sessions before cording the tires, than my objective of driving the car in circle would be accomplish.

I hope this clarify.

On a personal note, in my whole life, this is the only place I have been "accused" of engaging in "random" activity. But I am totally fine with that :-)
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 10:32 AM   #7
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Taking Notes and Keeping them together with AiM data.

I am guilty at not taking enough notes in the last 3 years. For this year I will be storing more detailed notes in the AiM data file so I can review the lap times together with setup information.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 10:41 AM   #8
admranger
Retired Curmudgeon
admranger's Avatar
United_States
2982
Rep
4,046
Posts

Drives: ‘19 X3M40i, ‘18 m550i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (1)

Fair enough! Good luck!

BTW: there’s nothing wrong with just going out there and turning gas into noise. It’s where I’ve been for a decade. Only thing I’m chasing is retirement.
__________________

'19 X3 M40 Carbon Black/Oyster, '23 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Summit, Past BMWs: '18 M550i, '18 330 GT, '16 X5 40e, '11 E90M3, '06 X5 4.4, '03 330i ZHP, '02 M3, '97 Z3 2.8, '95 M3 (2x), '94 530i (manual), '92 525i (manual), '88 M3, '87 325iS
Appreciate 2
Vybz131.50
      01-12-2020, 10:52 AM   #9
Ximian
.
Ximian's Avatar
United_States
1885
Rep
1,854
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: MN

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [0.00]
2021 BMW M3  [0.00]
If you want additional consistency from tires, find a place that has (or sell a child to buy) a tire purging and drying system. The goal of it is to reduce the moisture content when the tire is filled with air or nitrogen so you get more consistent and less dramatic tire pressure peaks. They also have tools that are much cheaper that measure moisture content for the air in the tire and that may be a useful thing to keep track of.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 11:50 AM   #10
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Fair enough! Good luck!

BTW: there's nothing wrong with just going out there and turning gas into noise. It's where I've been for a decade. Only thing I'm chasing is retirement.
haha,
No matter what I do with cars, my wife categorize it as turning dollars into noise and I don't blame her.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 11:52 AM   #11
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
If you want additional consistency from tires, find a place that has (or sell a child to buy) a tire purging and drying system. The goal of it is to reduce the moisture content when the tire is filled with air or nitrogen so you get more consistent and less dramatic tire pressure peaks. They also have tools that are much cheaper that measure moisture content for the air in the tire and that may be a useful thing to keep track of.
I have only two kids so no spares
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 01:57 PM   #12
Bartledoo
Driver
Bartledoo's Avatar
2690
Rep
2,714
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Well, since you don't care about running the same tires front/rear you could do hankook RS4 275/35r19 in the rear. And don't scoff at their price because they last forever on track, they will handle heat a lot better than your other street tire choices, and before they overheat (which they still will do if you run a few laps near their limit) they are probably only 1-1.5 second slower than NT01 on a 2 minute track.
__________________
E90M 6MT Slicktop Single Humper in need of a diet
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 02:49 PM   #13
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Well, since you don't care about running the same tires front/rear you could do hankook RS4 275/35r19 in the rear. And don't scoff at their price because they last forever on track, they will handle heat a lot better than your other street tire choices, and before they overheat (which they still will do if you run a few laps near their limit) they are probably only 1-1.5 second slower than NT01 on a 2 minute track.
Thanks,
I will put those on my list to watch for.

I have search for 275/35/19 saved on eBay and will see what shows up over time.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2020, 03:59 PM   #14
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

I found a second new FFI500 on Amazon for $182.
So FFI500 from eBay $162

Total front $344.

I have a MPSS 275/35/19 from eBay
one for $130 and another for 224.

So my first track day I will be running square 275.

Two new FFI500 275/30/19
Two previously loved MPSS 275/35/19

For a total of $698.00 not mounted.

Now let's see what kind of lap times I can get and for how long they will last
Appreciate 0
      01-13-2020, 01:06 AM   #15
gmx
Lieutenant
166
Rep
478
Posts

Drives: VO 1M
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sydney, AU

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Changes to this year are minimal
The only planned change is to install Rogue solid bushing number 553 and 829 in the diagram. I already have 092 installed in 2018.
Outboard Lower Control arm bush is already spherical. Don't waste your time. That might be a 135i/335i thing if it's rubber?

Inboard is where you want to pay attention to.
https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...aring-Kit.html

Other stuff to consider include outboard rear upper wishbone and guide arms:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1615006

If you can design for the tapered seat on the knuckle, Meyle HD or Lemforder (preferred) spherical bearings can work or just buy aftermarket complete replacement arms.

RTABs, good choice. Never knew Rogue engineered some. You'll notice once you press bushes or at least remove the arms, most are the same size throughout the car. Also, these bushes on the knuckle sit slightly off centre which affects geometry. Take note of what they are before removal.

Do you already have RSFBs? The fuel tank sits very close to the inner RTAB. May as well knock both out at the same time.
Appreciate 0
      01-13-2020, 07:42 AM   #16
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Changes to this year are minimal
The only planned change is to install Rogue solid bushing number 553 and 829 in the diagram. I already have 092 installed in 2018.
Outboard Lower Control arm bush is already spherical. Don't waste your time. That might be a 135i/335i thing if it's rubber?

Inboard is where you want to pay attention to.
https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...aring-Kit.html

Other stuff to consider include outboard rear upper wishbone and guide arms:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1615006

If you can design for the tapered seat on the knuckle, Meyle HD or Lemforder (preferred) spherical bearings can work or just buy aftermarket complete replacement arms.

RTABs, good choice. Never knew Rogue engineered some. You'll notice once you press bushes or at least remove the arms, most are the same size throughout the car. Also, these bushes on the knuckle sit slightly off centre which affects geometry. Take note of what they are before removal.

Do you already have RSFBs? The fuel tank sits very close to the inner RTAB. May as well knock both out at the same time.
I already have this kit installed.
Does this changes your recommendation?
.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      01-13-2020, 12:25 PM   #17
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

@admranger,

>> More camber results in less braking force available. The rear of the E90 doesn't need too much camber to work well.

I think dogbone answer this concern the best:


https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=25677454
Appreciate 0
      01-13-2020, 08:20 PM   #18
gmx
Lieutenant
166
Rep
478
Posts

Drives: VO 1M
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sydney, AU

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I already have this kit installed.
Does this changes your recommendation?
.
Nope, misread your original post Thought 553 = "wishbone"

Didn't know Rogue had an offering for 553 (inner lower camber arm joint). Let us know how it goes from the piece itself, installation ease etc.
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2020, 02:10 PM   #19
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

I am looking for this tape to keep my wheel weights from flying off.

Can someone confirm this take or provide a link to what works?

Thanks in advance


3M 3311 Silver Aluminum Foil Tape - 1 in. x 5 yd. Vapor Resistant Rubber Adhesive Foil Tape Roll. Adhesives and Tapes https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7EOT0..._DrHiEbPY0VWEX
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2020, 02:25 PM   #20
turbo_joe
Lieutenant Colonel
turbo_joe's Avatar
1591
Rep
1,578
Posts

Drives: 2012 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: SOMD

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I am looking for this tape to keep my wheel weights from flying off.

Can someone confirm this take or provide a link to what works?

Thanks in advance


3M 3311 Silver Aluminum Foil Tape - 1 in. x 5 yd. Vapor Resistant Rubber Adhesive Foil Tape Roll. Adhesives and Tapes https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7EOT0..._DrHiEbPY0VWEX
It will work just fine, I would go with the 2" width though. I use almost the exact same stuff on my track wheels
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2020, 04:16 PM   #21
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo_joe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I am looking for this tape to keep my wheel weights from flying off.

Can someone confirm this take or provide a link to what works?

Thanks in advance


3M 3311 Silver Aluminum Foil Tape - 1 in. x 5 yd. Vapor Resistant Rubber Adhesive Foil Tape Roll. Adhesives and Tapes https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7EOT0..._DrHiEbPY0VWEX
It will work just fine, I would go with the 2" width though. I use almost the exact same stuff on my track wheels
Thanks. will look for the 2"
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2020, 10:54 AM   #22
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

I decided to start the season, if the winter ever be over - feels like eternity - with the square setup.

So on the front I am mounting the two new Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 275/30/19.

On the rear I am mounting previously loved but in good shape Michelin Pilot Sport 275/35/19.

I think the tires are similar enough that the dominate experience would be the square setup, rather than the difference between the front and rear tires.

I will be doing alignment changes. When the car gets to ACM we will see maximum negative camber we can get to and what the toe value at that camber.

The rear is on -2.0, but I saw that @dogbone likes -2.2 and I can see if that would be possible.

Other than that, not much can be done until end of March track day at LRP with SCDA

My goal until July is to try different tires I have collected over the winter at moderate pace and concentrating on driving with DSC off and feel the traction provided.

Once the weather get to hot days, I will be using the Proxe RR 295/30/19 and the PSC2 265/35/19 to push hard and see how this combination works. I got the RR for $200 a tire and the Cup2 for a bit more.

I have 3 sets ready in that combination.

Once I see data and lap times at NYST and LRP, I can make some decisions on what works and what does not.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:46 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST