BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
BPM
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-09-2019, 11:27 AM   #89
dparm
World's greatest HPDE driver
dparm's Avatar
United_States
2209
Rep
7,153
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette Grand Sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (1)

Not to hijack this thread, but here's my front and rear passenger tires after 3 days at COTA, 1/2 day at MSR Cresson, and 1 day at Autobahn CC. Also had about 4-5k worth of street miles on them.

Up front there's still a decent amount of wear on the outside shoulder, but also some inside shoulder wear. Car is -2.0 camber all around. Going to take it to the guys at Texas Track Works for a more aggressive alignment. Any thoughts?

Rears seem to be wearing more evenly, and the wear is fairly even on both sides of the car.
Attached Images
  
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 0
      05-09-2019, 12:48 PM   #90
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3560
Rep
5,418
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

dparm
The outside edge wear is a lack of camber
The very localized inside wear is, to me, excessively aggressive toe.
Appreciate 1
roastbeef5753.50

      05-09-2019, 01:58 PM   #91
Tommysalami
Private
Tommysalami's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: DC

iTrader: (0)

Yeah, what are your toe settings? That inner wear looks like toe + camber wear probably just from normal driving. I wouldn't worry about it since the track miles will probably wear your tires before that inside shoulder becomes a problem

For optimum camber it's probably best to buy or borrow a pyrometer and measure hot temps across the tire, shooting for around 5 degree increase from outside to middle, and middle to inside (hottest temperatures on the inside). I have this one https://www.amazon.com/Joes-Racing-5.../dp/B005JVFTTM
It's not perfect since whichever turn you took last will influence your measurements, but it's better and quicker feedback than using tire wear alone.

-2.0 is probably good for the rear if you're getting even wear. That seems to be around the range people run. But I imagine you'll need at least -2.5 in the front, maybe more depending how much you're limiting body roll and loss of camber, etc. Strut cars tend to need more. I've heard stories of Porsche Cup cars running in the range of -5 degrees up front. I was getting even wear across my Rival S in my Miata with -3.5 deg, and that's on a double wishbone car, albeit for autocross and not the track.
Appreciate 0
      05-09-2019, 03:57 PM   #92
dparm
World's greatest HPDE driver
dparm's Avatar
United_States
2209
Rep
7,153
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette Grand Sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
dparm
The outside edge wear is a lack of camber
The very localized inside wear is, to me, excessively aggressive toe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommysalami View Post
Yeah, what are your toe settings? That inner wear looks like toe + camber wear probably just from normal driving. I wouldn't worry about it since the track miles will probably wear your tires before that inside shoulder becomes a problem

For optimum camber it's probably best to buy or borrow a pyrometer and measure hot temps across the tire, shooting for around 5 degree increase from outside to middle, and middle to inside (hottest temperatures on the inside). I have this one https://www.amazon.com/Joes-Racing-5.../dp/B005JVFTTM
It's not perfect since whichever turn you took last will influence your measurements, but it's better and quicker feedback than using tire wear alone.

-2.0 is probably good for the rear if you're getting even wear. That seems to be around the range people run. But I imagine you'll need at least -2.5 in the front, maybe more depending how much you're limiting body roll and loss of camber, etc. Strut cars tend to need more. I've heard stories of Porsche Cup cars running in the range of -5 degrees up front. I was getting even wear across my Rival S in my Miata with -3.5 deg, and that's on a double wishbone car, albeit for autocross and not the track.

Car is aligned to GM's "competitive driving" spec which is an aggressive street alignment but definitely not purely for track use since they know owners can't move the alignment back and forth every time. Plenty more room to dial in negative camber (guys can get -2.5 or more on stock suspension) but I'm going to let the shop handle it since they do nothing but race car prep. Just thought I'd get some extra opinions. I wouldn't say the tire wear is really that bad, all things considered.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP

Last edited by dparm; 05-09-2019 at 04:04 PM..
Appreciate 0
      05-09-2019, 04:06 PM   #93
Tommysalami
Private
Tommysalami's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: DC

iTrader: (0)

Oh that's for your Vette? What range of adjustment do you have up front?

Guess any inner wear you see must be from the camber then.

Gotta make the same choice as everyone else then, whether you want better street wear or want to avoid burning through tires at the track from outside shoulder wear. I would think if you're doing more than one or two track days in a year, and not daily driving it, it'll be worth optimizing for the track
Appreciate 0
      05-09-2019, 05:57 PM   #94
dparm
World's greatest HPDE driver
dparm's Avatar
United_States
2209
Rep
7,153
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette Grand Sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommysalami View Post
Oh that's for your Vette? What range of adjustment do you have up front?

Guess any inner wear you see must be from the camber then.

Gotta make the same choice as everyone else then, whether you want better street wear or want to avoid burning through tires at the track from outside shoulder wear. I would think if you're doing more than one or two track days in a year, and not daily driving it, it'll be worth optimizing for the track

There are guys who get -2.7 on the stock suspension, no extra parts needed. I don't think 5-6 track days is that bad given the corner forces this thing pulls. 3 days at COTA is going to be hard on any tire.
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 0
      05-10-2019, 04:23 AM   #95
roastbeef
Major General
roastbeef's Avatar
United_States
5754
Rep
9,637
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (2)

i'd say max out that camber and the wear should look pretty good.
__________________
Instagram; @roastbeefmike
Appreciate 0
      05-10-2019, 06:56 PM   #96
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Officially done with the 275/30/19 today
This interesting thing here is that the tire corded the inside, not the outside. Wait... there is more, it corded only half the tire, the other half looks like the outside.

Today was half day wet but in the afternoon we had open track and semi dry track with spilled oil to make it interesting so I got two sessions of ~40 minutes but ran out if rubber and couldn't do the third open session.

This was a Honda S2000 day. I got to know the leader if the group last year, so he let me snick into his S2K day.

Best times was in the 1:40

All three pictures are the front passenger.
First and third are the inside. the middle is the outside. The outside was uniformed but the inside was corded on half the tire, while the other half was used, but not abused.
Good time
Attached Images
   
Appreciate 0
      05-10-2019, 07:31 PM   #97
roastbeef
Major General
roastbeef's Avatar
United_States
5754
Rep
9,637
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Officially done with the 275/30/19 today
This interesting thing here is that the tire corded the inside, not the outside. Wait... there is more, it corded only half the tire, the other half looks like the outside.

Today was half day wet but in the afternoon we had open track and semi dry track with spilled oil to make it interesting so I got two sessions of ~40 minutes but ran out if rubber and couldn't do the third open session.

This was a Honda S2000 day. I got to know the leader if the group last year, so he let me snick into his S2K day.

Best times was in the 1:40

All three pictures are the front passenger.
First and third are the inside. the middle is the outside. The outside was uniformed but the inside was corded on half the tire, while the other half was used, but not abused.
Good time
you have an alignment issue, i'd say that is not normal wear, even for an aggressive setup.
__________________
Instagram; @roastbeefmike
Appreciate 0
      05-11-2019, 06:48 AM   #98
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Officially done with the 275/30/19 today
This interesting thing here is that the tire corded the inside, not the outside. Wait... there is more, it corded only half the tire, the other half looks like the outside.

Today was half day wet but in the afternoon we had open track and semi dry track with spilled oil to make it interesting so I got two sessions of ~40 minutes but ran out if rubber and couldn't do the third open session.

This was a Honda S2000 day. I got to know the leader if the group last year, so he let me snick into his S2K day.

Best times was in the 1:40

All three pictures are the front passenger.
First and third are the inside. the middle is the outside. The outside was uniformed but the inside was corded on half the tire, while the other half was used, but not abused.
Good time
you have an alignment issue, i'd say that is not normal wear, even for an aggressive setup.
Agreed. Alignment.
Camber at -2.9 seems to be good for the outside. Can Toe settings be a good direction?
I know we set it to mildly point outward.
Appreciate 0
      05-11-2019, 07:51 AM   #99
roastbeef
Major General
roastbeef's Avatar
United_States
5754
Rep
9,637
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Agreed. Alignment.
Camber at -2.9 seems to be good for the outside. Can Toe settings be a good direction?
I know we set it to mildly point outward.
camber doesn't seem too aggressive, and i don't see any feathering just eyeballing it, but double check the toe. is the car still pushing in the corners?
__________________
Instagram; @roastbeefmike
Appreciate 0
      05-11-2019, 08:22 AM   #100
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Agreed. Alignment.
Camber at -2.9 seems to be good for the outside. Can Toe settings be a good direction?
I know we set it to mildly point outward.
camber doesn't seem too aggressive, and i don't see any feathering just eyeballing it, but double check the toe. is the car still pushing in the corners?
The car is now doing great in the corners.
With 3rd gear I can peel off the rubber of any tire, so I managing the long turn on 4th gear.

The suspension is now tuned to die for. It is truly amazing to drive this car. I will be posting few videos after my 5/19 trackday now that I got my in-car studio to work.

Back to tires wear, At pace of 1:43-1:50 the tires survive and evenly consumed on all 4 corners and inside and out. Just the way I want it. And 35 PSI "warm" seems to be a key contributor

But... on pace, 1:38-1:40 it develops this inside issue that I have to solve.
Appreciate 0
      05-11-2019, 02:22 PM   #101
dparm
World's greatest HPDE driver
dparm's Avatar
United_States
2209
Rep
7,153
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette Grand Sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Officially done with the 275/30/19 today
This interesting thing here is that the tire corded the inside, not the outside. Wait... there is more, it corded only half the tire, the other half looks like the outside.

Today was half day wet but in the afternoon we had open track and semi dry track with spilled oil to make it interesting so I got two sessions of ~40 minutes but ran out if rubber and couldn't do the third open session.

This was a Honda S2000 day. I got to know the leader if the group last year, so he let me snick into his S2K day.

Best times was in the 1:40

All three pictures are the front passenger.
First and third are the inside. the middle is the outside. The outside was uniformed but the inside was corded on half the tire, while the other half was used, but not abused.
Good time

That's a toe issue, if I had to guess. Or that portion of the tire is rubbing on something under the car (loose fender liner, suspension piece, etc).
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 0
      05-11-2019, 03:32 PM   #102
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Officially done with the 275/30/19 today
This interesting thing here is that the tire corded the inside, not the outside. Wait... there is more, it corded only half the tire, the other half looks like the outside.

Today was half day wet but in the afternoon we had open track and semi dry track with spilled oil to make it interesting so I got two sessions of ~40 minutes but ran out if rubber and couldn't do the third open session.

This was a Honda S2000 day. I got to know the leader if the group last year, so he let me snick into his S2K day.

Best times was in the 1:40

All three pictures are the front passenger.
First and third are the inside. the middle is the outside. The outside was uniformed but the inside was corded on half the tire, while the other half was used, but not abused.
Good time

That's a toe issue, if I had to guess. Or that portion of the tire is rubbing on something under the car (loose fender liner, suspension piece, etc).
No rubbing.
For -3.0 camber, what should the toe be?
I will have to bring it into the dealership and tell them what I want.

I can't get to ACM before the next track day.
Appreciate 0
      05-11-2019, 04:14 PM   #103
dparm
World's greatest HPDE driver
dparm's Avatar
United_States
2209
Rep
7,153
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette Grand Sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
No rubbing.
For -3.0 camber, what should the toe be?
I will have to bring it into the dealership and tell them what I want.

I can't get to ACM before the next track day.

There's no correct answer. It depends on what kind of handling characteristics you want.

You can't find another alignment shop?
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 0
      05-11-2019, 04:19 PM   #104
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
No rubbing.
For -3.0 camber, what should the toe be?
I will have to bring it into the dealership and tell them what I want.

I can't get to ACM before the next track day.

There's no correct answer. It depends on what kind of handling characteristics you want.

You can't find another alignment shop?
The one that does not eat my tire's inside.
Appreciate 0
      05-12-2019, 01:52 AM   #105
Bartledoo
Just Some F****** Guy
Bartledoo's Avatar
United_States
683
Rep
1,142
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
The one that does not eat my tire's inside.
Do you only drive the car on track, or both street and track (and what proportion)? You'll probably need to make compromises. Also, what are your current alignment specs?
Appreciate 0
      05-12-2019, 04:31 AM   #106
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
The one that does not eat my tire's inside.
Do you only drive the car on track, or both street and track (and what proportion)? You'll probably need to make compromises. Also, what are your current alignment specs?
Mostly track and 140 miles round trip to the track. -2.9 camber
Appreciate 0
      05-12-2019, 02:47 PM   #107
Bartledoo
Just Some F****** Guy
Bartledoo's Avatar
United_States
683
Rep
1,142
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Mostly track and 140 miles round trip to the track. -2.9 camber
You don't know your current toe settings?

Slight toe-in would reduce the inner wear the most, given the camber, but nobody really wants front toe-in for track/performance drivin. So, we generally go with zero front toe as a compromise, instead of slight toe out.
Appreciate 0
      05-12-2019, 03:54 PM   #108
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Mostly track and 140 miles round trip to the track. -2.9 camber
You don't know your current toe settings?

Slight toe-in would reduce the inner wear the most, given the camber, but nobody really wants front toe-in for track/performance drivin. So, we generally go with zero front toe as a compromise, instead of slight toe out.
I believe we tried a slight toe out to improve understeer, but i am going back to 0.

I am not willing to eat up the inside just to win my HPDE session.
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2019, 09:46 AM   #109
bigjae1976
Major General
bigjae1976's Avatar
719
Rep
7,318
Posts

Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (15)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Running a lot of negative camber with toe out will wear the tire wicked fast.

I ran a little toe out (1/16" per side/1/8" total) when I was at max stock camber but not at -2.5 camber. The added negative camber will dial out most of the understeer inherent to the car.

General statement...Driver's can also induce understeer and alignments won't fix that.
__________________
2015 F34 328iX GT Glacier Silver
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue
2004 E46 M3 Imola Red
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2019, 04:49 PM   #110
rhyary
Captain
United_States
171
Rep
693
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Running a lot of negative camber with toe out will wear the tire wicked fast.

I ran a little toe out (1/16" per side/1/8" total) when I was at max stock camber but not at -2.5 camber. The added negative camber will dial out most of the understeer inherent to the car.

General statement...Driver's can also induce understeer and alignments won't fix that.
Got back from alignment.
This is what I have now.
Will see tire wear with this setup
.
.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST