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      08-06-2018, 07:46 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Best lap so far in 2018 with DSC off and third day on Yoko ADO8R
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Have a coach jump in the car with you. I was running 1:40s the other day in basically a stock car with kw clubsports and hankook rs4s. Your car should be much faster.
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      08-06-2018, 08:36 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherry-m3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Best lap so far in 2018 with DSC off and third day on Yoko ADO8R
.
.
Have a coach jump in the car with you. I was running 1:40s the other day in basically a stock car with kw clubsports and hankook rs4s. Your car should be much faster.
I wouldn't trivialize the difference between 1:40s and 1:38s.
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      08-07-2018, 09:37 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I wouldn't trivialize the difference between 1:40s and 1:38s.
No trivialization, but if I had my pirelli trofeos... there's the 2+ seconds a lap.

A second party can point out things you dont even realize you're doing.
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      08-07-2018, 05:50 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherry-m3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I wouldn't trivialize the difference between 1:40s and 1:38s.
No trivialization, but if I had my pirelli trofeos... there's the 2+ seconds a lap.

A second party can point out things you dont even realize you're doing.
sounds interesting. what is your (or any stock M3) best time at NYST?
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      08-11-2018, 12:24 PM   #159
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[Update]
Plenty of track time yesterday with GotTrackLi.
20 min sessions and gorgeous weather.

Tires were what they were.
Rear was 5th track day on ADO8R
Front was PS4S 265/30/19 that I had laying around from last year road set.

Again 1:38 and 1:39 lap times with lots of 1:40 1:42. The PS4S definitely complains more than the ADOR8 275/30/19.

JRZ adjustments, another +1 on the shaft on all 4 corners compares to the printed sheet above. I like it.

I am now pushing the car with DSC off as hard as I do with DSC on.

Turn 18 is now mostly 49mph with few 50mph.

There are other 44-45mph corners I need to get to 50mph and 1:36 will be insight.

My next new set of tires will be the Toyo Proxa R888R for the Sep track days.

PSI Hot. I mostly on 40psi hot.
The next track day, still on ADO8R and PS4S I am going to try 36 hot. I don't really care experimenting with this set.

BK harness bar was on sale at Turner for $580 shipped. I couldn't resist and ordered. So for next track day I should have a place to mount the GoPro. :-)

Here is 1:39.x
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Attached Images
  
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      08-18-2018, 07:11 AM   #160
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Some random thoughts because it is not a track day today so might as well write about track days. Thoughts about this year efforts:

1. I hear you guys about instructor. But please keep in mind that although this is my second year on the E92, I have 15 years of track days on the Ducati. So while the skill is not directly translated to 4 wheels, I am not new to track days including the risks, margin of safety, instructions, race line analysis, etc etc. Anyway, I did spend a day with professional instructor and it was very beneficial. However, at this point not everyone that jump into my passenger seat can provide useful information.

2. I absolutely need to be a better driver. I am not disputing any of the criticism related to my lack of skills.

3. I have no problem going slower now to go faster later. I have no problem experimenting with settings, tires, lines. I keep the track as the constant parameter and experiment with anything else.

4. Conflicting Internet advise. While I was advised that no one win HPDE, experiment with the equipment seems to be frowned upon. I failed to understand why

5. Experiment with settings does not lead to a straight line improvement. If I try rear settings, the balance of the car will be disturbed, BUT my butt gets to understand the rear better. (words were chosen carefully to make the point)

6. It all leads to this. 40mph turns. The last track day I had followed a Corvette that took all the slow corners faster than I did. I was able to keep with him long enough to see his lines but after two laps he gained enough of a gap that we can say he was "gone". The point was that no matter what line he took, he was faster than I was at the slow corners. I had a similar experience with a GT3.

7. There is somewhat trivialization of the fact that every track for a given car has "easy time" and "hard time" to accomplish. At NYST for stock E92 1:41-1:44 is pretty easy to accomplish given few laps. The 1:38-1:40 you need some aftermarket equipment. The 1:36-1:38 is very hard and a very skilled driver may accomplish it. If you take all my fast segment from all my laps, you can get to 1:36. I can't because I am not skilled enough, but a good driver can. 1:34-1:36 required slicks and gutted E92. probably without supercharger to make the nose lighter. A Corvette and GT3 can do 1:36 like my E92 can do 1:39 from what I can see. And yes I do understand that the GT3 and the Corvettes have different drivers.

8. So I think half way through the season, and taking everything into consideration, I need to improve the front understeer to go any faster for the level of risk I am willing to take.

9. My goal first and for most is to go as fast as I can while managing traction on a specific day with a specific weather on specific tires and settings and bringing home the M3 shining.

10. My best accomplishment this year is to be on par with DSC off/on. while on average I am not faster with DSC off, even though my best time this year was DSC off, It allows me to learn car control better which I believe will lead to better skills.


I do welcome any thoughts and feedback you guys can provide. I read carefully everything and adjust accordingly. For example to turn off the "power" suggestion was brilliant.
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      08-18-2018, 08:14 AM   #161
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I'll offer some feedback.

Firstly, I admire the journey and you're commitment to improve.

Most of the feedback that I've seen offered to you but that IMO you've been somewhat dismissive of is along the lines of the following:

4 way suspensions are incredibly difficult to tune, so you need to work on reducing the variability of the driver before you will be able to truly see the impact of changes to the suspension.

To this end, based on your car experience and the videos that you've posted you still need better instruction to clean up your lines. I don't have any time at NYST but you and I have the same number of track days at LRP. I believe your car is supercharged. I drive an E46 M3 making 330 rwhp. My very first session I was at 1:00 and was at 56.85 by my 5th session. I think you were in the 1:04 to 1:06 range. What's the difference - coaching and consistency (and tires!).

Finally, there are no 40 mph turns - there may be turns YOU take at 40 mph - the rest of us just call them slow turns, but don't set a limit on how fast to take them. One thing my coached help me to understand on slow turns is that yes, you can usually take them quicker, but it is often more important to get the car placed properly in these slow speed turns so that you can get better exit speeds by being able to get to throttle sooner. Think left hander at LRP. Who really cares how fast you take this corner as long as you can be lined up on the left side at end of inside curbing and be able to go to 100% throttle on the transition between it and the right hander to no name straight. In summary, car placement in slow corners is the most important element.

I will agree with you that all instruction is not helpful and maybe that's why you're more inclined to self experiment. But I would say that any competent advanced driver (and there are a few on this forum) can easily review video with you and offer helpful input. A good coach does even more.

Not many of us know NYST, so can't help you with specifics, but my cursory review of your videos showed you missing apexes and coasting in many places. I can give you a very detailed assessment of your LRP video if you want since many of the concepts translate from track to track.
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      08-18-2018, 02:07 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I'll offer some feedback.

Firstly, I admire the journey and you're commitment to improve.

Most of the feedback that I've seen offered to you but that IMO you've been somewhat dismissive of is along the lines of the following:

4 way suspensions are incredibly difficult to tune, so you need to work on reducing the variability of the driver before you will be able to truly see the impact of changes to the suspension.

To this end, based on your car experience and the videos that you've posted you still need better instruction to clean up your lines. I don't have any time at NYST but you and I have the same number of track days at LRP. I believe your car is supercharged. I drive an E46 M3 making 330 rwhp. My very first session I was at 1:00 and was at 56.85 by my 5th session. I think you were in the 1:04 to 1:06 range. What's the difference - coaching and consistency (and tires!).

Finally, there are no 40 mph turns - there may be turns YOU take at 40 mph - the rest of us just call them slow turns, but don't set a limit on how fast to take them. One thing my coached help me to understand on slow turns is that yes, you can usually take them quicker, but it is often more important to get the car placed properly in these slow speed turns so that you can get better exit speeds by being able to get to throttle sooner. Think left hander at LRP. Who really cares how fast you take this corner as long as you can be lined up on the left side at end of inside curbing and be able to go to 100% throttle on the transition between it and the right hander to no name straight. In summary, car placement in slow corners is the most important element.

I will agree with you that all instruction is not helpful and maybe that's why you're more inclined to self experiment. But I would say that any competent advanced driver (and there are a few on this forum) can easily review video with you and offer helpful input. A good coach does even more.

Not many of us know NYST, so can't help you with specifics, but my cursory review of your videos showed you missing apexes and coasting in many places. I can give you a very detailed assessment of your LRP video if you want since many of the concepts translate from track to track.
Thank you very much, Moose, for your feedback.

I am installing the BK harness bar this week and that will give me a place to mount the GoPro.

My running coach in high school told me once that "if you want to make better lap times, you will need to run faster.

Because my tendency to seek advice, I get a lot of suggestions that I found not helpful. But I assure you that I take very seriously suggestions that make me a better driver and that lead to a faster lap time.

I am looking forward to post videos and hear suggestions.

About my day at LRP, I was on cheap road tires from Tire Rack and run three sessions with Track Night organization. The front were 2013 Kumho and the rear were 2014 Yoko. I had no interest in going any faster that I was going and still had a great time. Having said that your times were very impressive.
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      08-21-2018, 06:34 AM   #163
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Tires plans have changed.
I wanted to try the Proxes R888R as a step up from the ADO8R. Meaning going from 180/200 tire to 100.

However, I was only able to get 2 265/30/19. The 295/30/19 were backordered. Price was ridiculous high @ $336 or something like that.

Then I saw that I can do Proxes RR for a set of four @ $1000.

Sizes are limited, So I got a set of 235/35/19 and 295/30/19.

These will be mounted for my Sep 7th and then the three day event 14th,15,16th.

They slick or semi slick? I have no idea what to expect from the slick but narrower tire up front in term of understeer. But it sure is worth trying. I got two sets for the price of one Troffeo R set.

Would love to hear about this idea and more importantly some pointers about slicks vs 200 tires.
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      08-21-2018, 03:16 PM   #164
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235's? now you're just trying to have an understeering car.
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      08-21-2018, 04:36 PM   #165
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235's? now you're just trying to have an understeering car.
My hope is that slicks means something.
otherwise, it is simply cost issue. For $1100 delivered, mounted and balanced it will be going fast enough.
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      08-21-2018, 04:39 PM   #166
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Doesn't mean jack shit when they are blatantly unbalanced.
You're better off running 235's squared and working on weight transfer and being smooth than this wonky setup.

You're trying to remove inconsistencies this whole time and then you go and try a completely new tire with a huge size change. It was a waste of money.
I don't mean to be harsh, but I don't know what else to say. Still a learning experience, I guess.
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      08-21-2018, 05:02 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Doesn't mean jack shit when they are blatantly unbalanced.
You're better off running 235's squared and working on weight transfer and being smooth than this wonky setup.

You're trying to remove inconsistencies this whole time and then you go and try a completely new tire with a huge size change. It was a waste of money.
I don't mean to be harsh, but I don't know what else to say. Still a learning experience, I guess.
Exactly.
Learning experience.
I don't mind experimenting.
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      08-21-2018, 05:03 PM   #168
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Tracking with one hand tied behind your back could be called an experiment too, but not a good one.

Try 275/35/18 nitto nt01's.
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      08-21-2018, 05:16 PM   #169
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This must be so frustrating for you guys to read this. It's frustrating for me and I haven't a clue on tracking a car.
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      08-21-2018, 05:22 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Tracking with one hand tied behind your back could be called an experiment too, but not a good one.

Try 275/35/18 nitto nt01's.
I can't fit 18" over bbk.

Out of ignorance, I am not ready to say that 235/35 slick contributes more or less to understeer than 265/30 300 (ps4s) or 275/30 200 (ado8r).

But I would definitely know once I tried. I measure every lap and will be reporting what I find.

Even if my lap time is slower, I will be having fun trying to go as fast as the equipment will let me on that specific day.

Anyway, I take it that your feedback is that it would be better to try $2000 slick with the correct size rather than $1000 slick with slightly "improvised" size. So I do want to say thank you for your feedback and it may turn out that you are 100% correct. I am not saying it sarcastically. I sincerely appreciate your opinion.
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      08-21-2018, 05:38 PM   #171
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[Update]
Changing subject from tires.
The BK harness bar is installed and is quit impressive stout fit. The unit I bought from Turner turned out to be an odd size of 36" at the rear seats side.

After talking to Ian at BK and measured the distance between to two rear bracket to be 37.25". Ian had a bar build for that spec and shipped it over to me in one day. It has arrived today and I got it installed in 10 minutes.

I am very very impressed with BK customer service.

The next project will be to figure out how to get a sub strap mounting point without losing the subwoofer. A man has to have his bass on White Stripes' Seven Nation Army on the way to the track.
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      08-21-2018, 05:59 PM   #172
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18"Apex will clear most BBK's. What is your set up?
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      08-21-2018, 06:03 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
18"Apex will clear most BBK's. What is your set up?
18" will not clear my setup and the 19" ZCP does not clear my setup as well.

Give me some credit please. I am not known for making up facts.
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      08-21-2018, 06:09 PM   #174
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
18"Apex will clear most BBK's. What is your set up?
18" will not clear my setup and the 19" ZCP does not clear my setup as well.

Give me some credit please. I am not known for making up facts.
What's your setup? All the guys I compete with in NASA that run E92's are all on 18's and they all have BBK. I am not challenging your facts just asking what BBK you run.
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      08-21-2018, 07:33 PM   #175
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He has some carbon brake setup. I would pull those off and put Performance Friction or AP BBK in place and get some 18" wheels with a proper square tire setup.

Tires are the most critical element of performance driving and with all the other mods in place it's crazy to be under valuing the important of a proper setup and good tires.
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      08-21-2018, 09:10 PM   #176
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He has some carbon brake setup. I would pull those off and put Performance Friction or AP BBK in place and get some 18" wheels with a proper square tire setup.
.
my objective is to go as fast and as safe as i can with the equipment I chose to have. I have no idea if 18" inch wheel setup will be faster, but this is not my objective. I have 19" wheels and limited by the choice of tires available and by the prices of those tires. That perhaps not the fastest setup possible and I am ok with that.

While the choice of 295 and 235 seems ridiculous, it will be tested and I will be the first one to admit it was a terrible choice for $1100 if the lap time is horrible. But if the lap time is faster, then I am ok with that too.

Beef, my objective is not "trying to remove inconsistencies this whole time" . My car is very consistent and stable at almost all of my track days except one where i had the sway bars cranked to too stiff of a settings. My objective this year is to get to 1:36 range.

Tires are very important. When I was on the cheap 220 type tires I was very consitent and stable at 1:41-1:44. There was nothing crazy about it. For $600 set of tires I was going only that fast.

With a set of Ado8r I was going 1:38-1:39 but that was a lot more expensive.

And now I have a set for $1100 and i get to see what time can that brings.

I bet the main difference would be in the slow corners... :-)
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