Track forum general chit chat.

[roastbeef]

It's a very refreshing water beer for after-work tinkering in the garage.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Has anyone even heard of a stud just backing out?

We've all heard of studs breaking and there has been some good discussion on the subject... I've never heard of studs backing out or lugnuts becoming loose after a day of tracking.

Two no-no's...

1. Do not put anti seize on the stud threads. You'll need to account for that and increase the torque on the lug nuts.

2. You must use high heat Loctite - the red stuff. You'll back out the stud every time you break the lug nut loose. The stud will eventually back all the way out.

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

I meant when installed properly.

I often use my torque wrench to take off the nuts, and it always takes more than 90 lbs (click) to take them off (and I've never backed out a stud instead).

It seems to work well for me so far, and the track wheels have been on for whole weekends at ORP, which is probably as much lateral stress at any track out there.

I'm wondering if its easier on the studs, but Im not sure where the breakages are happening for others. Closer to the nut or closer to the disc/hub?

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Two no-no's...

1. Do not put anti seize on the stud threads. You'll need to account for that and increase the torque on the lug nuts.

In the autoX community, its a lifesaver with such frequent wheel changes. Prior to using a little antiseize, the treads would eventually wear out and gall up, typically breaking the stud when you tried to remove the nut. We'd have to replace nuts and studs more than yearly otherwise.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by Visceral

I often use my torque wrench to take off the nuts, and it always takes more than 90 lbs (click) to take them off (and I've never backed out a stud instead).

Why use a torque wrench? It's not great for accuracy if they are used to loosen things.

But needing more torque to loosen it than to tighten it is expected in most cases.

[Visceral]

I had an interesting scam experience in the want-ads here.

I posted a WTB: MCS 2 or 3-way remote ad, and before long I got a PM from Msporrt , who has one post and zero rep suggesting I email a gmail address ( jjkens919@gmail.com ) and ask about MCS "Bob" had for sale in Tuscaloosa.

This was the reply...

Hello,

Yes i have the MCS 2 remote setup for sale. Follow the below link or pictures,

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/...CM7o-tviwvjkDQ

These can be run as a true coilover in the rear or with the stock
spring perch with the included clevis mount. This also includes the
Ground control race caster/camber plates and Hyperco springs 600f
750r.

I am asking $2800 shipped. I will be shipping via UPS or FedEx which
ever you prefer and will take payment via Bank wire transfer. Whats
your shipping address?

Thanks
Bob Jenkins

I knew enough already to stop, but the Picasa album was also the wrong application posted in 2014.

A reverse image search of the album points to a 2014 sale by someone else on this same forum.

*sigh*

"and will take payment via Bank wire transfer"

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Why use a torque wrench? It's not great for accuracy if they are used to loosen things.

But needing more torque to loosen it than to tighten it is expected in most cases.

I have a weird OCD for calibrating my torque wrenches at least annually. They're never off by more than 2-3 lb/ft. I agree it should always take more to loosen, but it wouldnt take 90 lb/ft if they'd backed out.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Visceral

In the autoX community, its a lifesaver with such frequent wheel changes. Prior to using a little antiseize, the treads would eventually wear out and gall up, typically breaking the stud when you tried to remove the nut. We'd have to replace nuts and studs more than yearly otherwise.

The threads gall up from the wheel being dragged across them. Don't do that and you won't have issues.

No offense...but you're doing it all wrong. You can use your torque wrench to take off the nuts but your putting a lot of wear on an expensive and calibrated tool.

I follow my routine above except I use a battery impact on my lugs with an 80-88 ft/lb torque stick. I only pull out the torque wrench to do 1 torque check. Never had a wheel stud issue.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Visceral

I often use my torque wrench to take off the nuts, and it always takes more than 90 lbs (click) to take them off (and I've never backed out a stud instead).

It seems to work well for me so far, and the track wheels have been on for whole weekends at ORP, which is probably as much lateral stress at any track out there.

I'm wondering if its easier on the studs, but Im not sure where the breakages are happening for others. Closer to the nut or closer to the disc/hub?

I wouldn't use a torque wrench to loosen lug nuts. Invest in a high torque impact gun for wheels. Makes life a whole lot easier.

[ayao]

Originally Posted by Visceral

I have a weird OCD for calibrating my torque wrenches at least annually. They're never off by more than 2-3 lb/ft. I agree it should always take more to loosen, but it wouldnt take 90 lb/ft if they'd backed out.

Do you calibrate yourself or have it done by ... a torque wrench calibrating business?

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by ayao

Do you calibrate yourself or have it done by ... a torque wrench calibrating business?

use
https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-20741A-...l+torque+meter
and an old 30mm in a vice.

then adjust the torque wrench. My Craftsman have an allen wrench under the plastic cap on the very end of the handle to adjust with a 6mm allen.

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

The threads gall up from the wheel being dragged across them. Don't do that and you won't have issues.

No offense...but you're doing it all wrong. You can use your torque wrench to take off the nuts but your putting a lot of wear on an expensive and calibrated tool.

I follow my routine above except I use a battery impact on my lugs with an 80-88 ft/lb torque stick. I only pull out the torque wrench to do 1 torque check. Never had a wheel stud issue.

I appreciate the input, but I'm a lot more graceful than dragging the wheels across the studs, as are most of the rest of us who do a lot of AutoX. I'd rather not put my wheels on to torque with an impact either

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Visceral

I appreciate the input, but I'm a lot more graceful than dragging the wheels across the studs, as are most of the rest of us who do a lot of AutoX. I'd rather not put my wheels on to torque with an impact either

Why? 80 ft/lbs is the same with an impact or by hand. I would be more careful with a smaller or aluminum fastener but the studs are hardened grade 10.9 steel. I ran the same studs for 4 years on a car with lots of tire changes. Sometimes 3-4 changes per weekend in an effort to maximize tire life...cuz tires ain't free!

This application should not use anti seize since the fastener is supposed to be under tension is which is what the torque spec achieves. Anti-seize makes it easier for the nut to back out. You can do some bench experiments to find out what the torque spec should be to achieve the same clamping force with anti-seize but its probably easier to install the lug nuts dry.

I believe BW sells some dry lube studs which might work better for you.

You're going against some tried and true methods and engineers who have figured this stuff out. I've done that before thinking I was much smarter. Always found out that wasn't the case.

Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings but if they're having issues with wheel studs then I'm 95% sure its due to installer incompetence.

[slicer]

Originally Posted by Visceral

In the autoX community, its a lifesaver with such frequent wheel changes. Prior to using a little antiseize, the treads would eventually wear out and gall up, typically breaking the stud when you tried to remove the nut. We'd have to replace nuts and studs more than yearly otherwise.

Never use a torque wrench to remove a bolt. Get a breaker bar or an impact. If in a pinch just be sure you set the torque very high to prevent it from clicking past the limit. You can put your wrench out of spec by excessively pushing past the torque setting. No point in having a torque wrench if it's out of spec.

I agree 100% with BigJae. Never put anti-seize on lugs. Factory torque spec is dry. You have no clue what that equates to with anti-seize. Again, why even use a torque wrench at that point?

I guess I'm late to the party. I repeated everything said above by others.

[SQ13]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Has anyone even heard of a stud just backing out?

We've all heard of studs breaking and there has been some good discussion on the subject... I've never heard of studs backing out or lugnuts becoming loose after a day of tracking.

Yes, I was swapping wheels today (at home) and noticed four rear studs were loose. I’m confused because I used red loctite. It’s been nearly two years, so I’m gonna go ahead and order a new set. Currently have Apex..should I get BW this time?

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by SQ13

Yes, I was swapping wheels today (at home) and noticed four rear studs were loose. I'm confused because I used red loctite. It's been nearly two years, so I'm gonna go ahead and order a new set. Currently have Apex..should I get BW this time?

I'm not the authority on this stuff, but I do like turner's dry lube offering.
I had their regular studs in the past and liked them. No weird residue like these apex studs do.

Mrf is offering titanium studs now... I'm going to take a serious look at those as well.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Two no-no's...

1. Do not put anti seize on the stud threads. You'll need to account for that and increase the torque on the lug nuts.

2. You must use high heat Loctite - the red stuff. You'll back out the stud every time you break the lug nut loose. The stud will eventually back all the way out.

I should have even more clear- I wasn't talking about locktite on lugnut threads... that's no bueno. I was addressing how some people tend to torque their nuts multiple times throughout the day.

[SQ13]

New wheels, ARC-8 18x9.5 ET22 in satin black (plastidipped grey). Traded my stock wheels for them. I like they grey finish because you can actually see the wheels, unlike my satin black ARC-8s.

Originally Posted by roastbeef

I'm not the authority on this stuff, but I do like turner's dry lube offering.
I had their regular studs in the past and liked them. No weird residue like these apex studs do.

Mrf is offering titanium studs now... I'm going to take a serious look at those as well.

$264 for a complete set tho. Even regular sud kit is expensive at $170. BW sells the “street” kit for $125.

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Why? 80 ft/lbs is the same with an impact or by hand. I would be more careful with a smaller or aluminum fastener but the studs are hardened grade 10.9 steel. I ran the same studs for 4 years on a car with lots of tire changes. Sometimes 3-4 changes per weekend in an effort to maximize tire life...cuz tires ain't free!

This application should not use anti seize since the fastener is supposed to be under tension is which is what the torque spec achieves. Anti-seize makes it easier for the nut to back out. You can do some bench experiments to find out what the torque spec should be to achieve the same clamping force with anti-seize but its probably easier to install the lug nuts dry.

I believe BW sells some dry lube studs which might work better for you.

You're going against some tried and true methods and engineers who have figured this stuff out. I've done that before thinking I was much smarter. Always found out that wasn't the case.

Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings but if they're having issues with wheel studs then I'm 95% sure its due to installer incompetence.

My feelings aren't hurt.

I built these procedures over 20 years of 30+ wheel changes a year.

I used to use a battery powered impact wrench (when they first came out I thought it might be the killer mobile app) and began to notice the threads wearing out more quickly. I'm still a fan of making the final check with a torque wrench. For a few years the regional trophies were engraved torque wrenches and so between my wife and I we have a stack. Not that any have worn out... with annual calibration each torque wrench has lasted really well. We used to have to replace studs every two years until I started using light anti seize on the bolts. It has significantly extended the life of the threads.

In 20 years, I've never had a single bolt or nut back out, and when I'm exploring a new car and it's studs and bolts, I always take a couple bolts off with the torque wrench to see what it takes to get them off. I don't wear out or skew my torque wrenches. I also have never had a stud break.

So... the processes you describe, I've tried. They don't work for me. The way I do it does, and has done for at least 10 years now exactly the same (I finally had to try the anti-seize on a new '06 STi that I was chewing up studs with. The STi, on Hoosier A7s, never had an issue after that).

I realize that with lubricant, less of the torque goes into friction and more goes into stretching the bolt. I haven't broken a bolt this way in 10 years. I'm pretty confident that the bolts can take what feels like a 10% variance.

Also, my studs dont back out of the hub even though I dont apply locktite or tighten them any more than snug.

This all works for me and is what I've learned form experience. No pressure for anyone else to use it.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by SQ13

New wheels, ARC-8 18x9.5 ET22 in satin black (plastidipped grey). Traded my stock wheels for them. I like they grey finish because you can actually see the wheels, unlike my satin black ARC-8s.

$264 for a complete set tho. Even regular sud kit is expensive at $170. BW sells the "street" kit for $125.

This is the crap on my studs I was taking about... it's not locktite. It's some other shit that my turner studs didn't have. I'd pay extra not to have it.

your e46 looks great, by the way. the e46 holds a special place in my heart... my first car was an e46 tiag 325ci, never had an e46 m3, but i liked them alot.

[135]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i'm just going to stick to two years. as much as i don't like taking off visibly "ok" parts, 20 unbroken studs is a small sacrifice to the gods of speed every two years... they gods of speed appreciate non-broken parts from time to time.

To appease and win the favour of the gods of speed, you must sacrifice virgin parts. Buy a new set of studs and nuts and then throw them in the bin/trash. Good karma.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by 135

To appease and win the favour of the gods of speed, you must sacrifice virgin parts. Buy a new set of studs and nuts and then throw them in the bin/trash. Good karma.

Damn, no wonder I'm so slow. I've been giving them cracked rotors and bare pad backing plates this whole time.