M3, M4, or Other?

[prolific]

I know this is a BMW (M, specifically) forum, so the bias will inherently be there. Which is fine, because these cars are awesome. I come from a family of BMW drivers (father, uncles, cousins, etc.) while I myself currently sit in an Audi - figured I'd switch things up a bit.

I've always wanted an M, so I think for the next ride, that'll be a possibility. I'm curious, however, as I look around: what are my other choices? Generally speaking, and (more or less) in the same conversation, here is the list I've come up with. What would you choose, and why? Am I silly for considering any of these options? Am I overlooking a model or two, one's that I failed to mention?

1) '08+ BMW M3 - price would be great; would look for something low mileage, baby'd - probably hard to come by nowadays? Throw a supercharger in it, call it a day.

2) '09+ Nissan GT-R - again, probably could find "a bargain" out there; thing is obviously a beast, interior not as nice as the BMW, and Audi's of the world. Same issue as the M3: how easy could you find one of these things?

3) Audi RS5 - coming from an A5, then an S5, and currently an A5, I'm an Audi fan. RS5 is definitely in this tier, and combines the style/interior profile with that quattro that Northeastern drivers such as myself enjoy. Could probably find a decent deal here as well.

4) Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG (507?) - arguably the best sounding car of the group, and definitely would be a "different, unique" car in my area, so I'd factor that in.

5) BMW M4 - if I'm looking to spend a bit more money, I think I'd simply pony up here. Again, I've always wanted an M, and the 4's are sexy.

I'd daily drive, for the most part, or at least until the weather turns. Not a big track guy, personally.

[BRBM]

OK....here goes my .02 cents.

First off, you've always want an M and your choices are solid; nothing left out in my view. A good, balanced, handful of choices that could easily be my list, too. So, if I got indecisive, M3 is my #1 default choice........M4, #1a. That leaves C63 507 Edition, RS5, and Skyline GTR (Yeah, I said it ....still haven't gotten over them dropping the iconic nameplate.)

But, like me again, you seem to be the - at best - only occasional track person that doesn't care for the increased likelihood of ending up in a ditch during inclement weather.........especially when driving a FWD or RWD vehicle.

That eliminates the C63, though I can say it is a surprisingly stable wet weather car from my own experience. GTR goes to the wayside next, as you've stated it's a daily driver you're seeking. Yes, I believe the GTR is a legit daily driver, but on balance, not the choice now.

So, RS5 is this car matchmaker's choice if making the call. Super luxurious and badass in the rain like all quattro cars bought by my family members dating back to the old Audi A10 (A6/S6/RS6 equivalent). Hall-of-Fame worthy 4.2 V-8 with awesome sound. The only thing better? The not for the U.S. market RS6 Avant.

Some say RS5 is not involved enough/rather boring. Nor do I care for Audi cars' traditional front heaviness (alot of engine over front axle) which leads to alot of mechanical trickery to balance things out (using Audi Drive Select....standard, I think, on the RS).

Still, like Ford with the last generation Mustang's live axle, Audi (commendably) has also done wonders while sticking with it's usual platform. So my dissatisfaction with either issue was never a dealbreaker (I dig Mustang GTs alot).

And that is why the RS5 is something I have on my short list for the next vehicle in the garage - something AWD, in other words.

[Ezio]

In regards to GTR. Get a 2012 or newer.

If i had to pick between these cars. I think i would end up with the 507. because i already owned a M3.

[-BEASTMW-]

Also worth considering the last-gen CTS-V and new ATS-V.

[Hurricane]

I've owned the E92 M3, B8 RS5, and C63 507. If you like the M4 go for it! I chose the C63 507 and absolutely love it! DO NOT GET THE RS5. I have a write up on all these cars less the M4 if you want a full review.

[prolific]

Originally Posted by BRBM

OK....here goes my .02 cents.

First off, you've always want an M and your choices are solid; nothing left out in my view. A good, balanced, handful of choices that could easily be my list, too. So, if I got indecisive, M3 is my #1 default choice........M4, #1a. That leaves C63 507 Edition, RS5, and Skyline GTR (Yeah, I said it ....still haven't gotten over them dropping the iconic nameplate.)

But, like me again, you seem to be the - at best - only occasional track person that doesn't care for the increased likelihood of ending up in a ditch during inclement weather.........especially when driving a FWD or RWD vehicle.

That eliminates the C63, though I can say it is a surprisingly stable wet weather car from my own experience. GTR goes to the wayside next, as you've stated it's a daily driver you're seeking. Yes, I believe the GTR is a legit daily driver, but on balance, not the choice now.

So, RS5 is this car matchmaker's choice if making the call. Super luxurious and badass in the rain like all quattro cars bought by my family members dating back to the old Audi A10 (A6/S6/RS6 equivalent). Hall-of-Fame worthy 4.2 V-8 with awesome sound. The only thing better? The not for the U.S. market RS6 Avant.

Some say RS5 is not involved enough/rather boring. Nor do I care for Audi cars' traditional front heaviness (alot of engine over front axle) which leads to alot of mechanical trickery to balance things out (using Audi Drive Select....standard, I think, on the RS).

Still, like Ford with the last generation Mustang's live axle, Audi (commendably) has also done wonders while sticking with it's usual platform. So my dissatisfaction with either issue was never a dealbreaker (I dig Mustang GTs alot).

And that is why the RS5 is something I have on my short list for the next vehicle in the garage - something AWD, in other words.

I appreciate all the details in the reply - thank you!

This is honestly where my head is at, at the moment, as well.

Skyline is always something I've had my eye on. But, as you mentioned, not sure if it's really the most optimal daily driver option (not that it is, but does it make the most sense)?

I find myself coming back to the RS5 (again, all my Audi bias aside), and it may be the quattro that's pushing it over the top. I'll have my Jeep for the winter months, if necessary, but just having the option/confidence in the RS5 is great.

It's very close between the RS5, and the M's.

Originally Posted by Hurricane

I've owned the E92 M3, B8 RS5, and C63 507. If you like the M4 go for it! I chose the C63 507 and absolutely love it! DO NOT GET THE RS5. I have a write up on all these cars less the M4 if you want a full review.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the RS5, and why you're so passionately against it (these are my favorite reads, as it's a car I really like - perhaps I'm missing something).

Cheers fellas.

[MTrezzz]

I had a C63 Coupe (2012) & now E92 M3 (2013).
Either or you'll love both.
Both are unique in their own ways.

[BRBM]

Originally Posted by prolific

I appreciate all the details in the reply - thank you!

This is honestly where my head is at, at the moment, as well.

Skyline is always something I've had my eye on. But, as you mentioned, not sure if it's really the most optimal daily driver option (not that it is, but does it make the most sense)?

I find myself coming back to the RS5 (again, all my Audi bias aside), and it may be the quattro that's pushing it over the top. I'll have my Jeep for the winter months, if necessary, but just having the option/confidence in the RS5 is great.

It's very close between the RS5, and the M's.

Alrighty then....as the saying goes, 'great automotive minds think alike'. And it's good you mention your Jeep, something I didn't know and would like comment on........the ride.

Part of the reason I can never quite grasp what automotive journalists call a too firm or rough or stiff ride - essentially unsatisfactory - is because I spent several years driving Jeep CJ5s and CJ7s. So, rough ride to others feels fine to me. Long as I'm not bouncing up & down like a highly tuned, boy-racer Civic? I'm good!

My point, and not to make your decision any harder, is about the GTR.

In comparison with the other four, not the most optimal daily, as you stated. However, what if one gets an offer he or she can't refuse? I personally snatch that beast up so quickly and forget about the other four......but that's just me. Hey, both quattro and ATTESSA E-TS AWD systems are amongst the best, so no trade-off there.

Yes, the Nissan's ride is more on the firmer/performance side, but is it so much so that it's a showstopper? Well, absent any other issues, nothing a well-researched spring & shock upgrade can't fix........assuming I was to find it unbearable from day to day. Doubt it.

Still, haven't seen/heard a pattern of anyone reporting it's that bad, so maybe this AWD bad weather fighter is still an option.

What, do I work for the Nissan Motorsports division? Oh, no. Just pimpin' one of its decent products.

Originally Posted by MTrezzz

I had a C63 Coupe (2012) & now E92 M3 (2013).
Either or you'll love both.
Both are unique in their own ways.

Ah, yes. Aspiring to be just like you one day. Not to mention, nice to see another person who can appreciate both in-house tuners' expertise and different approaches to upping performance.

[LarThaL]

So what exactly is your budget? You live in Northeast and are looking for a daily driver, so foul weather capability is a factor, right? Or no?

I would rule out the Mercedes due to traction issues. And there isn't enough room in the wheel wells to even really fat rubber even if you wanted.

The e9x M3 can be driven in winter with proper snow tires. Obviously, a good choice. I would not get the f8x M3/4 in the Northeast as an only car. Too much early torque for RWD.

RS5 is a great car. Combines all the attributes of what you are looking for. Not quite as sharp as an M car, but for a Northeast DD, it is a nice choice.

Let me throw something else out there......go drive the new S3. I was totally surprised by this car. It is very agile, quicker than you would ever expect, has great steering feel, the best stock exhaust I have ever heard on a 4-cylinder motor, has huge aftermarket potential, and is the best looking Audi sedan IMO.

You can also buy one new, completely built to spec for the price of many of your other choices used.

Other choices are to get a loaded up built to spec 335xi, or a CLA45 AMG. Again, this assumes you car is a DD for the Northeast.

[djDori_C]

Depends if you're looking at 6MT or DCT/PDK.
If you're looking at 6MT then you can say goodbye to the Skyline and the AMG.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by prolific

1) '08+ BMW M3 - price would be great; would look for something low mileage, baby'd - probably hard to come by nowadays? Throw a supercharger in it, call it a day.

2) '09+ Nissan GT-R - again, probably could find "a bargain" out there; thing is obviously a beast, interior not as nice as the BMW, and Audi's of the world. Same issue as the M3: how easy could you find one of these things?

3) Audi RS5 - coming from an A5, then an S5, and currently an A5, I'm an Audi fan. RS5 is definitely in this tier, and combines the style/interior profile with that quattro that Northeastern drivers such as myself enjoy. Could probably find a decent deal here as well.

4) Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG (507?) - arguably the best sounding car of the group, and definitely would be a "different, unique" car in my area, so I'd factor that in.

5) BMW M4 - if I'm looking to spend a bit more money, I think I'd simply pony up here. Again, I've always wanted an M, and the 4's are sexy.

First off, I think this is a great list of cars and I'd love to own all of them--one of which, I currently do!

I think the GTR is in a much different class than everything else on the list. If you are looking into a GTR, you should also be looking at a Porsche 997tt, IMO. And from that point, I'd choose between those two.

I've extensively driven a C63 (not the 507 edition) and it's an absolutely wonderful car. It has a very different character than the e9x M3. The M3 is much smoother in how it goes about its job. The M3 can do a pretty good imitation of a luxury car, but you can also drive the hell out of it with a smile on your face. The C63 never lets you forget how hardcore it is. The seats are aggressively bolstered (more than the M3, IMO), the suspension is much stiffer, and the exhaust is much louder. Having said that, I might have actually bought one if I could find an updated ('12+) version.

The RS5 is an interesting choice. Although I'm a big VW guy (I've owned many a VW and am on year 15 with my Corrado), I'm not a big Audi guy. I like the R8 and the RS cars though. I never drove an RS5 though as they are generally out of my price range. The only thing I would say is to not get another audi, since you've had the same car several times. I love variety now that I can afford to get into some more interesting vehicles.

To me, the choice comes down to the following:
1) Can I afford a GTR and 997tt? If yes, I wouldn't move down to any of the other cars
2) If for whatever reason I don't/can't get those two, I would drive an M3 and C63. Whatever I liked best would be the car I end up with.

[Ultra M]

stay euro !

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by prolific

I appreciate all the details in the reply - thank you!

This is honestly where my head is at, at the moment, as well.

Skyline is always something I've had my eye on. But, as you mentioned, not sure if it's really the most optimal daily driver option (not that it is, but does it make the most sense)?

I find myself coming back to the RS5 (again, all my Audi bias aside), and it may be the quattro that's pushing it over the top. I'll have my Jeep for the winter months, if necessary, but just having the option/confidence in the RS5 is great.

It's very close between the RS5, and the M's.

Here is a link to my write up. The RS5 is a great vehicle. However it was the least satisfying of all the cars I have owned.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the RS5, and why you're so passionately against it (these are my favorite reads, as it's a car I really like - perhaps I'm missing something).

Cheers fellas.

Here is a link to my write up. The RS5 is a great vehicle. However it was the least satisfying of all the cars I have owned.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1133840

Hope this helps your decision.

[prolific]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

Here is a link to my write up. The RS5 is a great vehicle. However it was the least satisfying of all the cars I have owned.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1133840

Hope this helps your decision.

This is great - really awesome write-up and comprehensive review. Thank you!

Now, when you say cars are "not satisfying" for you, I'm curious: how do you drive? Do you find yourself at the track once a week? Where do the Audi's fall short for you?

[8k4]

For a DD forget anything other than the RS5 imo. Winter is not pleasant in the M even with snows, nothing comparable to a Quattro. The Nissan will leave you disappointed as it does some things well but the overall package isn't there, especially a 09

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by prolific

This is great - really awesome write-up and comprehensive review. Thank you!

Now, when you say cars are "not satisfying" for you, I'm curious: how do you drive? Do you find yourself at the track once a week? Where do the Audi's fall short for you?

I will preface my comments by stating i love the Audi brand. However, I am not a huge fan of their sports offerings. The S and RS lines are fantastic cars but they left me wanting more.

The RS5 is a looker. A quick test drive and you will fall in love. 30 days later you will begin to regret the decision. The car needs more torque. At 4000 lbs the car makes a max torque of 317 lb-ft. The AWD off the line will make you think the car has over 400 lb-ft, but when you are moving the low torque number lets you feel every pound of that 4000. The E92 M3 while it has only 295 lb-ft the 350 less pounds of weight made it feel torquier. The car is quick, not fast.

The RS5 is incredibly easy to drive in all conditions. Unfortunately this supreme usability comes at a cost........lack of involvement. There is zero steering feel. Combine the steering with the torque vectoring diff and you have zero feel in the car. The car does all the work.

The M3/M4 and 507 variants provide the involvement I was looking for. Both brands have torque ratings of 406 lb-ft and 457 lb-ft respectively. Both variants are absolute animals and provide proper feedback to the steering wheel. I am very happy with my decision to purchase the 507. They are extremely rare in New England. It's moronically fast, ostentatious, loud, and I love every thing about it. I get tons of comments and questions about the car. More so than all the other cars I have owned.

I made the decision to purchase the RS5 due to its rarity and all year usability. Although the car is rare there are tons of them New England unlike the 507. I also made the moronic decision to purchase a $85,000 sports sedan to handle the 10-15 total snow days a year. I should have just bought a $5000 winter beater for those days and went with the 507 from the jump. I drive the 507 year round with winters for the temps.

I strongly encourage you to drive all of these cars prior to buying. The M4 and 507 will leave you grinning from ear to ear.

[kaede]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

I will preface my comments by stating i love the Audi brand. However, I am not a huge fan of their sports offerings. The S and RS lines are fantastic cars but they left me wanting more.

The RS5 is a looker. A quick test drive and you will fall in love. 30 days later you will begin to regret the decision. The car needs more torque. At 4000 lbs the car makes a max torque of 317 lb-ft. The AWD off the line will make you think the car has over 400 lb-ft, but when you are moving the low torque number lets you feel every pound of that 4000. The E92 M3 while it has only 295 lb-ft the 350 less pounds of weight made it feel torquier. The car is quick, not fast.

The RS5 is incredibly easy to drive in all conditions. Unfortunately this supreme usability comes at a cost........lack of involvement. There is zero steering feel. Combine the steering with the torque vectoring diff and you have zero feel in the car. The car does all the work.

The M3/M4 and 507 variants provide the involvement I was looking for. Both brands have torque ratings of 406 lb-ft and 457 lb-ft respectively. Both variants are absolute animals and provide proper feedback to the steering wheel. I am very happy with my decision to purchase the 507. They are extremely rare in New England. It's moronically fast, ostentatious, loud, and I love every thing about it. I get tons of comments and questions about the car. More so than all the other cars I have owned.

I made the decision to purchase the RS5 due to its rarity and all year usability. Although the car is rare there are tons of them New England unlike the 507. I also made the moronic decision to purchase a $85,000 sports sedan to handle the 10-15 total snow days a year. I should have just bought a $5000 winter beater for those days and went with the 507 from the jump. I drive the 507 year round with winters for the temps.

I strongly encourage you to drive all of these cars prior to buying. The M4 and 507 will leave you grinning from ear to ear.

I agree with Hurricane. I love audi cars, it's just that should you go with the RS5, i can see most of the time it will leave you wanting more. The 4.2L V8 NA engine is a marvelous masterpeice, too bad its put into a super heavy car with 4wd with low torque numbers.

That being said, if you're coming from a less powerful Audi car (or if you haven't experienced any similar cars on the list you provided), then the RS5 will still feel like an awesome upgrade in terms of power and fun! However, again, for the premium you pay for the RS5, you might not find the increase in power and performance satisfying. Coupled with the fact that you have already driven the A5/S5 previously, the car might feel TOO familiar and not warrant the price you're paying for the "upgrade."

You mentioned that you do have a jeep for the winter months/icy snowy days, then i will be more inclined to choosing another vehicle other than the RS5. If you're purchasing new, for the price of RS5 you might be able to find a Used V8 Audi R8 which is a league above.

Here is my take:

E9x M3: will be an awesome car in the winter with the proper set of tires. Good low mileage non abused ones can be had at a much lower cost, the money you save can go towards tires/ maintenance/ mods. The engine is just as exotic as the RS5 and driving it and revving it out will reward you just as much/MORE than the RS5. Power and torque is lower, but you will feel just as quick due to the lower heft. I own a lightly modded NSX that i drive on occasion that gets enough attention, i love my E90 M3 for being a perfect sleeper car.

F8x M3/M4: have a nicer "upgraded" interior compared to the E9x. That however doesn't mean that the E9x interior looks dated at all. Engine feels no where as special as the rest of the list of cars you mentioned. To be honest, you can pitch money and mod a used 335i and make it similar to the F8x M3/M4. I used to own a E90 335i modded and it will eat most E9x M3's alive. HOWEVER, a M car is a M car afterall, it will definitely feel more special and the look of the new F8x M3 have that "in your face" aggressiveness that some might like. For winter applications, similar to the E9x M3, with dedicated tires and good light pedal work, i think it should be fine. I've also heard from my buddy that drive one that the TCS and computer interfere the throttle quite aggressively. If you have never experienced a turbo vehicle with large amount of torque, and if you do a lot of city driving, the F8x might just be the vehicle of choice.

C63 (507 or not): This is the monster. Torque, power, brutality, character, sound, crazy raw atomic power, you name it. The only downside, in the winter even with winter tires you will find yourself loosing traction and sliding everywhere. And also, you'll get to know your gas station attendants very very well. This car is the most gas guzzling vehicle for sure if you want to drive it like how its meant to be driven. When driven hard and aggressively (on track or mountain runs), it always had me on 110% focus and i feel like i am almost at the edge of screwing up and getting myself into a horrific crash/collision. THIS FEELING IS AWESOME! At least for me, the closer i put myself to death, the more i feel alive. And when I drive the car near its limits (which to be honest, i might not be anywhere close to it haha), its just pure heart pumping rush & adrenaline that makes me think back and shiver. Yes, the C63 is an epic machine, but then again, for a DD? I dont know... Personally, for DD i much preferred the E90 M3 that i have right now, no where near as beast mode, but it feels more refined, more comfortable, more civilized, more sleeper.

GTR: I never driven one. Buddy of mine owned one for a very short time and didn't quite like it. Beast for sure, but he mentioned that it lacks refinement. The engine doesn't "feel" engaging. Don't know what he meant by that... He did own lots of highly modded JDM vehicles, maybe it doesn't feel as "raw"? The sound it makes is lacking unless modded. The tires are 20".... so winter tires will cost a fortune (as for the RS5 as well). Tranny failed within 1 year of ownership. Misc electrical problems and his brakes went after a tracking session. Ya... i'll steer clear unless you really crave that GTR icon and or you're an absolute JDM/GTR diehard. I am sure with the right modification and money spend, the GTR will be an AWESOME DD. You can annihilate anything on the street. But the way i see it, it is more of a track toy than a DD.

Hope i gave you a little bit more to think about, but if i were in your position, i will switch things up and go for something other than the RS5. The RS5 is a very nice car no doubt, it's just that you have already had the other variants (A5/S5), time to experience something different? Personally my choices will be E9X M3/C63 Tie, F8X M3/M4, RS5/GTR Tie. For the price also, considering any P-cars? Good luck and cheers!

[TrevorM3]

^ i lol'd at your description of the c63. love the brutality of this car for sure. it's definitely abrupt, and best described as a hammer.

[ZEEM3R]

GTR or 507.

GTR because... well it's a GTR.

507 because you'll never drive it without smiling. And when you die in it cause you decided to go nuts since the car itself should be in a cage.. You'll go into the light smiling.

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by ZEEM3R

GTR or 507.

GTR because... well it's a GTR.

507 because you'll never drive it without smiling. And when you die in it cause you decided to go nuts since the car itself should be in a cage.. You'll go into the light smiling.

[kaede]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

+1