BMW inspired the new GT350

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

The whole premise of this thread is that BMW should get credit for the gt350. Funny considering its superior to every car in bmws lineup.

I realize you're trolling but at least try harder.

No, the OP's point was that BMW popularized the concept of putting high revving NA engines in affordable cars. You seem to be focusing on the crank shape while missing the point that the BMW and Mustang high-revving V8s share much more in cost, engine layout, practicality, and demographics.

But those unarguable points don't seem to fit your anti-BMW agenda.

[k3silk]

Originally Posted by Ezio

they would probably offer a auto if they had a good enough one to offer.

This is what I was thinking. They didn't have a fast auto set up to throw at this car and plus to develop that would cost to much. Its easier to say hey we are catering to "Real Car Drivers" approach. Lets face it Ford has no cars right now it is there only RWD car

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by k3silk

This is what I was thinking. They didn't have a fast auto set up to throw at this car and plus to develop that would cost to much. Its easier to say hey we are catering to "Real Car Drivers" approach. Lets face it Ford has no cars right now it is there only RWD car

ford only has the mustang on most days. (when they are not selling a GT supercar)

maybe when the new GT comes out the might have a decent auto.

[Harry Da Hamster]

Originally Posted by Ezio

ford only has the mustang on most days. (when they are not selling a GT supercar)

maybe when the new GT comes out the might have a decent auto.

I know this is referring to RWD cars, but the Focus ST and RS look pretty sick.

[K-M3]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

As impressive as the GT350 is (believe me, I would love to have one), you've got to hand it to BMW M engineers in producing the S65, which is nearly 10 year old technology (more if you count the S85). Output over 100 bhp/l, a torque curve that is flatter for a wider rpm range than the GT350, and a power curve that peaks right at redline in a perfect linear fashion (is actually shaped better than the GT350). And this was with cross-plane technology and at the time, the most sophisticated ECU ever produced capable of 200 MIPS, independent throttle bodies (really only seen in race engines), one of the highest flowing air intake systems ever produced and ionic spark control...it's crazy when you stop to think about it. Even the last gen Mustang Coyote engine engineers were unable to get much higher than 7,500 rpm because it was limited by the ECU's computational power.

This makes me really appreciate the what the M engineers accomplished, some technologies of which are still unparalleled nearly a decade later!

Well said sir ... Well said ... From a fellow S65 fanboy .... Salud!!!

[8k3]

Originally Posted by Ezio

they would probably offer a auto if they had a good enough one to offer.

A properly tuned ZF 8 speed is probably good enough for the masses. Jag if I recall has gone to that option with success

[ONEOF40 FS M3]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

As impressive as the GT350 is (believe me, I would love to have one), you've got to hand it to BMW M engineers in producing the S65, which is nearly 10 year old technology (more if you count the S85). Output over 100 bhp/l, a torque curve that is flatter for a wider rpm range than the GT350, and a power curve that peaks right at redline in a perfect linear fashion (is actually shaped better than the GT350). And this was with cross-plane technology and at the time, the most sophisticated ECU ever produced capable of 200 MIPS, independent throttle bodies (really only seen in race engines), one of the highest flowing air intake systems ever produced and ionic spark control...it's crazy when you stop to think about it. Even the last gen Mustang Coyote engine engineers were unable to get much higher than 7,500 rpm because it was limited by the ECU's computational power.

This makes me really appreciate the what the M engineers accomplished, some technologies of which are still unparalleled nearly a decade later!

Agree, it is an engineering marvel!

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by FNG

Someone dropped a lil too much acid. Delusional much?



I doubt it. It seems like nothing is really similar other than the crank configuration and bank angle. Shelby GT350 has a almost squared engine w/ 94mm bore and 93mm stroke, the Ferrari Italia has a significantly over squared engine with a 94mm bore and 81mm stroke. Shelby has OHV w/ pushrods, the Ferrari has OHC. I'm not going to claim i'm an engine design expert but based on that alone, i don't see the Ferrari resemblance.

Sorry, but the Ford engine is a DOHC V8. All current Mustang V8's have overhead camshafts.

[Beemdog]

I find it interesting that most all of Ford's hotrod variants are manual only. The ST Focus and Fiesta models are also 6-speed only. This is the opposite of what is going on in a lot of the Euro car companies, which tend to drop the manuals on high-end sports cars. Ford must not give a hoot about selling into the greater Los Angeles area (land of the Stop-N-Go freeway)!

[ufgtrs2007]

Originally Posted by Law

Agreed.

The S65 is a gem of an engine.
Those were the days when BMW's racing development was more or less correlated & contributed to the technical expertise in manufacturing M engines & vice-versa.

We should be glad we witnessed and experienced the golden era of BMW engineering

Agree

The S65 was a masterpiece, and the pinnacle of BMW M's naturally aspirated days. I'm honored to be a part of it while accepting the future direction of performance cars.

[Harry Da Hamster]

Originally Posted by DSilk

Sorry, but the Ford engine is a DOHC V8. All current Mustang V8's have overhead camshafts.

My bad

I guess i haven't ever really given Ford any interest.

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by ufgtrs2007

Agree

The S65 was a masterpiece, and the pinnacle of BMW M's naturally aspirated days. I'm honored to be a part of it while accepting the future direction of performance cars.

Do we really know what this is? If you look at history, performance cars have gone from NA(1950s-70s) to turbo (1980s/90s/early 2000s) back to NA, now back to turbo (mostly). There are still enough NA holdouts in production to lead me to believe that NA isn't dead yet.

[K_style]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

Do we really know what this is? If you look at history, performance cars have gone from NA(1950s-70s) to turbo (1980s/90s/early 2000s) back to NA, now back to turbo (mostly). There are still enough NA holdouts in production to lead me to believe that NA isn't dead yet.

Couldn't agree with you more...

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by FNG

Someone dropped a lil too much acid. Delusional much?



I doubt it. It seems like nothing is really similar other than the crank configuration and bank angle. Shelby GT350 has a almost squared engine w/ 94mm bore and 93mm stroke, the Ferrari Italia has a significantly over squared engine with a 94mm bore and 81mm stroke. Shelby has OHV w/ pushrods, the Ferrari has OHC. I'm not going to claim i'm an engine design expert but based on that alone, i don't see the Ferrari resemblance.

You are way behind...Ford has started using DOHC V8's in the Mustang back in 1996 with the SVT. The regular 4.6V8 had a SOHC back in 1996 and they went to a 3V OHC 4.6 V8 in 2005.

[Harry Da Hamster]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

You are way behind...Ford has started using DOHC V8's in the Mustang back in 1996 with the SVT. The regular 4.6V8 had a SOHC back in 1996 and they went to a 3V OHC 4.6 V8 in 2005.

Thanks or the info. I'll probably forget tomorrow.

[dragonsi]

I have a soft spot for Mustangs and I wanted to love the new one; but after seeing it in person, like others have mentioned, the interior quality is still lacking. It is definitely the most beautiful Mustang in a very long while, but if i'm going to nitpick- I find that the rear taillight design is still slightly awkward. It just doesn't/hasn't ever work-ed since the classic mustangs.

The new generation mustang has come a LONG way from its predecessors, but for now I think I'll wait and see what they do with the next generation.

Btw can you guys imagine a 5.2L S65??

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by dragonsi

I have a soft spot for Mustangs and I wanted to love the new one; but after seeing it in person, like others have mentioned, the interior quality is still lacking. It is definitely the most beautiful Mustang in a very long while, but if i'm going to nitpick- I find that the rear taillight design is still slightly awkward. It just doesn't/hasn't ever work-ed since the classic mustangs.

The new generation mustang has come a LONG way from its predecessors, but for now I think I'll wait and see what they do with the next generation.

Btw can you guys imagine a 5.2L S65??

Its really bothersome how european cars have the build,looks, and chassis. But less appealing engines(not counting the exotic). Where the American cars have monster S/C V8, or a high revving flat plane v8.

Give me american power with a german body.

[BRBM]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

Almost certain that the future M cars would not ditch the turbo. They'll add electric to it.

NA M engines are history in afraid. That said. I am a fan of the mustang 350 and 350r but won't ever get one because I can't stand the interiors. The noise is decent too but IMO more like AMG and just noisy, not refined like some of those NA M engines.

Time out!! Stop the bus, dammit. But first, excuse me for not having a better page to refer you to, just Wikipedia.........but they are accurate in this case, so here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...ne_of_the_Year

See for yourself, but credit to your "IMO", albeit not a factually valid statement.

Now, are you talking about the rude crude AMG 6.2 liter that won Int'l Performance Engine of the year in 2009 and 2010? A high-revving monster V8 that redlines @ 7100 and never stops pulling right past the 155 limiter? (Yes, 7100 is not the 4.0's 8300 or 8500 but it's high enough to be considered so).

Or how about the victorious AMG 5.4 V8 (2003), followed by the AMG 6.0 V12 in 2004??

Okay, okay..........the 5.0 V10 from M won in 2005-2007, but I'm already on record as proclaiming the 4.0 derived from it as having been grandfathered the award, too. Hey, it's the 8 of the same 10 cylinders tuned for another M car, right?

So for you to opine AMG engines are merely noisy and unrefined is quite revealing. Can't you appreciate solid and exemplary workmanship regardless of manufacturer or what you own?

Get a grip, though I didn't mean to blindside you, homie. Had to comment 'cause what I read was just damn ignorant, literally, of what AMG engines really are. What's next? You gonna say ALPINA puts out sh-- for powertrains? I think not. Even I know that'a be ignant, too. Ooops; never mind. Forgot you're a hardcore, tunnel visioned BMW loyalist; can't tell you jack poo.

Still, get it right! M can tune the hell out of an engine, as can Audi Quattro, AMG, Ford SVT, SRT, Cadillac V, ALPINA, Dinan, RennTech, etc., etc., to name a few. Hell, even Lexus F is in there.

.............."not refined like some of those NA M engines." What a load of crap.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by BRBM

Time out!! Stop the bus, dammit. But first, excuse me for not having a better page to refer you to, just Wikipedia.........but they are accurate in this case, so here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...ne_of_the_Year

See for yourself, but credit to your "IMO", albeit not a factually valid statement.

Now, are you talking about the rude crude AMG 6.2 liter that won Int'l Performance Engine of the year in 2009 and 2010? A high-revving monster V8 that redlines @ 7100 and never stops pulling right past the 155 limiter? (Yes, 7100 is not the 4.0's 8300 or 8500 but it's high enough to be considered so).

Or how about the victorious AMG 5.4 V8 (2003), followed by the AMG 6.0 V12 in 2004??

Okay, okay..........the 5.0 V10 from M won in 2005-2007, but I'm already on record as proclaiming the 4.0 derived from it as having been grandfathered the award, too. Hey, it's the 8 of the same 10 cylinders tuned for another M car, right?

So for you to opine AMG engines are merely noisy and unrefined is quite revealing. Can't you appreciate solid and exemplary workmanship regardless of manufacturer or what you own?

Get a grip, though I didn't mean to blindside you, homie. Had to comment 'cause what I read was just damn ignorant, literally, of what AMG engines really are. What's next? You gonna say ALPINA puts out sh-- for powertrains? I think not. Even I know that'a be ignant, too. Ooops; never mind. Forgot you're a hardcore, tunnel visioned BMW loyalist; can't tell you jack poo.

Still, get it right! M can tune the hell out of an engine, as can Audi Quattro, AMG, Ford SVT, SRT, Cadillac V, ALPINA, Dinan, RennTech, etc., etc., to name a few. Hell, even Lexus F is in there.

.............."not refined like some of those NA M engines." What a load of crap.

Easy chief

Don't get me wrong I love AMG, and compared to this generation M4 and C63 I prefer the noise the AMG makes. I'm not knocking the AMG and its performance or merits by any means. I simply commented about the sound it makes, no need to reference all of its accolades that are very much deserved for that car.

It's just that most AMG V8's (yours included) I've heard sound like an American V8 from a corvette or mustang (except the new mustang with the flat plane). It's an awful lot of volume without much character. Sure there are good sounding ones out there but sounds are subjective. Call me ignorant I don't care.

Here's just a quick youtube sample, but clearly the C63 is louder (although to my ear not necessarily better) and I know youtube obviously is different from real life but my opinion is unchanged having heard both in person. The C63 has that sort of american muscle V8 sound to it. I never said anything about the car being unable to perform as it seems you interpreted from my post

Anyway this discussion doesn't belong in a mustang versus thread. I really think you just misinterpreted my opinion of sound regarding AMG and mistook that as OMG BMW is better at everything compared to AMG poo which clearly is not my belief or remotely close to what I said. I have a ton of respect for your car as well as RS5's, there are just certain things that I prefer in the M3 and one of them is the sound. Perhaps I shouldn't have blanketed "All AMG's" which is what my comment implied, as technically I have only heard a handful of AMG's. But I have a bad habit of not elaborating on forums.

[shu5892001]

Originally Posted by BRBM

Time out!! Stop the bus, dammit. But first, excuse me for not having a better page to refer you to, just Wikipedia.........but they are accurate in this case, so here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...ne_of_the_Year

See for yourself, but credit to your "IMO", albeit not a factually valid statement.

Now, are you talking about the rude crude AMG 6.2 liter that won Int'l Performance Engine of the year in 2009 and 2010? A high-revving monster V8 that redlines @ 7100 and never stops pulling right past the 155 limiter? (Yes, 7100 is not the 4.0's 8300 or 8500 but it's high enough to be considered so).

Or how about the victorious AMG 5.4 V8 (2003), followed by the AMG 6.0 V12 in 2004??

Okay, okay..........the 5.0 V10 from M won in 2005-2007, but I'm already on record as proclaiming the 4.0 derived from it as having been grandfathered the award, too. Hey, it's the 8 of the same 10 cylinders tuned for another M car, right?

So for you to opine AMG engines are merely noisy and unrefined is quite revealing. Can't you appreciate solid and exemplary workmanship regardless of manufacturer or what you own?

Get a grip, though I didn't mean to blindside you, homie. Had to comment 'cause what I read was just damn ignorant, literally, of what AMG engines really are. What's next? You gonna say ALPINA puts out sh-- for powertrains? I think not. Even I know that'a be ignant, too. Ooops; never mind. Forgot you're a hardcore, tunnel visioned BMW loyalist; can't tell you jack poo.

Still, get it right! M can tune the hell out of an engine, as can Audi Quattro, AMG, Ford SVT, SRT, Cadillac V, ALPINA, Dinan, RennTech, etc., etc., to name a few. Hell, even Lexus F is in there.

.............."not refined like some of those NA M engines." What a load of crap.

Wow chill dude...