First close call - beware of M button in the wet

[andret]

I had my first close call in the M3 today. The road was a bit wet from a recent shower and I had M button on. I took one of my favorite wide corners and gave it a bit too much throttle and the back end just spun around catching me off guard.

I went straight towards the gutter and the front end jumped the gutter at low speed with the wheels coming to rest just on the other side of the concrete. There was little backfill on the other side of the gutter so the chassis rails were resting just on top of the concrete, this would have happened fairly gently. However I was stuck as reversing wouldn't pull the front wheels back over the gutter.

A very kind gentleman driving by helped to push as I reversed and we eventually got it over. I checked for damage and amazingly there was none, not even slightly. I thanked him and drove home - with the M button off.

What a scare - it could have been much worse. So just a warning to be extra careful with M button on in the wet. I consider this a free lesson, so hopefully others can benefit from this too.

EDIT - Never use MDM or DSC off in the wet on public roads!

[piloto]

Glad you're ok.

[jonasaurus]

Good to hear you're ok mate!

[karussell]

glad you are ok, glad car is no worser for the wear. what settings were you using with the M button?

If you are talking about the stability system in M mode (halfway between DSC Off and DSC On), I think this feature is completely useless. DSC On will mask some very bad habits such as pinching corner exit, but its there to keep people from spinning when they don't know how to control the car. DSC Off and autocross (especially on wet course or skid pad) will help you very much in learning the car. M mode is supposed to let the car generate a larger slip angle before DSC starts applying the brakes for you. I find its too conservative to be of any use.

On the spin, yes rain or wet road surface was factor. vehicle settings also a factor. tire condition bigger factor. largest factor is driver input. I highly suggest autocross or car control clinic with your car. safe place to practice what you went through and learn how to a) prevent conditions to cause spin and b) if such event were to occur, you automatically know how to correct for it. spinning on autox is very fun too. safe place to do it, nothing to hit (in most cases). learn to be your sportscar's "DSC" and you will enjoy her more.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by karussell

largest factor is driver input. I highly suggest autocross or car control clinic with your car.

+1

[MysticBlue]

Do you realize that the M button means different things to different people, depending on what their settings are? To say this was a result of pushing the M button is not accurate. Your problem, (besides driver skill) was not the M Button, but your DSC setting. If pushing your M button turns off your DSC, I would suggest you change it.

[rjd598]

I'm not trying to sound like a dick or anything but this happened from lack of knowledge and no common sense. Definitely go to a class for these types of driving conditions because it's very dangerous and can have very bad outcomes. Wet conditions M mode= what some might call fun but to inexperienced drivers (like myself) it can be a nightmare

[donovan]

...all this debate is the reason why I didn't get it. Pointless in a nut shell...


Its either fun or none.
Sideways or safe
Balls deep or no balls.(personal favorite)

[sameh]

I donno why is the attack on MDM? I love it. It's much more fun than DSC yet still safer than DSC-off. Good driver or not, I still think that you should keep the (DSC-off) to the track only but not the street. When the M3 is on second gear 6000RPM a little water under PS2 can be difficult to control. My 0.02
And yeah, OP your title makes M button sounds like an extra 200HP!!

[OC3]

Originally Posted by sameh

... And yeah, OP your title makes M button sounds like an extra 200HP!!

[DavidZ]

Hi there, new here. This is my first BMW. I'm wondering if this is the result of the OP's M mode not having DSC enabled? If DSC was on in M mode, shouldn't it have prevented the spin? Reading the manual, I thought M mode just allows the DSC to give more slip angle before kicking in. With stability control enabled in my '08 S2000, it is near impossible to swap ends in the rain with overzealous throttle inputs. Granted the S2000 isn't prone to throttle on oversteer, but I do believe it is even more tail happy in the wet than the M3. I haven't even pushed my M3 or enabled M mode as it's not broken in yet (only 800 miles).

Thanks

[schnell325]

M mode can be DSC in OFF mode!!!!

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by schnell325

M mode can be DSC in OFF mode!!!!

DSC mode can be M in ON mode?

[gthal]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

Hi there, new here. This is my first BMW. I'm wondering if this is the result of the OP's M mode not having DSC enabled? If DSC was on in M mode, shouldn't it have prevented the spin? Reading the manual, I thought M mode just allows the DSC to give more slip angle before kicking in. With stability control enabled in my '08 S2000, it is near impossible to swap ends in the rain with overzealous throttle inputs. Granted the S2000 isn't prone to throttle on oversteer, but I do believe it is even more tail happy in the wet than the M3. I haven't even pushed my M3 or enabled M mode as it's not broken in yet (only 800 miles).

Thanks

I agree... if the M button was programmed to leave DSC fully on, this would likely not be a concern. Having said that, even with DSC on I would bet you could get the rear to come out in very slippery conditions with too much throttle.

[sameh]

Originally Posted by gthal

I agree... if the M button was programmed to leave DSC fully on, this would likely not be a concern. Having said that, even with DSC on I would bet you could get the rear to come out in very slippery conditions with too much throttle.

Absolutely. I was gonna make a 180 with DSC on. It was intentional though, trying to test the DSC limits. It's good but not stupid proof.

[jmflukeiii]

Originally Posted by MysticBlue

Do you realize that the M button means different things to different people, depending on what their settings are? To say this was a result of pushing the M button is not accurate. Your problem, (besides driver skill) was not the M Button, but your DSC setting. If pushing your M button turns off your DSC, I would suggest you change it.

Yes... the M mode means nothing. You could have your settings be really really conservative and push the M button and be safer than you were before. As he said, traction control off entirely is a bad idea. I found that out in a 330ci, that car was easy as sh** to break off the road with little effort, you can only imagine the 200+ hp in the M's ability to take a slide.

With that being said, M mode is MDM for me which I think is a brilliant traction control giving me some slippage, but never letting it go too hairy.

[jmflukeiii]

Originally Posted by karussell

glad you are ok, glad car is no worser for the wear. what settings were you using with the M button?

If you are talking about the stability system in M mode (halfway between DSC Off and DSC On), I think this feature is completely useless. DSC On will mask some very bad habits such as pinching corner exit, but its there to keep people from spinning when they don't know how to control the car. DSC Off and autocross (especially on wet course or skid pad) will help you very much in learning the car. M mode is supposed to let the car generate a larger slip angle before DSC starts applying the brakes for you. I find its too conservative to be of any use.

On the spin, yes rain or wet road surface was factor. vehicle settings also a factor. tire condition bigger factor. largest factor is driver input. I highly suggest autocross or car control clinic with your car. safe place to practice what you went through and learn how to a) prevent conditions to cause spin and b) if such event were to occur, you automatically know how to correct for it. spinning on autox is very fun too. safe place to do it, nothing to hit (in most cases). learn to be your sportscar's "DSC" and you will enjoy her more.

DSC will certainly mask bad driving behaviors but I entirely disagree about the MDM - M dynamic Mode - not "M button" - as being not "of any use". I think it keeps the engine going when the wheels are breaking lose in daily driving, but when wet, it keeps it from getting too out of hand. I think its quite incredible actually how good it is.

Don't get me wrong, its not the driver that is "good"; its that DSC, but that DSC mode is "that good" .

[SenorFunkyPants]

With cars having ever increasing power outputs combined with drivers who haven't grown up driving high performance cars without traction/stability controls, its bound to lead to accidents and eventually manufacturers making systems like DSC un-switch-off-able.

[andret]

Thanks for all the comments. M settings were DSC in MDM, Power to Sport Plus, Steering to Sport, EDC to Sport. I have realized that I am not as good a driver as I thought I was and this will be the trigger for some proper driver training. I did however think that MDM would have been more forgiving as I didn't think I was pushing it that hard.

Now I understand the limits of the car I will be backing off considerably under these conditions. This is my first high powered car and I agree with the last few posts regarding the technology masking bad driving habits.

I am not as experienced or skilled as others out there and this has been a wake up call of the consequences. Hope others in my position can also take something away from this.

[sameh]

Originally Posted by andret

Thanks for all the comments. M settings were DSC in MDM, Power to Sport Plus, Steering to Sport, EDC to Sport. I have realized that I am not as good a driver as I thought I was and this will be the trigger for some proper driver training. I did however think that MDM would have been more forgiving as I didn't think I was pushing it that hard.

Now I understand the limits of the car I will be backing off considerably under these conditions. This is my first high powered car and I agree with the last few posts regarding the technology masking bad driving habits.

I am not as experienced or skilled as others out there and this has been a wake up call of the consequences. Hope others in my position can also take something away from this.

Very humble response to all of our mean comments. Good man

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by andret

I did however think that MDM would have been more forgiving

I've pitched an E46 M3 into a mighty spin at 70mph in the wet while driving pretty much in a straight line (albeit at full throttle) with DSC fully on (due to a bump in the tarmac)....this compares with the ~20 previous years of driving 911 and 911 turbos without any traction control in rain and snow with never a spin.
DSC, good as it is, won't save you every time.
I find MDM to be fine to use on dry roads but unless you are very confident in your abilities I would suggest never switching DSC off or using MDM unless you are on bone dry roads (and the temps are above 7C to 10C).

[dhoggm3]

Andret, good attitude about this. It took me quite a while before I was comfortable turning off the DSC even though I can slide a car around pretty well. I wasn't used to the V8 or the weight of the car. If this is your first high-powered car, it's very different. When I first stepped up from a 325i to an E36 M3, I had to completely re-train my right foot. Going from that to this, it had to be re-trained again. I didn't want to ball it up!

I run M mode when I don't want to focus quite as hard as when I run DSC full off. It does give a bit more safety blanket, but you can still spin it if you do the wrong thing. Full DSC on these cars will let you get away with just about anything, and that's what it's for.

If you can find a rainy, empty parking lot to practice with DSC fully off, that would be a good thing. A BMW CCA DE would be an even better thing - one where they use a skidpad. That's where you'll come a long way on this curve really fast. Enjoy!