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06-20-2018, 10:14 AM | #67 |
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F1 brakes aren't carbon-ceramic. They are carbon-carbon, which isn't useable in street cars for various reasons, including operating temperature range, extreme cost, the fact that they take forevvveerrr to produce (~9 months for F1 discs), short life, etc. Not 100% sure but I believe LMP cars use the same. Carbon-ceramic discs were actually a development of compromise to bring carbon brake technology into street cars rather than a track optimized technology.
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06-20-2018, 12:07 PM | #68 | |
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Besides weight savings, there is no advantage to a CCB on track even if cost is no object. And Porsche race teams do not use CCBs on their race cars. Porsche saying it is a "must have" option is pure marketing. They want you to spend $10k+ more to get PCCB so they can make more money off of you. Sure, you get less brake dust and it works a bit better on the street but that's all the PCCB gets you. It's fine to use on the track as well, but offers no advantage.
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06-20-2018, 02:14 PM | #69 | |||||||||||
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So I guess Porsche is lying: https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/9...s/safety/pccb/ Here is what they say (emphasis mine): Quote:
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The weight savings in themselves are significant, but I contest that in every other way they are as good as or better than iron too, except cost. I have yet to be convinced otherwise. You guys have provided zero references too. Claiming that the manufacturer is lying for money reasons doesn't fly - if all they cared about was money then they would put PCCB as standard on the GT3 and claim it was racing technology, right? Thanks, Z. |
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06-20-2018, 02:31 PM | #70 |
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CCB hasn’t caught on in real actual racing yet. It’s seemingly either iron or carbon carbon. Unless the 2018 cars are changed the 2017 supercup cars used iron rotors
I’d rather have the lighter carbon brake package for a street car. Lightness in the wheels/tires/brakes especially really helps a car feel better everyday. |
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06-20-2018, 02:41 PM | #71 |
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For what it's worth...
All of my track friends either specced their cars with Steel, or swapped to Steel from CCB. They can all afford to replace the CCB setup if desired, at the same intervals as they do with Steel. A proper Steel BBK can go toe to toe with CCB all day long. ------- https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...onversion.html I bookmarked that a while ago^ Not the most recent article, but the cars mentioned are still on track today so it's relevant. |
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06-20-2018, 03:18 PM | #72 | ||||||
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There was a 488 with CCBs on track last weekend. They were demoted from black to white as they were too slow. I'm sure their CCBs did just fine. Quote:
Yes, having something that gets hit often when replacing tires and wheels and which costs $2k per hit is a disadvantage. Quote:
You're the first person who seems to believe CCBs are a great option for serious track people. Quote:
The very first time I mentioned a BBK I said a 'high level BBK' or something to that effect. Correct, you do not need ducting. Quote:
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06-20-2018, 03:19 PM | #73 | |
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06-20-2018, 04:55 PM | #74 | ||
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https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...formation.html Quote:
Once it hits that kind of pricing and volume, CCB may very well be used on track as much as steel brakes... but given the delicacy, pricing and great alternatives, there's no need for it on track today.
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06-20-2018, 06:19 PM | #75 | |
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06-20-2018, 07:47 PM | #76 | ||
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06-21-2018, 08:04 AM | #77 |
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Wow. Let's try to clear up some of this.
(1) Porsche charging extra for CCB on the GT3. Anyone who has dealt with Porsche knows that they have a habit of offering extra cost performance options on even their highest priced road cars. This doesn't mean that the performance options aren't worth having. It simply means that Porsche has learned how to nickle and dime consumers. BMW does the same thing, albeit with comfort and convenience options (they charge extra for Apple play on the M760, for crying out loud, a feature standard on new Toyotas!). (2) Lighter weight is always a benefit, and more so at the ends of the axles where unsprung weight has more impact on handling than it will elsewhere on the vehicle. (3) Durability. If CC rotors were as fragile as you imagine, F1 and LeMans racers woul not use them. Tire changes need to occur in around 6 or 7 seconds for all 4 corners, and no team wants to risk the additional down time a required to replace rotors during a pit stop. |
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06-21-2018, 08:23 AM | #78 | |||
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Porsche sells the steel brakes for people who actually track and leave the CCBs to hard parkers who go on forums talking about how 'incredible they bite' and other comments which are of low intelligence. That is also why their Cup car comes with steel brakes. Quote:
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CC --> for professional race cars of the highest level. Insanely expensive. Actually durable CCB--> a good way for marketers to make money off susceptible humans, who can brag while parked at Costco that their brakes 'make the tires chirp' and that nothing brakes like them because 'race teams use them' This is not an issue of imagining things. The car's manual clearly states if you hit the rotor with a wheel you have to replace the rotor. Do you need a link? I can provide one as it seems very difficult to understand Anyone who tracks a lot goes through a massive amount of wheels and tires. They are changing them once, maybe more per weekend. Then again, I guess in the same universe where we have glass bridges and people spending 10k per weekend on brakes because 'they can afford it' and because 'they can feel two pounds of unsprung mass per corner', perhaps we also have people bringing a whole crew of mechanics to the track with them who are trained in changing wheels without banging the rotors. It must be nice to live in that universe. |
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06-21-2018, 10:25 AM | #79 | |
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Carbon ceramic brakes refer to the carbon-ceramic composite material that the rotors are made of offering superior braking performance during extreme use. This composite construction offers lighter, stronger and more durable disks than their steel counterparts. And it’s this 3 way blitz where carbon ceramics shine over steel. Despite being larger in diameter, each carbon ceramics disc are about 12 lbs lighter than steel2. Therefore a vehicle equipped with ceramics can shed 24-28 lbs off its overall curb weight2. Where ceramics shine as the ultimate brake package is in its durability. Remember, Brakes decelerate your vehicle by forcing stationary brake pads onto the moving rotors and friction stops the car. Where there is friction, there will be heat. Steel brakes often have a tough time dissipating this heat during repeat hard use on the track. When the standard steel rotors get too hot, they warp, deform, and loose performance. Carbon ceramics dissipate heat far more effectively, preventing deformation, and maintaining performance. Not only can they dissipate heat efficiently, the extreme temperatures ceramics can handle are amazing. It’s whycarbon ceramic brakes are the number one choice in racing. Also the carbon composite material does not corrode like steel does when they are abused by water and salt2. Carbon ceramics are also known to last forever. Ok, not forever. But it has been reported that one set of ceramic brakes can last throughout the entire life of the car, about 100,000 miles according to brake manufacturers2. Now it’s too early to confirm those results true, but that is an impressive statement to make. Now you are probably wondering why I haven’t started quoting 60-0 mph stopping distances for ceramic brakes and begin comparing them to the steel equivalent. But most fail to realize that some steel disc packages stop just as fast as the ceramics do. The only time where carbon ceramics begin to gain an advantage is after repeated heavy braking, and the heat from the friction begins to scrub performance from the steel brakes. Carbon ceramic brakes do have its flaws, but those flaws only show itself during everyday driving. First flaw is cost. No need to explain any further. The second flaw is the “squishy” or lack of feel the brakes have when they are cold. Ceramics don’t actually begin to feel “normal” until they heat up from extended track use. Which means those brakes will never feel “normal” for the 90% of drivers who never go tracking. The squishy feeling is actually the most common complaint and is a big deal for those who love the confidence of an early brake feel. Another flaw, which is me just nitpicking, is the squeaking noise ceramics make during low speed braking. Not as loud as truck and bus brakes sound, but just as annoying. The last flaw is of course the price. Sorry, I can’t help myself. The price for the upgrade can make anyone wince at its sight. Yes, ceramics discs look cool with those large dark gray rotors crossed drilled for extra heat dissipation. Yes, ceramic disc offer exceptional braking performance on the track. Can I reiterate, on the track. But if you don’t spend your Sundays at the track, where is all the money going? It’s a hard call to make, especially the standard steel brakes offer just as good braking performance as the carbons ceramics. |
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06-21-2018, 10:26 AM | #80 | |
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Marketing departments are great at what they do. And people are sheep, me included, cause I own an M3 - a great car that can only be driven at 4/10ths if you do not want to be in violation of most traffic laws... Not a single human being on this earth: A - NEEDS CCB brakes for performance reasons on the street B - can tell the difference in un-sprung weight while getting groceries Factory brakes are more than adequate for ANY legal driving requirements. CCBs come down to "mine is "better" than yours" for people with money. As for track use, any proper steel BBK will be more appropriate than a factory CCB. Super Late Models here us normal disk brakes (slotted, never cross drilled) and they are heavily used ~ every 7 seconds for 200 laps and work just fine. Happy Thursday
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06-21-2018, 10:43 AM | #81 | |
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Heated Rears is part of the Exec package right? A $4000 option? I left that option off my M4 I thought it was useless. |
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06-21-2018, 11:03 AM | #82 | |
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Also, plenty of us are engineers with perspectives, and I've seen plenty of engineers with screwed up ideas and understandings. There are many bad/dumb engineers out there with degrees. |
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06-21-2018, 12:19 PM | #84 | |
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Yeah, sorry. The other day I read a thread of some poor soul on the F8X forum that bought into the marketing hype and destroyed his CCBs in 4 days. That is **much** worse performance than a steel bbk I should just let the comments slide, but eventually someone will read this and I don't want them making the same mistake as the guy on the other forum |
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06-21-2018, 01:13 PM | #85 |
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06-21-2018, 09:57 PM | #87 |
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Love this forum! Opened page one, talking interior quality of F80s (btw, stop, they are beautiful inside, especially with full individual merino leather).
Jumped to page 4 and it's a CCB P car war! Unexpected! These 2 cars are always going to be compared because unlike previous M3 generations, it feels like they could be sold next to each other in the showroom and everyone would be ok with it.
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06-21-2018, 11:09 PM | #88 | |
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I would just do the same thing I already did, and buy a second hand E9X in the 10k mileage range.
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