ESS 550 Kit.. Tuned by Mike Benvo

[chris s]

i wonder if he'll back up his product if the motor blows?

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

What are you talking about? Anyone can do whatever they want with their car, lol. You simply don't get it, my post was about an individuals behavior, conduct and ethics, cleary those are not important factors to you, but they are to me.

I fail to see what BPM did wrong by offering tuning on a used kit, and why they would be unable to do so.

please explain further on why you think this is wrong? what did the individual do wrong?

I personally would have gone with ESS simply because the risk would be lower, but I don't think BPM offering a tuning service is unethical. I previously had an ESS blower on my e46 and enjoyed it immensely, and have no experience with BPM nor have any plans to use their products or any software products on my m3, so no vested interest here.

[happos2]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

thats a little extreme to say the least.

these companies are in competition. there is nothing wrong with providing a tune to a buyer of a used kit who requests this service.

why exactly does BPM (or anyone for that matter) owe ESS (or anyone from any kit) anything at all? ESS already made their money from selling the kit outright. So now they have a monopoly over anyone who wants to purchase the kit second hand? That's ridiculous and is completely out of line with what a free market is and is supposed to be.

__________________________________________________ __________

The tuner can offer whatever services they like, and the consumer is free to seek out whatever tune they like.

You cannot and should not control what people do with their money or cars. IMO your post is way off base and makes little sense.

I think I tried stating what you said....up until the line. After that, I can't argue with an opinion and I don't think that is what was being said.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

umm not really at all

there is nothing wrong with a 3rd party software company like BPM or whoever tuning for a supercharger no matter what company sourced the parts (vortech blowers etc).

there is absolutely zero that is unethical about that at all, and I fail to see what is wrong with what BPM is offering.

If you built a product, that took a lot of money, time, and effort to make and that worked great and was proven, and someone else piggybacked on your hard work for attention and profit, you wouldn't have a problem with that? Fair enough, you should move to China then you'll fit right in.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

If you built a product, that took a lot of money, time, and effort to make and that worked great and was proven, and someone else piggybacked on your hard work for attention and profit, you wouldn't have a problem with that? Fair enough, you should move to China then you'll fit right in.

Imagine ESS suddenly deciding to offer tunes for AA SC kits. Same concept, just not as bad b/c at least ESS has experience tuning SC'ed bmw's.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

If you built a product, that took a lot of money, time, and effort to make and that worked great and was proven, and someone else piggybacked on your hard work for attention and profit, you wouldn't have a problem with that? Fair enough, you should move to China then you'll fit right in.

they already sold the kit originally and made their money. this is a second hand product, which was resold. ESS and BPM both are software companies, and since the buyer already owns the hardware, why would it be unfair for another company to offer software for a used kit?

IMO the thought that BPM should not be allowed to compete with ESS or VF etc on software tuning a second hand hardware package is more indicative of anti-capitalist thought processes.

JMO. I think more vendors and more competition is a good thing and will improve products in the long run.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by chris s

And no....nothing wrong with benvo offering a tune for a kit he didn't design, develop, build or test! IMHO just kinda dumb on the consumers part, but JUSTTTT my opinion.

Well news for you - Benvo nor ESS for that matter designed, developed, built, or tested the M3 but they still offer tunes.

Sounds like some of you have some weird obsession/hatred towards BPM. If you dont like the products then dont buy them! No need to come on here bashing a product the OP clearly likes from a very reputable tuner/vendor.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Well news for you - Benvo nor ESS for that matter designed, developed, built, or tested the M3 but they still offer tunes.

Sounds like some of you have some weird obsession/hatred towards BPM. If you dont like the products then dont buy them! No need to come on here bashing a product the OP clearly likes from a very reputable tuner/vendor.

Umm no, you are correct, they're both aftermarket companies. Completely different discussion.

I have no obsession with bpm, good or bad. I do own an ess kit and believe in the product. Pretty sure i'm entitled to my opinion on the subject as well.

[happos2]

Eh, these are all opinions...I doubt they are going to change.

I am going to start singing "Its a small world after all..."

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Well news for you - Benvo nor ESS for that matter designed, developed, built, or tested the M3 but they still offer tunes.

Sounds like some of you have some weird obsession/hatred towards BPM. If you dont like the products then dont buy them! No need to come on here bashing a product the OP clearly likes from a very reputable tuner/vendor.

Oh stop it with the hate crap, don't hate Benvo, tuning an NA motor vs. tuning a FI car are completely different things and stealing someone else's kit/hard work so you can test your tuning skills on FI is hardly reputable or a classy move. News for you, ESS DID build the kit, which is what we are talking about. No one has any hatred towards them they have common sense and can see through all of these recent tune threads and the nonsense, the dude has been banned from this site more than once, apparently he's not all that reputable in terms of his conduct.

[astris]

So ethics aside, is anyone going to provide any actual information about the tune and numbers? Or are butt dynos and "trust me" statements now considered technical data?

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

So knowing code means you know how to safely/correctly TUNE a FI kit that was not developed by you?

Don't know enough to comment on that, however, I know Mike and he knows what he is doing. As far as your argument on a 3rd party tuning another parties S/C kit, well to be frank I think that's ridiculous. Its the owners money to do with what he pleases. Why shouldn't Mike be allowed to tune an ESS S/Cd car? Is their some sort of Non Compete Disclosure Agreement that goes out with the S/C kit when it is sold? I don't think so. After all this is America not China. If the OP wants to have his car tuned by BPM who are you or anyone to tell him not to.

I have no dog in this fight, as I don't even have BPM software. However, if I was to tune my car, I would have no issues with Mike tuning it. To be honest Drew you are coming across as fanboi for ESS, which you have every right to be just as a lot of people are enamored with Mikes prowess in tuning these cars, normally aspirated or blown.

On a nice note...how are the little ones doing? Growing fast huh? Its scary.

Dave

[happos2]

Another thought....I should never by generic brand drug because the initial patent holder put the sweat in to develop it? Oh gosh, I just egged on the the argument...sorry.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Oh stop it with the hate crap, tuning an NA motor vs. tuning a FI car are completely different things and stealing someone else's kit/hard work so you can test your tuning skills on FI is hardly reputable or a classy move. News for you, ESS DID build the kit, which is what we are talking about. No one has any hatred towards them they have common sense and can see through all of these recent tune threads and the nonsense, the dude has been banned from this site more than once, apparently he's not all that reputable in terms of his conduct.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don’t see any difference between BPM tuning a FI car for a kit they didn’t build vs ESS/BMP tuning a stock M3 for an ECU they didn’t build. What about someone who has a full Arka system and buys a tune for it? Arka makes the delete R right to turn off the CEL? Are these tuners then "stealing" Akra's idea of diabling the CEL? What about the Akra exhaust in general? Is Akra ripping off BMW who originally designed the exhaust for the M3?

[pkimM3r]

What does it matter whos kit you are running? Its a supercharger kit. A tune is separate.

In other FI communities, you source a turbo, a manifold, intercooler, piping, and a tune. You can put whatever parts you want together as you please. Same story here. How is that unethical? I dont see people complaining about having an ESS/BPM/whoever else tune at the expense of Akras hard work?

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by astris

So ethics aside, is anyone going to provide any actual information about the tune and numbers? Or are butt dynos and "trust me" statements now considered technical data?

Apparently when it comes to BPM, "butt" dyno's are acceptable.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

What does it matter whos kit you are running? Its a supercharger kit. A tune is separate.

In other FI communities, you source a turbo, a manifold, intercooler, piping, and a tune. You can put whatever parts you want together as you please. Same story here. How is that unethical? I dont see people complaining about having an ESS/BPM/whoever else tune at the expense of Akras hard work?

Right, but that's not the case here and your analogy is poor, a supercharger kit will not work run without a tune, and the company that built that kit worked and spent a lot money creating a tune for that kit. Every S65 supercharger kit on the market comes with a tune and none of them want someone else tuning the kit they developed.

[King Tut]

Hillarous thread. I couldn't disagree with DLSJ5 more. Tuners tune. That is what they do. It doesn't matter what manufacturer, what model, what engine, what mods, or especially who designed the supercharger kit on the car. All BMW tuners should be looking to get an ESS supercharger kit equipped car along with all other forced induction kits in their local shop to tune it and offer that tune to their customers. That is just smart business sense. Tuners don't owe anything to any aftermarket forced induction kit's creator. What is in the best interest of the customer is to have options. To see the numbers and the datalogs and choose.

[happos2]

Originally Posted by happos2

Another thought....I should never buy generic brand drug because the initial patent holder put the sweat in to develop it? Oh gosh, I just egged on the the argument...sorry.

I feel like quoting myself. Same exact topic, different industry. Although I fixed my grammatical error with by to buy

[GirlsGarage]

sounds like running after market cast wheels instead of OEM forged wheels

I don't see anything unethical here. common guys, just Run this BMP tune 550 VS an Ess tuned 550!

would be exciting

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Right, but that's not the case here and your analogy is poor, a supercharger kit will not work run without a tune, and the company that built that kit worked and spent a lot money creating a tune for that kit. Every S65 supercharger kit on the market comes with a tune and none of them want someone else tuning the kit they developed.

um, an upgraded turbo kit does NOT work without a tune neither. Hmmm, let me upgrade my 20g to a GT35r and see if that works on the stock ECU.

these kits are basically vortech systems with a custom manifold. you make it seem like they invented superchargers. stop being such a fanboy, and be realistic. I agree with a lot of the posts on here, taking some risk in using a different tune, being on the safe side and getting ESS+ESS, but also a tune is a TUNE. And if the tune comes with the supercharger, why doesn't the tune move with the supercharger if sold second hand?

I'm not saying that ESS sucks. Most guys run their kits and to me, they are quite awesome. But to say that oh since you bought X kit you need X tune is ridiculous.

Lastly, how is that ANY different than saying, you just stepped on akra's toes because you went with X tune.

[THE TECH]

1. What was used to do the logging:
Logging was performed using Bavarian Technic, BMW Logger, as well as factory BMW Tools.

3. It was first tuned on the dyno, fine tweaked on the road, and retested on the dyno.

4. DansM car was tuned for 93 octane. But we offer software for those with 91, and 100 octane as well. As previously stated we are also working on E85 software for both supercharged and naturally aspirated platforms.

5 + 6: We've requested that the OP dyno his car at his earliest convenience. I don't think there is a 'placebo' effect with a supercharger.

7: The OP bought the kit used, so this wasn't a 'retune'. He came from an NA BPM Stage II setup with Test Pipes originally.

Drew,

I'm sorry you feel that it's unprofessional for a 3rd party to tune another companies kit. We respectfully disagree. In fact, many different tuners have tuned other kits out there. When a customer makes a request for a product or service, there are two options available - to provide it or to pass. Given the time spent on previously testing supercharged vehicles (not just this kit, but other kits as well), and the time spent ensuring that the injector scaling was correct for the injectors used, there was no reason for us not to provide this service -- especially to an existing customer of ours.

Nothing is unethical or line crossing about this. A supercharger consists of a blower made by a third-party, injectors made by a third party, as well as other equipment made by third party manufacturers. Supercharger, injectors, manifold, cooling system, piping, bypass valve, and little touches are what make a kit. It's not complicated. Basically what you are saying is that when you put ANY part on a BMW, whether it be an intake, exhaust, or pulley, etc.. that the manufacturer of said parts is giving "no thought or care to all the hard work, time, money, and effort" that BMW performed. Lets cut the fluff out here and stick to the facts.

I don't think the customer is expecting any help or support from ESS, and if he wants that he is free to purchase software from them. We've suggested that he schedule an appointment at the dyno and provided him with the logging tools and the results of the test will be shared with the community. The only thing that matters is that the customer is happy, and that the product performs as intended. We have full confidence that both of this conditions will be met if not exceeded. We do not want this to turn into an argument with you. We can agree to disagree and understand that we have differences of opinion. The OP will certainly share the results of the dyno and were happy to answer any objective, non-opinionated, questions that anyone may have.

If you sincerely believe what you've already posted in this thread, "If you built a product, that took a lot of money, time, and effort to make and that worked great and was proven, and someone else piggybacked on your hard work for attention and profit, you wouldn't have a problem with that?" then why didn't BMW do the build on your built motor for you? And by this notion, no one should even tune the car in the first place then since tuners would just be "piggybacking" on BMW's work right?

We have a passion for these vehicles and a commitment to excellence, and this has, and will always be our driving force moving forward.

Furthermore and to get more of the skeptics out of the thread, if a motor blows because of a TUNING issue, we will pay for the cost of replacement. This is the same warranty that any of the supercharger "manufacturers" offer with their kits. We/they do not cover anything outside of this, i.e. due to bearing failures or other known issues that occur when forced induction is applied to these cars. For example:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=849394