Alcon BBK via Bimmerworld or AP Racing Pro 5000R?

[reidetailing]

Hey everyone,


Looking to get some feedback regarding which is a better performing BBK setup.

I’m sure I can’t go wrong with either, but any feedback is welcome.

Option 1: AP Racing Pro 5000R (Front CP9660 372mm and Rear CP5040 340mm BBK)

Option 2: Alcon CR6420 380mm front and Alcon CAR4949 355mm rear BBK.


Sincerely,
Alex

[DRLane]

Not apples to apples - AP would be 9668.

However, in your specific comparison the Alcon is the superior setup namely because of the 25mm pads.

You'll undoubtedly get a bunch of AP distrust coming in 5 4 3….

I have Essex AP 9668/9449 and they have been excellent.

[e36clubracer]

They're both going to be really good. Yeah the 9668 AP Caliper in the front is the apples to apples comparison.

You won't be disappointed with either setup. I would go for whichever one you feel you can get good support and parts from in the long term.

[sc_tr0jan_m3]

Love my AP's. Can't complain about them.

[dparm]

Why not a PFC BBK?

FWIW, I would pick the AP. It's a legit race kit you see on race cars. Alcon is trickier to get serviced and has less selection in pads.

[MaX PL]

Originally Posted by dparm

Why not a PFC BBK?

FWIW, I would pick the AP. It's a legit race kit you see on race cars. Alcon is trickier to get serviced and has less selection in pads.

you only see the caliper on race cars. they're never running their rotor.

[dogbone]

Been an AP user for 10 years. Have had two different kits—the older CP5555 kit and the 9668/9449 kit. (I still have the old kit on my steeet E92 M3.) Never had an overheat. Never had brake fade. Super strong stopping power with high torque pads. The calipers don’t need any attention between rebuilds. With SRF, you bleed them once every 8-12 months.

Essex service is nice when you need rebuilds. I rebuild every couple years.

The biggest annoyance is that sometimes one pad will wear quicker than the others. Just need to keep an eye on them and maybe rotate. I believe this can be track dependent.

Also, on the 9668, don’t use the spring clips for pad retention. Use the bolts and blocks. The pads wear REALLLLY uneven with the spring clips in my experience.

Some (SYT_Shadow) get pad tapering. I haven’t seen that on my kits.

[roastbeef]

Real G's use AP.

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Been an AP user for 10 years. Have had two deferent kits—the older CP5555 kit and the 9668/9449 kit. (I still have the old kit on my steeet E92 M3.) Never had an overheat. Never had brake fade. Super strong stopping power with high torque pads. The calipers don't need any attention between rebuilds. With SRF, you bleed them once every 8-12 months.

Essex service is nice when you need rebuilds. I rebuild every couple years.

The biggest annoyance is that sometimes one pad will wear quicker than the others. Just need to keep an eye on them and maybe rotate. I believe this can be track dependent.

Also, on the 9668, don't use the spring clips for pad retention. Use the bolts and blocks. The pads wear REALLLLY uneven with the spring clips in my experience.

Some (SYT_Shadow) get pad tapering. I haven't seen that on my kits.

I don't know what constitutes aggressive taper, but these were my ds2500 rears with AP 9449. Gabe, what pads are you on? I'm now on ds1.11 all around

[911r]

NA support for Alcon seems minimal. NA support for Essex is quite good, they are fairly active on the forums, and have always been willing to answer my stupid questions.

PFC makes an extremely good kit. Maybe one of the better kits. Good luck finding one though.

[reidetailing]

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by slcook54

I don't know what constitutes aggressive taper, but these were my ds2500 rears with AP 9449. Gabe, what pads are you on? I'm now on ds1.11 all around

Cobalt Friction pads:
Front: XR1
Rear: XR2

I don’t recommend XR1 if you don’t have slicks. If you don’t run slicks, then go Front-XR2, Rear-XR3.

[VictorH]

If you don’t run slicks, then go Front-XR2, Rear-XR3.

This is what I ran on my dual purpose E90 with PFC kit. I was running anything from AD08R, RE-71R to Cup2s and pad life and rotor life in particular were excellent. Great pads.
Cobalt friction has been sold to a new owner, hopefully they haven't changed the composition of the compounds.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by VictorH

If you don’t run slicks, then go Front-XR2, Rear-XR3.

This is what I ran on my dual purpose E90 with PFC kit. I was running anything from AD08R, RE-71R to Cup2s and pad life and rotor life in particular were excellent. Great pads.
Cobalt friction has been sold to a new owner, hopefully they haven't changed the composition of the compounds.

Over the years, I got to know the owner who started Cobalt Friction—-super technical guy who spent a lot of time consulting for teams trackside. The pad advice I give people is the same advice he gave me. And I know who it was sold to. The new owner was trained on all the methods and has been careful with the compounds to keep things the same. The one new thing that the new owner is doing is making popular pad shapes and compounds and keeping them in stock ready to go. In the past, most things were made-to-order and there might be a wait. The AP RadiCal pad shape is kept in stock. I just ordered some a couple weeks ago and they shipped out same day.

Btw, the pad shapes for Cobalt Friction in the AP RadiCal are:
9668 or 9660 - AP19 (specify thickness)
9449 - AP13

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by dogbone

The one new thing that the new owner is doing is making popular pad shapes and compounds and keeping them in stock ready to go. In the past, most things were made-to-order and there might be a wait. The AP RadiCal pad shape is kept in stock. I just ordered some a couple weeks ago and they shipped out same day.

I'm friends with Eddie and when I needed new pads for my AP setup last year, literally stayed up late making me pads, brought them on his carry on luggage, and installed them in the shop the next morning. Now that's customer service!*

I run the XR2s all the way around with non-slick tires, AP 5000 up front and OEM rears on my E46. Even with the XR2s they have a lot of bite for street tires. Still easy to lock-up the fronts on my E46 if you don't threshold brake. Driven several E92s with the AP kit and Cobalt XR2s, and they're amazing on this platform as well.

* Disclaimer: he was flying back here to Portland anyway. LOL

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

I'm friends with Eddie and when I needed new pads for my AP setup last year, literally stayed up late making me pads, brought them on his carry on luggage, and installed them in the shop the next morning. Now that's customer service!*

I run the XR2s all the way around with non-slick tires, AP 5000 up front and OEM rears on my E46. Even with the XR2s they have a lot of bite for street tires. Still easy to lock-up the fronts on my E46 if you don't threshold brake. Driven several E92s with the AP kit and Cobalt XR2s, and they're amazing on this platform as well.

* Disclaimer: he was flying back here to Portland anyway. LOL

haha cool story!

[nicksm3]

Im currently looking for a new BBK and ive been (3 years) on the PFC BBK front and rear which is by far the best brakes i have ever tested. Ive tested all of them and i absolutely love my PFC's but their customer service is by far the worst. Ive been waiting on Rotors since last June and still NOTHING! i emailed and called them over the early fall and winter and nothing. Bimmerworld cant even give me an answer to whats going on with them and BIMMERWORLD is a supplier!!!!!
So im leaning towards AP's now because of their support.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Im currently looking for a new BBK and ive been (3 years) on the PFC BBK front and rear which is by far the best brakes i have ever tested. Ive tested all of them and i absolutely love my PFC's but their customer service is by far the worst. Ive been waiting on Rotors since last June and still NOTHING! i emailed and called them over the early fall and winter and nothing. Bimmerworld cant even give me an answer to whats going on with them and BIMMERWORLD is a supplier!!!!!
So im leaning towards AP's now because of their support.

Yeah PFC doesn't give a shit about anything besides their race car support, as that's likely where they make most of their money. I was trying to get the 08 or 11 compounds made for my Corvette's OEM Brembos (which is a super common caliper) but it took me months of calling and emailing before I even spoke with someone who was like "lol no".

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by dparm

Yeah PFC doesn't give a shit about anything besides their race car support, as that's likely where they make most of their money. I was trying to get the 08 or 11 compounds made for my Corvette's OEM Brembos (which is a super common caliper) but it took me months of calling and emailing before I even spoke with someone who was like "lol no".

What dicks!

[SupraSaiyan]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Im currently looking for a new BBK and ive been (3 years) on the PFC BBK front and rear which is by far the best brakes i have ever tested. Ive tested all of them and i absolutely love my PFC's but their customer service is by far the worst. Ive been waiting on Rotors since last June and still NOTHING! i emailed and called them over the early fall and winter and nothing. Bimmerworld cant even give me an answer to whats going on with them and BIMMERWORLD is a supplier!!!!!
So im leaning towards AP's now because of their support.

Yeah I emailed them a total of three times in last 12 months and have yet to hear from them. Really disappointed with their support and have given up.

[spooni]

AP 9668 FTW

Hit up Jason at OG shark, and he'll get you a better deal than you see on AP's site. Plus great support all around.

[SYT_Shadow]

We've had PFC, the BimmerWorld-Alcon and the AP Radical rear

PFC is top shelf. The fattest pads which also happen to be cheapest. We still have one full BBK and a second front-only PFC. It's good enough that we spent a long time in Solidworks and 3D printing to get front brackets built for our F8X as PFC does not officially support the F.
The Z54/45 kit properly sends bias to the rear of the car. 28mm front, 20mm rear pad.
We continue to get this serviced without issues, at least so far. We've been hearing about gloom and doom for years regarding PFC service, so far everything is in stock at BimmerWorld and we're yet to have any kind of issue, whether it's rotors, hats, pads or rebuild kits for the pistons/seals.
The PFC rotors are cast in the US and are cut without using lubricating oil. Massive cost difference but that avoids the rotor from absorbing oil which will bleed out during use.
Front and rear pads come out completely flat with no taper despite being the fattest pads of all.

The Bimmerworld-Alcon kit is the new hotness. We've run it for two seasons. It has a 36mm front rotor (vs 32-34mm PFC/AP) and that makes a huge difference in durability and heat dissipation/thermal stability.
25mm front, 23mm rear. It sends bias to the rear of the car.
A 36mm front rotor cannot be understood properly until you hold one in your hands. It is absolutely insane. So far we have never managed to crack one all the way through. 50% more durability than the PFC rotor which was otherwise the reigning champion.
Excellent pad options as well. The front uses the same pad shape as the AP big kit and has all the newer PFC compounds.
The front and rear rotors always come prebedded, a very nice plus

The AP Radical seems to get a lot of love here. We are not among the fans. They were on the car four events and we quickly tired of pad taper making the rear 17mm pad even less effective than it would be otherwise as well as rotor life that seemed more like a stock brake than a BBK. I heard they redesigned them, but we clearly remember their sales guy telling us all how their rotors were vastly superior to the PFC rotor, then we run them, they last half of a PFC rotor and they eventually get redesigned. I abhor marketing bullshit when it comes to track stuff. The Turner M4 GT4 cars have Girodisc rotor conversions added to the spec AP kit and I'm not one bit surprised.
We still have the two sets of rear pads we ran that are tapered enough to build a triangle when you stack them. When you have a 17mm pad to begin with and then you get 5mm of taper, you're screwed.
The kit was sold after four events and we committed to building a rear PFC adapter, then BimmerWorld launched the Alcons and we went to that instead.


Possible reasons for our lackluster experience with APs:
-We run full weight cars with no aero and punish the brakes more than people running 6 seconds faster that are lightened and have aero. And we do that for an hour at a time as we double-track cars. This is likely the most savage use of a brake kit.
-Not many people here go through one 25-28mm pad in one weekend, but we do. Every weekend. A few times we have gone through one 28-25mm pad in a single day!
-We came from a PFC kit and clearly felt the downgrade with the AP. I'm sure if one comes from stock then APs feel pretty awesome
-My brother and I are both mechanical engineers with grad degrees in engineering as well. We understand the theory behind the cool shape of the Radical, but the results need to be there. They are not. It is clear to us that in the pursuit of a sexy shape they cut out too much material and compromised rigidity. You see this for example where the PFC has three cross-bolts per side but the AP Radical has two: where the third one would go there is a nice cutout to lighten the caliper.



As luck would have it, our two sets of nickel plated BW-Alcons won't be ready until June so... GTS1 has stock calipers with Giro rotors and GTS2 has the PFC front and AP rear. Yes, we bought our old AP kit back and will use it for the first half of the season.