Does anyone prefer m3 handling over a 911 (996/997)?

[porsche959]

Obviously the s65 is the star, but does anyone here prefer the handling/steering feel over 911s?

Seems like a universal truth that comparable 911s handle better, but wondering if anyone here can give their input, if you prefer the way the m3 handles.

[Redd]

Everyone I've spoken to says the Porsche steering feels light as a virtue of the engine being in the back.

[chocstraw]

M3s chassis are a bit better for behaving badly

[tooloud10]

My 996 steering feels lighter and more natural than my M3's. As a whole the 996 is lighter and more tossable but not as quick overall. The 996 feels more like my NA Miata--there's a huge amount of feedback in the steering and suspension, but the limits don't seem as high as the M3, which is a lot sharper.

Of course, I've got a 'weird' fleet of a RWD Miata, 4WD 996, and RWD M3 convertible. The M3 weighs more than 1000 lbs more than my 996.

[New2Roundel]

I've never driven a 911 hard, but on the street doing fairly normal driving, I failed to notice much of a difference between a 997 carrera and my M3. Except brake feel, which was much better in the 997 than the M3. I still ended up with the M3 in the end. If I wanted a track weapon, I have no idea.

[spiderspider]

yes good handling

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by porsche959

Obviously the s65 is the star, but does anyone here prefer the handling/steering feel over 911s?

Seems like a universal truth that comparable 911s handle better, but wondering if anyone here can give their input, if you prefer the way the m3 handles.

Without a doubt the M3 has preferable handling characteristics

However, it's tough to ask the general population about this, as most people don't track and couldn't distinguish handling characteristics if they hit them on the head with a 2x4.
People I know that haven't been to the track in their life enjoy talking to me about handling characteristics of different cars. I listen to them while singing 'lalala' in my head, because unless you can put down a solid lap time I have no interest in hearing stupid Excel page theories on why one thing is faster than another.

Other people like using pro driver measuring sticks as an analogy to what joe six pack can do at the track. This shows how little they understand about tracking a car. If a pro driver is faster in car X than car Y this has little bearing on how fast joe six pack can drive. Specific handling characteristics like spike oversteer for example are something pros will manage pretty well. The regular driver however will be introduced to the wall at Watkins Glen.

The handling of a front-engine rear-drive car is more balanced and more intuitive. It isn't even close. It's why I have an E90 stroker track car instead of a GT3.

I'm a PCA instructor and drive dozens of Porsches every season. I have hundreds and hundreds of 'track days' plus three seasons of AER racing - actually winning. I've driven pretty much everything Porsche has. The one with the most noble handling so far is the GT4, but even the GT4 wants to bite you places where an E9X M3 gently nudges you to communicate its unhappiness.

There was a recent Speed Secrets email that had some notes from a certain pro driver. One of the notes was 'an imbalanced car cannot be fixed by setup changes. Applies to all 911s'.

There is another pro driver that I co-drove 3 seasons of AER with. It's easy to recognize his name as we all see him in the Motortrend videos and has broken the Road Atlanta record first with a 991 GT3 RS and then with a 991 GT2 RS. He easily comments that the setup of a GT3 is only useful for a pro driver.

The 911 formula is flawed. Throughout the years they have gone lengthening the chassis while leaving the engine more and more in the center of the car. This has minimized the ardent desire rear engined cars have of killing their owners. Still, they have indeed improved the handling by moving the engines to what really is a mid-engine car so kudos to them.

A car should work with you to make the most out of its capabilities. 911s do not. A car that bites you when you lift is not a car you can trust and build up your confidence.

At least with the 991 generation of GT3s they have finally gotten to a decent speed on the track. They have good stability control systems so a good driver can finally get some speed out of them. 'Some speed' is still not much though.

Some people say it's unfair for me to beat up on Porsche drivers, that an HPDE is 'not racing' and the people I'm faster than are just regular joe six packs. That is not really true.
Firstly, I run into many people at AER that are at HPDEs. The only change is they drive M3s at AER, as a Cayman S is a class 3 car. Class 3 is where a stock, POS US-spec E36 M3 runs. Meanwhile the world is full of people convinced the Cayman S is somehow a challenge to an M3 at the track... I tell you... hilarious...
Red run group PCA drivers are not just joe six packs. When the chief instructor of your region who has raced more years than you have been alive buys a 996 GT3 and gets obliterated by a stock-engine E9X... this is not because they don't know how to drive.
Another chief instructor used to have an ancient 911 when I had an E46M3. I ran into him recently and he had 991.1 GT3, praising how incredible it handled etc. What happen when faced with the E90? Not good.

Some other people like talking about how the GT3 is 'track-ready' out of the box and doesn't need any mods, whereas the M3 is not set up for the track.
A quick walk around the paddock of any HPDE shows this is false, but again, most of the Porsche apologists don't go to the track so they wouldn't know.
The GT3s that actually go to the track vs stay at home in a garage are modded. The fast ones usually have suspension, brakes, diffs, additional aero... so more mods than what an M3 would get to go to the track in the first place.

A friend got a 991.2 6MT GT3 recently. We took it out for some curvy road driving along with my stock suspension/brake/etc E92 6MT. The GT3 owner offered that he wasn't sure what the GT3 was doing when trying to adjust its behavior in turns and that the E92 M3 was significantly more 'noble'. His words, not mine.



I don't know what causes the 911 to be so popular.

For sure one part of it is the circle-jerk effect, kind of like living in NYC. People in NYC live in 3rd world conditions for the most part but get together and act like they like it.

Another factor is car magazines which extol the many virtues of the 911. Reading in Evo mag about their COTY in 2012 or something I was pretty horrified to re-read their review of the 997.2 GT3 RS and why it won their award. It went along the lines of 'drive it at a normal pace at the track and all you get is understeer understeer understeer. But go into the turn much faster than you think is possible and trust the car and then you are rewarded with incredible performance'.
Therein lies the whole issue. You should not have to 'trust' the car. You should go pushing and the car should tell you when it's happy and when it's not. Some people who sit at their desks and write about how their Excel calculation tells them a 911 should be way faster than a M3 think that a harder car to drive = better. Well, I'm here to tell you that putting down a fast laptime is extremely challenging all by itself, there is no need to look for artificial reasons to have an additional challenge.

Certainly another factor is the badge. Which is why whenever the M4 GTS or other expensive BMW is announced the thread is filled with 'for XX price I would only buy a Porsche' comments, without understanding anything about handling or performance. It is quite telling that people are not interested in actual performance.

[SYT_Shadow]

I look forward to hearing from many people who cannot put a good lap down to save their lives about how wrong I am, that I haven't 'understood' 911s correctly, etc etc

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I look forward to hearing from many people who cannot put a good lap down to save their lives about how wrong I am, that I haven't 'understood' 911s correctly, etc etc

Always enjoy your letters regarding Porsche (and others) vs our old M3s SYT! Haven't been much on the track although enjoyed the few times it happened, so have no clue really about the true performance of Ps nor Ms. Keep the statements from real experience coming!

[akkando]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I look forward to hearing from many people who cannot put a good lap down to save their lives about how wrong I am, that I haven't 'understood' 911s correctly, etc etc

I feel like you're wrong about NYC. I lived there for about 6 years and loved it! Only left because the studio I worked at closed down and got a job out west on something more stable.

[W///]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I look forward to hearing from many people who cannot put a good lap down to save their lives about how wrong I am, that I haven't 'understood' 911s correctly, etc etc

Really enjoy reading your feedback. For what it's worth, I'm definitely Joe six pack in your eyes

Still doesn't stop me from the 997 GT3 being a dream car of mine. Only GT car I've driven is the GT4.

Having said that, there's a few thing that really surprise me. I have a hard time justifying any Porsche I'd actually want because they cost twice more than all my M's combined. I just cannot imagine they would bring me that much more driving joy that having the choice of 3 M cars that I really enjoy. Not to mention a 997 GT3 is same price as something like a higher mileage F430 or earlier Gallardo. It does make me pause and reconsider for sure.

Secondly, I'm surprised at how much preventative things 997 platform need. Between a Turbo and GT3 (different personalities, I know), you're looking at pinning coolant lines, center lock issues, spun camshafts, needing to send the diff to get rebuilt, turbos going bad at the tune of a few grand. Needless to say, none of these repairs/maintenance are cheap.

We'll see how the 981 Spyders hold up over the years. I'm thinking e92 M3 and Spyder combo might be a nice one.

Thanks again for your feedback!

[MTrezzz]

As a 991.2 Owner and 2013 LimeRock 6X

The M3 is better for Noobs
The 991.2 is more for Pros

Why?

You can correct the M3 easier than a 991.2
But if you know how to use the throttle and balance
It in the corners the 991.2 is way better.

It all depends really on how you like to drive.


Both amazing and once you change a few things on the E9X it's right behind supercars lol

The M3 is the best bank for buck car in all honesty Porsche is more expensive for no reason.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I look forward to hearing from many people who cannot put a good lap down to save their lives about how wrong I am, that I haven't 'understood' 911s correctly, etc etc

Depends what you mean by 'putting down a good lap'. Is that 'best feeling lap' or 'fastest lap'?

It seems difficult to find published lap times with the same driver/track/conditions that show an M4 GTS being faster than a 991 GT3...and by that I mean I couldn't find any.

[Longboarder]

I had a 997. Never like the steering/ handling characteristics. Tried to upgrade with Ohlins coils and other suspension bits from two different highly regarded companies (first BBI and then GMG) but never felt right on the track.

Then the 991's came out and the world changed. 991 Turbos and GT3/RS chassis and steering feel is beyond amazing. Steering is electric but interestingly feels similar to BMW mechanical steering. With minor alignment tweaks the 991's are completely neutral in low and high speed transitions. Meaning....not tail happy. Track times for lightly modded Turbos are nearing that of Cup cars. But that's not what this thread is about. I prefer the E90 chassis/steering to the 997 by far. But the 991's are so good I cannot make that same statement. Plus the 991's are so fast can't compare to the M models. They are competitors to the supercars - MacLaren, Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I had a 997. Never like the steering/ handling characteristics. Tried to upgrade with Ohlins coils and other suspension bits from two different highly regarded companies (first BBI and then GMG) but never felt right on the track.

Then the 991's came out and the world changed. 991 Turbos and GT3/RS chassis and steering feel is beyond amazing. Steering is electric but interestingly feels similar to BMW mechanical steering. With minor alignment tweaks the 991's are completely neutral in low and high speed transitions. Meaning....not tail happy. Track times for lightly modded Turbos are nearing that of Cup cars. But that's not what this thread is about. I prefer the E90 chassis/steering to the 997 by far. But the 991's are so good I cannot make that same statement. Plus the 991's are so fast can't compare to the M models. They are competitors to the supercars - MacLaren, Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc.

991 is the first gen with active rear steering, right?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

991 is the first gen with active rear steering, right?

Yes. And other substantial changes like longer wheelbase. And the engine/trans moved closer to center of the car....and improved weight distribution and suspension geometry...and....literally a completely new car.

[JackieChiles]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I had a 997. Never like the steering/ handling characteristics. Tried to upgrade with Ohlins coils and other suspension bits from two different highly regarded companies (first BBI and then GMG) but never felt right on the track.

Then the 991's came out and the world changed. 991 Turbos and GT3/RS chassis and steering feel is beyond amazing. Steering is electric but interestingly feels similar to BMW mechanical steering. With minor alignment tweaks the 991's are completely neutral in low and high speed transitions. Meaning....not tail happy. Track times for lightly modded Turbos are nearing that of Cup cars. But that's not what this thread is about. I prefer the E90 chassis/steering to the 997 by far. But the 991's are so good I cannot make that same statement. Plus the 991's are so fast can't compare to the M models. They are competitors to the supercars - MacLaren, Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc.

Agree 100% with this.

M3 is a great car and very easy to drive.

991 is special for sure, and a 991 gt3 is just incredible.

[Dave07997S]

Just wanted to reply as well. I owned a 997.1S before my first E92 M3. I prefer the E92 M3s handling over the 997 pretty much what other people have said. The front end always felt too light and mid corner understeer would always show its head. You need to relearn how to drive fast with a 997 vs. the more conventional E9X cars.

I learned you had to slightly brake mid corner to get the weight to shift forward a tad to get the front end to grip and than back on the gas to power out of the corner onto the straight, in which the rear engine car was brilliant at.

BTW, the 997.2s did improve on this though and the 991s are in a different league all together.

In the right hands though a 997.1S is a beast though.

Dave

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by MTrezzz

As a 991.2 Owner and 2013 LimeRock 6X

The M3 is better for Noobs
The 991.2 is more for Pros

Why?

You can correct the M3 easier than a 991.2
But if you know how to use the throttle and balance
It in the corners the 991.2 is way better.

It all depends really on how you like to drive.


Both amazing and once you change a few things on the E9X it's right behind supercars lol

The M3 is the best bank for buck car in all honesty Porsche is more expensive for no reason.

The OP said 997 not 991..completely different animal.

[TheKosherStogie]

While I love an e9xm3. Have owned 4. I love Porsche’s handling and prefer. Have owned 997.2gt3, 997.1gt3, 964, 993c2s, 991GTS.

I think rear engine platform shines! The car is very intuitive and tells you what it’s doing. Use it for its strengths. Exiting turns and braking.

I’ve tracked for 10 years at all the SoCal tracks and have respectable times. And I think to say the 911 is flawed is crazy. It’s fun and amazing to drive at the limit. And hell I find the older ones way more fun to drive at the limit compared to the newer. They’re easier and easier now.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by TheKosherStogie

While I love an e9xm3. Have owned 4. I love Porsche’s handling and prefer. Have owned 997.2gt3, 997.1gt3, 964, 993c2s, 991GTS.

I think rear engine platform shines! The car is very intuitive and tells you what it’s doing. Use it for its strengths. Exiting turns and braking.

I’ve tracked for 10 years at all the SoCal tracks and have respectable times. And I think to say the 911 is flawed is crazy. It’s fun and amazing to drive at the limit. And hell I find the older ones way more fun to drive at the limit compared to the newer. They’re easier and easier now.

Like I said, in the right hands and someone who knows how to use its strengths will be a beast. It just take some getting used to especially with the 997.1 cars. One thing though...the 997.1S cars didn't come with an LSD, your cars were mainly GT3 cars which did have the LSD...makes a huge difference.

Dave

[Richbot]

I'd much rather have an E9xM than any 911 as a street vehicle, but It depends what you want.

The 911 has always been a car I wanted to want, until I drive one, each generation it's been the same deal, this is fun, I get why people like them, but don't like it better than my car, and wouldn't trade even if it was free. The 997.1S I drove about 6-7 years ago was a limp handshake, huge disapointment in basically all respects. I drove a 991.2S last year hoping THAT would be the one that finally had all the things I wanted, but no, not really (although, finally, enough torque to break the rear tires loose on demand, is a big improvement!)

Limit handling, the 911 is awesome, it's a great deal of fun to extract max potential from because it's very interesting puzzle of weight transfer vs. narrow, usually unweighted front tires, vs. basically unlimited traction. But, as SYT mentioned above, I'm not a joe six pack, I race a mid-engine open cockpit car wheel to wheel for fun, I'm used to running around a racetrack smiling while I drive a car that is almost crashing all the time, in a class that has a lot of people driving identical cars who can quickly show you whether you suck or not, so my opinion is aberrant.

I think the 911 in general is lacking a lot of area under the curve that other cars manage to nail in everyday situations. By contrast, the only thing stopping me from being a Boxster owner is daily usefulness (agree they can still bite in a way an FR car won't, but man they're happy cars, that you put on like a suit more than sit in). Every 911 I've driven has felt aloof (because they're just straight bolted down to the ground in just about all situations) in normal street driving in a way that I just don't care for, but the Boxster/Caymans I've tried always feel lively and ready for activities. I think the major difference is, does the car feel alive under you below the limit, or not. The E9x always feels like something is going on and it needs YOU, the DRIVER, to take care of it. A lot of this is just a function of lower limits, but there are also fundamental "flaws" with an FR platform that turn the drive into a bigger giggle.

I still haven't had the chance to try a GT3 or GT2 yet so maybe they're different but at that point, they damn well better be.