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08-16-2010, 07:22 PM | #1 |
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4000 ton vs 8000 ton forgings
Does it really make a difference in an automotive wheel application or is the 8000 ton number just cock waving? Is there a point of diminishing returns in an automotive wheel application? I know there have been discussions about this in the past but all you see is 8000 is stronger than 4000. Well, of course but my question is, does it really matter in this application.
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08-17-2010, 10:56 AM | #2 |
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Nobody up to having a technical discussion or have the guys who really know a lot about this stuff left the forum?
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08-17-2010, 11:44 AM | #3 |
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I posted a response earlier today, but it failed for some reason.
Short version: 8000 ton = more grain distortion = higher yield strength Probably diminishing returns going from 4000 to 8000 tons. Many people are willing to pay extra for the slightly higher strength. |
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08-17-2010, 11:48 AM | #4 |
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Not a complete answer but having an 8000ton forged wheel vs a 4000ton forged wheel does not necessarily make it stronger in all cases.
If the wheel design is exactly the same and the same exact amount of material is used then yes 8000ton would be stronger. But if a company using 8000ton forgings decides to shave a lot of material off to make it super light then a 4000ton forged wheel using the proper amount of material can be stronger. |
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08-17-2010, 12:04 PM | #5 | |
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08-17-2010, 12:19 PM | #6 |
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bingo...the 4000ton vs 8000ton is a lot in the marketing.
It is incorrect to say that a 4000ton forged wheel is stronger than an 8000ton forged wheel. There are many variables that come into play when designing a strong wheel. It isn't dependent on material only. |
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08-17-2010, 03:57 PM | #7 | |
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The general need for higher pressure forging machines is simply to forge larger parts from stronger materials. In the aluminum area there are many factors more important to the strength of the finished items than the forging pressure. Those include:
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08-17-2010, 04:08 PM | #8 |
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oh yeah well my wheels are 10,000 ton forged [/endcockwave]
...but seriously, as stated above the higher tonage is used to allow more material to be removed to make the wheel lighter.
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08-17-2010, 04:08 PM | #9 |
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Good info all around. The long and short of it is: it's complicated. No single factor determines the strength of a wheel, and most of the time, with each upgrade to the manufacturing process, there is a choice to go for an increase in strength, or a reduction in weight.
Design, as swamp noted, is very important, and without advanced engineering analysis, that's not something that can readily determined. I am no metallurgist, but I deal with a lot of wheels of pretty much any production process imaginable, and other than the fact that forged > cast, it's extremely hard to generalize. And even then, some excellent cast wheels may end up serving better than poorly forged wheels. So the 8000 ton *could* allow for a stronger wheel, but it does not guarantee it.
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08-17-2010, 06:12 PM | #10 |
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Does anyone know if there is a spec as far as strength is concerned in any of the governing bodies. JWL, TUV or whatever. If there is, I would guess that most companies would just design for that spec regardless of what material is being used. Once the design strength is determined, they can then begin to play with other variables like weight.
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08-17-2010, 06:26 PM | #11 | |
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If someone really tried, they could make a super light forged wheel that is very weak. This is why most wheels (forged or cast) all weigh the same or very close to each other. When one sticks out becareful. If it isnt properly designed from the get go there can be problems. Forged wheel companies make a safe design that lets them mill the backpad for specific offsets w/o risking a wheel failure. This leads to more weight. Now with wheels like RAC. The wheel is built for a specific offset/size so they can play with weight reducing techniques and then have that specific wheel fitment certified since it wont be altered. This guarantees it is strong enough for your vehicle. Hope that makes sense...I am in a hurry. |
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08-17-2010, 10:22 PM | #13 |
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its not how many tons, its the manufacturing process that makes a wheel strong.
One forge wheel is not equal to the other, and sometimes even good cast wheels are better than a shitty forged wheel, like the shit that comes out of Miami. |
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08-17-2010, 10:41 PM | #14 | |
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08-17-2010, 11:46 PM | #15 | |
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You just cut down half of the USA forged wheel manufacturers. LoL!
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08-17-2010, 11:58 PM | #16 | |
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Actually I guess you shouldve written the shit that comes out of California...? Oh wait and these Miami companies buy their forgings from the same people that all the other US companies buy them from. So I guess you shouldve said all the shit that comes from the US... Hell the 20x13 that ADV.1 uses comes from Alcoa. I think we can both agree those forgings are far better than most...? |
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08-18-2010, 12:00 AM | #17 |
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08-19-2010, 10:56 AM | #18 |
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Based on this post
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421385 It appears wheel manufacturers do shoot for a predetermined strength and then lighten as much as possible. So it seems like nobody really tries to max out on strength since they probably all shoot for the same load rating. Like others have said here, this means that the whole 8000 > 4000 argument really makes no sense unless you compare the entire manufacturing process. This was a good discussion that for once didn't end up in a pissing match between certain groups supporting different manufacturers. Thanks everyone for keeping it a purely technical discussion.
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08-19-2010, 01:14 PM | #19 | |
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08-19-2010, 01:50 PM | #21 |
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As a rule of thumb:
Life: If it looks too good to be true...Stay away Wheels: If a forged/cast one piece 19x8.5 is 3lbs lighter than all other competitors you should probably stay away or do a lot of research before risking a failure. |
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