Cayman GT4 vs E92 M3 (very long but organized)

[DSilk]

As a long time Porsche lover (mostly the 911) I would love to have a Cayman GT4. Sad to say that the needs of a family have precluded the purchase of a 2 seater for many years, which is why I drive a BMW M3. The Cayman to me is a better setup than the 911, which will never have the balance of a mid-engined car, and Porsche is doing the same thing to the Boxster/Cayman that it did to the 928; Making sure that it is slower than the 911 so that its signature car can remain at the top of the Porsche food chain.

[davesaddiction]

Originally Posted by DSilk

As a long time Porsche lover (mostly the 911) I would love to have a Cayman GT4. Sad to say that the needs of a family have precluded the purchase of a 2 seater for many years, which is why I drive a BMW M3. The Cayman to me is a better setup than the 911, which will never have the balance of a mid-engined car, and Porsche is doing the same thing to the Boxster/Cayman that it did to the 928; Making sure that it is slower than the 911 so that its signature car can remain at the top of the Porsche food chain.

GT3 RS > GT3 = 911 R > GT4 = 911 GTS > 911 S > Cayman GTS = 911 > Cayman S (roughly)

The two product lines overlap quite a bit more with the addition of the GT4, and the GT4 PDK (and RS, if they make it) will only nip closer at the heels of the GT3.

[davesaddiction]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I've thought about that Harry's strategy, but even if you wait to look at lap times until later, you're still out there knowing that you're trying to set a lap time. But yeah the people who have the predictive lap timing showing how far off pace they are from their theoretical best or their last lap is a whole other level of risk. No way I'd touch that while driving a car I wouldn't mind walking away from.

On the R8, it was one of my bucket list cars as well, so I sort of hated my friend when he first got it (before the GT4 existed). But I've now driven it twice out on Hill Country roads out here, once before and once after I got the GT4, and the simplest way to say it is that Audi's (semi-)supercar simply has too much Audi in it. The steering is numb and criminally overboosted (which all Audi models are, but I'd have expected better on the R8), and the suspension is a bit too soft even in the firmer setting. But my two biggest letdowns were the shifter and the noise, probably because those were where I'd expected to be wowed the most. Everyone raved about the "snick-snick" sound of the R8's open-faced shifter. I thought that was the sound that it made going into and out of gears -- turns out it's the noise it makes scraping against the walls of the gate! The shifter also doesn't have a lot of heft to it, and the gates are pretty narrow considering the width of the "dividers", so shifting felt flimsy rather than meaty, and an aggressive 2>3 shift carried a reasonable risk that you'd slam into the divider between 1st and 3rd rather than engaging 3rd. And I couldn't believe (in a bad way) how quiet the car was considering that there was a big 5.2L V10 right behind me. It was also kind of slow to rev compared to the S65, presumably because it had so much more rotating mass. In a lot of ways I thought the S65 gave the M3 more "theater" to its driving experience, which is especially disappointing considering that the R8's MSRP was 2.5x higher than my M3's. I don't know if Audi just had a mandate to keep the Gallardo adequately differentiated or if they deliberately designed the R8 for their A8/S8 customers who wanted a supercar that drove like an A8/S8, but considering how gorgeous it looks on the outside, I was disappointed behind the wheel.

So that was my first experience with it. The second time, I'd had my GT4 for a while and my friend had gotten a Capristo exhaust for his R8, and this time I drove it on a road with much tighter corners. On that drive I noticed how heavy the R8 is. I didn't notice before since it's 100 lbs lighter than the E92 and the corners were more sweepers, but it's 600 lbs heavier than a GT4, and having experienced the superior agility of the GT4 over my M3, I was left wanting with the R8. The Capristo exhaust definitely cured the sound problem (for $6K....), to the point that it was now a bit too loud for my taste, but it was still much better overall. But the other problem that these really twisty roads surfaced for me is that it just has too much power to be totally fun, at least in that setting -- instead, it's fun tainted too much by fear. The acceleration pulls I had were definitely exhilarating, thanks in no small part to AWD helping put all that power down, but getting all the way to redline in 2nd was frightening because of the rate of acceleration. The M3 (and GT4 for that matter) by comparison offer more than you need on public roads, but not so much more that it becomes LESS fun. I don't know, maybe I'd get more accustomed to the speed if I drove it on a regular basis. My M3 after all felt ludicrously quick to me when I first got it, and then after a while just felt "fun fast" as I adapted, though it always impressed/scared my friends who weren't used to performance cars. But I can't help but think that there's got to be a tipping point somewhere beyond which you do not acclimate fully, and the R8 V10 may be beyond that point. My buddy the owner drives it like a grandma, sadly, so he can't offer any insight here.

I'm reminded of the Evo 2015 CotY contest, specifically the evaluations of the GT3RS and 488 wherein they said that although both of those were phenomenal cars, both of them compared to their predecessors were just giving you more of what you can't use on public roads, whereas the GT4 won because it had plenty of power to be fun on public roads but not so much that you had to either be suicidal or just leave a huge chunk of the car's reserves untapped in that setting. I never thought I'd find myself wishing for less power in a car, and if it weren't for twisty back road driving I probably wouldn't for the R8 either, but the GT4 seems much better suited to that type of driving. The back to back experience just reinforced to me that not all fast cars are fun, and not all fun cars are fast. In my view, the GT4 strikes a very nice balance in the way it's fast without being scary fast, which allows it to be capable on track while remaining very fun on the road, arguably more fun than both some slower cars AND some faster cars.

Thanks again for sharing your experience. I still love the design of the R8, but experience trumps all for me, so it's slid a few spots on my list...

[BrewRifle]

Great detailed and brutally honest write up as usual, John. I still need to catch a ride in the GT4 and you're more than welcome to drive my car once I get some new rubber on the rears. It doesn't have nearly as much suspension and brake work, but the added power from the blower should change the equation.

[Rambler]

Excellent write up jphughan, thanks for taking the time to post this.

This extends my love of the GT4 while also coming back to fully appreciate my E92 for how great it is (a kick that I need every now and then).

[cmo_93]

Awesome review man! Those are some of the same things I noticed. The cargo space was a deal breaker for me due to my lifestyle... but otherwise, the car is much better than I had expected and I enjoyed some aspects of it much more than my m3.

[8k4]

Originally Posted by davesaddiction

GT3 RS > GT3 = 911 R > GT4 = 911 GTS > 911 S > Cayman GTS = 911 > Cayman S (roughly)

The two product lines overlap quite a bit more with the addition of the GT4, and the GT4 PDK (and RS, if they make it) will only nip closer at the heels of the GT3.

Personally I thought the Cayman GTS was an order of magnitude better than a 911 S, not so much in power but in balance and handling

[rjd598]

cliff notes for those who can't read good

[spiderspider]

Originally Posted by rjd598

cliff notes for those who can't read good

700 pound lighter mid engine brand new 2 seater is different from big heavy V8 older generation sedan/coupe

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by rjd598

cliff notes for those who can't read good

GT4 is definitely a big step up from the M3 in performance and overall driving experience, but less significant if you won't track, and although surprisingly DDable, it may not be worth the practicality tradeoffs for people who need more contiguous storage and/or rear seats. Also, the S65 even today remains a total gem of an engine.

The M3 even in F8x form I am convinced remains the best all-purpose car out there for track people in terms of its blend of performance, comfort, convenience/tech features, practicality, styling, price, and overall fun, with the possible exception of a Golf R/GTI if you'd trade some performance for more practicality and a lower price.

[New2Roundel]

Nice review, thanks for posting! I have never driven any of the current cayman/boxster iterations, but I did drive a fairly basic 987 boxster when it first came out. Even as the slowest Porsche sports car, it was such a blast to drive. It made the often mundane task of steering and braking such a wonderful experience. With a newer generation and a version designed to excel on the track, I can only imagine that the experience would only be outdone by a proper exotic car, like a ferrari or lambo.

I like my e92, but I would have zero problems trading it in tomorrow for a GT4 if I suddenly came into the necessary funds. GT4+euro delivery would be my automotive dream.

I'm happy to hear that you've tracked the car as well. Best of luck with it in the future!

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by spiderspider

700 pound lighter mid engine brand new 2 seater is different from big heavy V8 older generation sedan/coupe

well duh

Originally Posted by jphughan

GT4 is definitely a big step up from the M3 in performance and overall driving experience, but less significant if you won't track, and although surprisingly DDable, it may not be worth the practicality tradeoffs for people who need more contiguous storage and/or rear seats. Also, the S65 even today remains a total gem of an engine.

The M3 even in F8x form I am convinced remains the best all-purpose car out there for track people in terms of its blend of performance, comfort, convenience/tech features, practicality, styling, price, and overall fun, with the possible exception of a Golf R/GTI if you'd trade some performance for more practicality and a lower price.

this is what i was looking for. thanks for writing this out. kind of surprised by this, but then again the point of the m3 has always to be the best bargain in its segment for overall purposes.

[atxgt3]

I have a 991 GT3 and a ZCP E92 M3, and while I haven't tracked them I feel like I've been too spoiled by the GT3 to appreciate the M3 on a track. The difference in weight is immense, I notice it even on the street. I feel far less confident in the M3 than in the GT3. I'm sure I could push it harder, but the GT3 has so much less weight, better suspension, and better tires (although that's an easy fix) that I don't even feel like pushing the M3.

It's amazing how much of a difference the weight makes, as well as the newer technology.

[ericxog]

Great write-up.

The want for a GT4 is real for me.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

I have a 991 GT3 and a ZCP E92 M3, and while I haven't tracked them I feel like I've been too spoiled by the GT3 to appreciate the M3 on a track. The difference in weight is immense, I notice it even on the street. I feel far less confident in the M3 than in the GT3. I'm sure I could push it harder, but the GT3 has so much less weight, better suspension, and better tires (although that's an easy fix) that I don't even feel like pushing the M3.

It's amazing how much of a difference the weight makes, as well as the newer technology.

You live in Austin, have a GT3 and an M3, and haven't tracked either one?? What are you waiting for, man!?

Most of the people on Rennlist who have (or at least have experienced) both the GT3 and GT4 are saying that the GT4 is more fun on the road for the same reason I said I liked it better than the R8 earlier, but that the GT3 offers an unquestionably superior experience on track.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by jphughan

You live in Austin, have a GT3 and an M3, and haven't tracked either one?? What are you waiting for, man!?

Most of the people on Rennlist who have (or at least have experienced) both the GT3 and GT4 are saying that the GT4 is more fun on the road for the same reason I said I liked it better than the R8 earlier, but that the GT3 offers an unquestionably superior experience on track.

Haha I know, I should.. at some point. Just hard to find the time! I have taken it on some spirited Hill Country background cruises, though.

The GT3 is a lot of fun on the street and it behaves very well. For a track car it comes extremely close to being a daily driver, the only real caveats being the low ride height (although I have the front lift) and the PDK not really liking stop and go traffic very much. It's too much fun, it's way too easy to want to rev it to 9k all the time! It's definitely a wild animal that doesn't like to be contained.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

Haha I know, I should.. at some point. Just hard to find the time! I have taken it on some spirited Hill Country background cruises, though.

Sounds a lot like the old, "I really want to go to the gym, but I just can never fit it into my schedule" to me! It's amazing how much time materializes for things when you just decide that you're going to do them rather than waiting until you find yourself with a huge stretch of free time that you have to make an effort to fill, which we all know practically never happens. Plus going to the track requires some advance planning anyway. So here is the Edge Addicts website and the Chin Motorsports website. They're the main organizations running CotA, and then there's also the BMW CCA Texas Trifecta in June (you don't have to run a BMW, just be a member of BMW CCA). PCA might have something too, not sure. The first step to getting out on track is signing up!

[BPMSport]

Cliffs notes?

My 6S Plus ran out of memory displaying the thread

JK - I would expect nothing less from you John. Great writeup, your car is a beaut

Really looking forward to driving it one of these days.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Sounds a lot like the old, "I really want to go to the gym, but I just can never fit it into my schedule" to me! It's amazing how much time materializes for things when you just decide that you're going to do them rather than waiting until you find yourself with a huge stretch of free time that you have to make an effort to fill, which we all know practically never happens. Plus going to the track requires some advance planning anyway. So here is the Edge Addicts website and the Chin Motorsports website. They're the main organizations running CotA, and then there's also the BMW CCA Texas Trifecta in June (you don't have to run a BMW, just be a member of BMW CCA). PCA might have something too, not sure. The first step to getting out on track is signing up!

One of the reasons I'm a little hesitant is that the previous owner tracked the car a couple of times, and I saw what a toll it took on the car. I need to replace the rotors, the XPEL was completely beat up, had to replace all the plastic trim because of rock chips etc. And he only tracked it a couple of times. It gets expensive, and in reality I don't have time to track it enough to become good at it with three young kids taking my time. I'll probably just rent a GT3 for a track day lol.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

One of the reasons I'm a little hesitant is that the previous owner tracked the car a couple of times, and I saw what a toll it took on the car. I need to replace the rotors, the XPEL was completely beat up, had to replace all the plastic trim because of rock chips etc. And he only tracked it a couple of times. It gets expensive, and in reality I don't have time to track it enough to become good at it with three young kids taking my time. I'll probably just rent a GT3 for a track day lol.

Well rotors are consumables and clear bra is the sacrificial material to protect the paint. That's what it's for. I doubt track use was primarily responsible for most of that anyway. I guess I'm just blessed not to be car OCD. I paid to get clear bra installed, but after that I just accept that it's a car that actually sees the road (and track), not a piece of garage art. Hell I pat myself on the back if I manage if I get my car washed once a month! Keeping a car clean is a losing battle IMHO, so there's only so much time, effort, and money I'm willing to sink into it.

Renting track cars is expensive too, especially if you want something like a GT3. Well at any rate, if you haven't already done so, come out as a spectator and catch rides sometime. I instruct with Edge Addicts so there's a 97% chance I'll be there whenever they are. PM before one of their events if you ever want to come see what you're missing.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Sounds a lot like the old, "I really want to go to the gym, but I just can never fit it into my schedule" to me! It's amazing how much time materializes for things when you just decide that you're going to do them rather than waiting until you find yourself with a huge stretch of free time that you have to make an effort to fill, which we all know practically never happens.

Ain't that just the truth about most things in life. "Don't have the time" usually translates to "I bought it for flex", but it's all good.

[ayao]

I turned down a MSRP allocation 6 months ago and have eventually come to peace with that decision. Your post is going to be sending me back to therapy.