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      08-30-2018, 07:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmy23 View Post
You will only hear this on our forum. I actually wanted a moonroof on my e90. Am I still an enthusiast, you betcha!

OP, to answer your question, yes I still would buy an e90 without a moonroof unless it's a hard requirement for you
yup... ordered my E90 with moonroof because I prefer it over steel roof. If there was a CF roof option like the F80 I would've done that.
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      08-30-2018, 08:00 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dparm View Post
It's a very vocal minority of people who cream their pants over slicktops (which are often found in the stripped-down cars anyway). It's a rare combination...because the vast majority of buyers weren't about to spend $60k on a BMW and skimp on options.
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      08-30-2018, 08:22 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ///Mbitions View Post
Slick top e90s are preferred by probably 75-90% of people looking for an e90. I myself have been contemplating selling the e92 for an e90 with no sunroof, but it’s hard to give up the CF roof. It’s just too damn sexy.
If it's in good condition, yes, I'd get it if I was looking for an m3.
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      08-31-2018, 02:42 AM   #26
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Sports car - slicktop, everything else - full glass roof if possible.
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      08-31-2018, 06:08 AM   #27
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It made it hard 6 years ago in my search for a 2011 6MT slicktop, but there is no way I would have purchased it with a sunroof. Besides never using a sunroof, the reduction in headroom is significant and prevents me from wearing a helmet. I already knew this was the case since we've owned an E90 330i since new and were forced to buy it with a sunroof (premium package stuff wasn't available otherwise).

The resale market is stronger for slicktop E90 M3s -- just ask EAG; they immediately sell at strong pricing the combo of E90 ZCP 6MT slicktop. It's the most desirable car they want to purchase.

I hated that my E39 M5 had to have a sunroof...the entire 14+ years I owned the car. Sadly, BMWNA didn't import a single one with a slicktop while in every other market in the world, customers were able to choose.

Our E91 has a monster sunroof which of course was forced on every imported E91 by BMWNA. It goes much further back than the sedan such that it dramatically imposes on rear headroom. I'm only 6'2", but I can't sit in the rear of the E91 without leaning to the side. It's ridiculous. It rattles over bumps, and probably weighs close to 100lbs.

At least on M-cars BMW has made the sunroof a standalone option, starting with the E90, so customers can have a choice. We have an M2C on order with a slicktop, and if it wasn't available that way, I would not have bought the car.
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      08-31-2018, 08:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derbo View Post


Benefit of no sunroof is the helmet clearance. It's just nicer to have that extra room for the taller folks (though, that isn't me.)

For me, had I found one with a sunroof but met my other requirements, I would've purchased that instead because E90M3 LCI 6MT is a rarity to begin with.
That white slick top e90 is so freaking clean!
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      08-31-2018, 09:38 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlamFire View Post
Lack of sunroof really only "adds" value to a small % of enthusiasts.

I'd imagine have that one extra option box tick'ed would add a bit of value compared to a slick top for the vast majority of buyers out there. People who don't belong to forums like options, and most people don't belong to forums. We are the minority.

As mentioned before unless you're tracking your car and need the helmet headroom / little extra bit of rigidity then it comes down to personal preference.

Personally I like open top motoring so much I went for the vert. Being able to better hear the S65 scream makes up for any weight penalty to me. Trunk space be damned.
There are so few E90 M3s and this is such a niche car that the entire market is enthusiasts. You don't buy an expensive +/- decade old car that requires a lot of maintenance if you aren't a car nerd in the first place.

Keep in mind that we are talking about an original total of less than a thousand slicktop LCI cars. After a decade of M3 attrition, I wouldn't be surprised if the number remaining is between 500 and 750.

It's a *tiny* market. And it's a tiny market that is basically oriented towards nerds. And nerds are picky. if we were talking about cars that were new to only a few years old, that would be one thing. But we aren't. The average buyer isn't buying these.
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      08-31-2018, 11:55 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_130i_oz View Post
Would you buy a mint e90 m3 in alpine white without a sunroof? I think BMWs look a bit odd without a sunroof, unless it has a carbon roof.

Thoughts?

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Slicktop! Here is mine
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      08-31-2018, 12:47 PM   #31
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If I had a choice I would prefer a sunroof. I want all the bells and whistles a car can offer me. But it wouldn't be a deal killer by a long shot whether it had a sunroof or did not. But I enjoy the extra light a moon roof can offer and when you push the button forward, you get the added ventilation without messing up your hair lol.
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      08-31-2018, 03:09 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
There are so few E90 M3s and this is such a niche car that the entire market is enthusiasts. You don't buy an expensive +/- decade old car that requires a lot of maintenance if you aren't a car nerd in the first place.

Keep in mind that we are talking about an original total of less than a thousand slicktop LCI cars. After a decade of M3 attrition, I wouldn't be surprised if the number remaining is between 500 and 750.

It's a *tiny* market. And it's a tiny market that is basically oriented towards nerds. And nerds are picky. if we were talking about cars that were new to only a few years old, that would be one thing. But we aren't. The average buyer isn't buying these.
I'm not arguing that there aren't few slick top E90's, but I still stand by that the people who seek them out specifically are still the minority of "picky nerds" as compared to everyone else.

Most average E9X M3's with moderate miles are in the low to mid 20's where I am. That price bracket alone attracts plenty of non-"hardcore"-enthusiasts who don't care if it's an e92/3 or e90 M3 so long as it's an M3. With 25k you can cross shop 5th Camaro SS, 5.0 Mustangs, and 5.7 challeys with pre/post LCI M3s because performance and V8 alone.

I'd wager there are far more of these buyers than you think, and I'd be surprised if they had a strong feeling about sunroofs or are aware of the S65's extra needs as compared to American pushrod V8s.
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      08-31-2018, 03:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlamFire View Post
I'm not arguing that there aren't few slick top E90's, but I still stand by that the people who seek them out specifically are still the minority of "picky nerds" as compared to everyone else.
Does wanting a specific color make someone a picky nerd? If preferring slicktop is being a picky nerd I cant imagine what wanting ZCP is

I have a sunroof but would prefer slicktop simply because I never use it and aesthetically it doesnt look as good to me but some sacrifices had to be made to find a 6spd MR E90 with speed cloth.
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      08-31-2018, 04:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Aktavate View Post
Does wanting a specific color make someone a picky nerd? If preferring slicktop is being a picky nerd I cant imagine what wanting ZCP is

I have a sunroof but would prefer slicktop simply because I never use it and aesthetically it doesnt look as good to me but some sacrifices had to be made to find a 6spd MR E90 with speed cloth.
NERDSSSSSS


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      08-31-2018, 04:11 PM   #35
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I bought a 'slicktop E90 M3. I've never looked back or wished I had a sunroof. In my E60 M5 it was quite pleasurable.
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      08-31-2018, 05:26 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
There are so few E90 M3s and this is such a niche car that the entire market is enthusiasts. You don't buy an expensive +/- decade old car that requires a lot of maintenance if you aren't a car nerd in the first place.

Keep in mind that we are talking about an original total of less than a thousand slicktop LCI cars. After a decade of M3 attrition, I wouldn't be surprised if the number remaining is between 500 and 750.

It's a *tiny* market. And it's a tiny market that is basically oriented towards nerds. And nerds are picky. if we were talking about cars that were new to only a few years old, that would be one thing. But we aren't. The average buyer isn't buying these.
There are definitely repeat buyers or people that camp out on the forums for years before they buy the car, but with every performance car I've bought, I've decided I wanted one, trolled the forums for a month or so to figure out what the problem areas are, and then bought the car I wanted. It is only after owning the car and really getting active in the community that I understood all these tiny nuances and what my car had and didn't have that was or wasn't desirable. For example, I specifically didn't want ZCP because I didn't want to deal with adjustable suspension failures. This is the thought process someone "new to the community, but into fun cars" would go through.

Before I bought my E90 I didn't have any understanding or awareness of the desirability of slicktop models. I also didn't understand I had a rare color other than the obvious fact that most BMWs are black/white/silver. In fact I didn't even know that E90s were significantly limited in production compared to E92s.

My last Corvette had a very specific and desirable interior color combination that everyone flipped out on the forums. When I posted the car for sale I did it on the forums and on craigslist. Everyone on the forums fawned over my car but they were all tire kickers. The person that ended up buying my car was a craigslist person that zero knowledge about the interior option, and was cross shopping base and z06 models which is incomprehensible within the community.

I tend to buy interesting cars and every time the car I vastly overestimated how desirable the "rare" features are. One time I had a Taurus SHO that I was selling and the guy had never heard of an SHO but just wanted a stickshift which you can't find on any other Taurus.

But I never sold on forums, always to the "outside world". I do think that you can get the premiums for those rare features on the forums but I have learned that it's not the end all be all. If you do have a unicorn car you are definitely best served selling it to the right community (aka forum people)
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      09-03-2018, 08:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.TT View Post
My last Corvette had a very specific and desirable interior color combination that everyone flipped out on the forums. When I posted the car for sale I did it on the forums and on craigslist. Everyone on the forums fawned over my car but they were all tire kickers. The person that ended up buying my car was a craigslist person that zero knowledge about the interior option, and was cross shopping base and z06 models which is incomprehensible within the community.

I tend to buy interesting cars and every time the car I vastly overestimated how desirable the "rare" features are. One time I had a Taurus SHO that I was selling and the guy had never heard of an SHO but just wanted a stickshift which you can't find on any other Taurus.
Yep, I agree with all of this. I started out shopping for a 335i/is convertible and realized that I could get an M3 for just a couple grand more, so started including them in my searches and ended up buying one.

Hell, the popularity of the heavier E93 proves that these cars mostly aren't bought by hardcore enthusiasts. The VAST majority of these cars have never seen a track and never will, so to wax poetic about helmet space and lighter curb weight is something reserved pretty exclusively to these kinds of forums.
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      09-04-2018, 11:17 AM   #38
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Slicktop here, slicktop preferred. just one less thing to break is my primary reason, "exclusivity" (real or perceived) isn't a huge deal to me. Personally, if my car ever gets hail damage, I'll be retrofitting a CF roof for sure lol
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      09-04-2018, 11:26 AM   #39
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I’m curious if a slicktop or ZCP gives a bigger performance advantage. Weight loss helps in all aspects of performance and we know the ZCP differences are minor. Neither is noticeable on the street but here we are, people love or hate ZCP, they are either objective and willing to modify, or just prefer the best starting point that BMW created.
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      09-04-2018, 11:29 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyatth View Post
I’m curious if a slicktop or ZCP gives a bigger performance advantage. Weight loss helps in all aspects of performance and we know the ZCP differences are minor. Neither is noticeable on the street but here we are, people love or hate ZCP, they are either objective and willing to modify, or just prefer the best starting point that BMW created.
All else being identically equal, the slicktop non-ZCP will be faster accelerating than a ZCP with a sunroof (or a ZCP w/o a sunroof). The 359M wheels are heavier plus the sunroof weight -- simple physics on this comparison.
EDIT: Note that although it will be faster, the difference will be very small (obviously).
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      09-04-2018, 01:23 PM   #41
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^ For sure, since the ZCP does nothing for straight line performance. Even in the turns, though, 40 lbs from the roof would be comparable to a 1/2'' drop, I'd expect. Basically it makes sense that those who care about things like ZCP will also care about a slicktop.

Most buyers won't care about ZCP either, but that doesn't mean they're cheaper.
Supply and demand is all relative. Yes most buyers wont care or will like a sunroof. But if that's 80% of the buyers and 90% of the cars have a sunroof, that would have positive pricing effects on the slicktops. Yes "only" 20% of buyers care about that, but they're fighting over only 10% of the cars. I am making up the numbers but you'll all get my point. It's like LSB now on the E46. Not many people want LSB, but enough do and there are few enough of them that they are among the most expensive now.
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      09-04-2018, 01:40 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyatth View Post
^ For sure, since the ZCP does nothing for straight line performance. Even in the turns, though, 40 lbs from the roof would be comparable to a 1/2'' drop, I'd expect. Basically it makes sense that those who care about things like ZCP will also care about a slicktop.

Most buyers won't care about ZCP either, but that doesn't mean they're cheaper.
Supply and demand is all relative. Yes most buyers wont care or will like a sunroof. But if that's 80% of the buyers and 90% of the cars have a sunroof, that would have positive pricing effects on the slicktops. Yes "only" 20% of buyers care about that, but they're fighting over only 10% of the cars. I am making up the numbers but you'll all get my point. It's like LSB now on the E46. Not many people want LSB, but enough do and there are few enough of them that they are among the most expensive now.
Exactly. I would bet the numbers are stronger than your example with respect to a slicktop E90, especially as time goes by. There are very few examples available in the total scheme of things. With only 5867 E90 M3s imported and 1453 of those being slicktops, it's a very, very small market of potentially available cars at any given time.

If you narrow it down to LCI, that's only 952 slicktops to choose from. Narrow it further to 2011 slicktops, etc, etc.

If one is in the market for a low mileage 2011 slicktop, it doesn't take too many potential buyers to create a strong bid for such cars given how few cars are available.
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      09-04-2018, 02:05 PM   #43
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True that, and the nerdier the enthusiast, the less they care about objective differences or ordinary value propositions (the sunroof car may be 99.99% of the slicktop car, but they are not willing to pay 99.99% of the price for it). They want what they want and they will pay for it, a lot like the ZCP submarket actually.
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      09-10-2018, 06:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_130i_oz View Post
Would you buy a mint e90 m3 in alpine white without a sunroof? I think BMWs look a bit odd without a sunroof, unless it has a carbon roof.

Thoughts?

Thanks
I looked long and hard to find my e90 without a sunroof. Why would I want all of that extra weight on top of the car? Not only that, but it's an additional source of water leaks AND it takes a bit more headroom (for those of us who are taller, it makes it even that much more difficult to get into the car with a helmet-I just barely clear the roof in the lowest seat position as it is without having to almost recline).

Sure, who WANTS a sunroof???
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