'Aztlan': The End Of America

[NFS]

Originally Posted by CMD

ska and my other fellow E90 enthusiasts and friends:

If you haven't lived here, in Southern California particularly, over the last, say, 20 to 30 years, then you cannot possibly understand the gravity of the Illegal Immigration situation.

Southern California is Illegal Immigration GROUND ZERO.

I'm really an open minded person. I'm not a bad guy. I'm not a racist or a bigot. I'm just someone who loves his country and doesn't want to see it going down the shitter.

Illegal Immigration has had a devastating negative effect here. And again, unless you've lived here and experienced it over the years, it's understandably difficult to comprehend. You can, of course, have an opinion and your own point of view, I'm not saying you can't have those. But you can't speak from the "experience."

This is not to say Illegal Immigrants are "bad" people, I've never stated that. My opinion is they are criminals simply by their presence here and they are stealing from us in many ways. For example from our hospitals and schools. Do many of them work hard? Yes. Do many of them support taking over the American Southwest by having huge families? Absolutely.

I'm not posting this stuff to make enemies, only to stir thought. I know I have supporters as well as detractors here, and yes, I'm passionate about the topic. Nonetheless, the purpose of my posting is for discussion, not to piss people off. And I am posting in the "Off Topic" area, after all.

Cheers!

Are you sure 30 years residence is long enough to understand this issue?

Does it need to be in a particular street or just the general area

Seriously though, I do accept that I don't have your experience of this issue and I am intrigued to learn more.

However, I also think that your original sig made you appear to be a 'racist and a bigot', which is clearly not what you intended.

My question again would be why is this such a major issue for you and what would you do to solve the 'problem'?

Finally - have you read a book called 'the tortilla curtain' - if you have I would be really interested to hear what you thought of it.

[larryn]

I blame NAFTA. The US (begrudgingly) passed the agreement to help our neighbors mainly to the south. The intent was that we'd spread teh wealth, and build up the standards of living, minimum wages, and allow businesses here to build annexes where they have provide jobs and get cheaper labor.

With Mexico as corrupt as it was, it grew many times more corrupt with the influx of large amounts of additional cash. People were getting jobs still, and wages, as well as "the standard of living" increased. However, these people were used to making due with less. Now that they started making more money, along came Walmart, MacDonalds, Ikea, etc.. the gamut ran wild. Poverty, feuled by the higher standard of living, increased, and big business made even more money. The gap between the haves and have-nots widened further. All the while the government trolled for any way to make a few mil on the side.

I blame the Mexican government for not helping their own people. They have/had the money to make their country a better place for their own people to live. They choose not to, for whatever selfish, pocket-lining reasons they have.

Sure, it's easy to both point a finger at your richer neighbor, and want to protest allowing these illegals to become citizens. The fact of the matter is, they should be having these protests in their own country, asking why aren't they being served there by their elected officials. There's money to go around, develop the country, become an even larger world player, but it's easier for the government to keep on with their corrupt ways, and lend argument to the rich neighbor to the north battle. It has served them well in the past, and continues to do so.

I, for one, am all for legal immigrants, most of came here as a result of legal immigration (as did everybody elsewhere in the world, if you go back far enough, except those direct decendant of amoebas). However, illegal immigration has got to stop, if only for the fact that it is illegal. What good are laws if they can be ignored? There is a reason why countries have them.. because it does lend to the greater good and wellbeing of their country. I say let the poeple vote to say what they want. It's only our country.

Sorry for the rant. I just saw and read this thread for the first time today.

Originally Posted by lni

I blame NAFTA. The US (begrudgingly) passed the agreement to help our neighbors mainly to the south. The intent was that we'd spread teh wealth, and build up the standards of living, minimum wages, and allow businesses here to build annexes where they have provide jobs and get cheaper labor.

With Mexico as corrupt as it was, it grew many times more corrupt with the influx of large amounts of additional cash. People were getting jobs still, and wages, as well as "the standard of living" increased. However, these people were used to making due with less. Now that they started making more money, along came Walmart, MacDonalds, Ikea, etc.. the gamut ran wild. Poverty, feuled by the higher standard of living, increased, and big business made even more money. The gap between the haves and have-nots widened further. All the while the government trolled for any way to make a few mil on the side.

I blame the Mexican government for not helping their own people. They have/had the money to make their country a better place for their own people to live. They choose not to, for whatever selfish, pocket-lining reasons they have.

Sure, it's easy to both point a finger at your richer neighbor, and want to protest allowing these illegals to become citizens. The fact of the matter is, they should be having these protests in their own country, asking why aren't they being served there by their elected officials. There's money to go around, develop the country, become an even larger world player, but it's easier for the government to keep on with their corrupt ways, and lend argument to the rich neighbor to the north battle. It has served them well in the past, and continues to do so.

I, for one, am all for legal immigrants, most of came here as a result of legal immigration (as did everybody elsewhere in the world, if you go back far enough, except those direct decendant of amoebas). However, illegal immigration has got to stop, if only for the fact that it is illegal. What good are laws if they can be ignored? There is a reason why countries have them.. because it does lend to the greater good and wellbeing of their country. I say let the poeple vote to say what they want. It's only our country.

Sorry for the rant. I just saw and read this thread for the first time today.

Ini, well said. Looks like I have at least one person here who sees things the way I do.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

Are you sure 30 years residence is long enough to understand this issue?

It would certainly help.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

Does it need to be in a particular street or just the general area

You need to rent a room in my house, specifically, in order to understand.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

Seriously though, I do accept that I don't have your experience of this issue and I am intrigued to learn more.

You can learn a lot if you would read the links that member uofmtiger has posted above. That would be a good start.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

However, I also think that your original sig made you appear to be a 'racist and a bigot', which is clearly not what you intended.

There's no doubt it did, you are correct.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

My question again would be why is this such a major issue for you and what would you do to solve the 'problem'?

It's a major issue for me because I live here and am being effected by the tremendous negative impact illegal immigrants have on my state and my country. Read member Ini's post just below, we see eye to eye on the issue.

The FIRST thing I would do to start solving the problem would be to immediately close the borders and control entry into the country.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

Finally - have you read a book called 'the tortilla curtain' - if you have I would be really interested to hear what you thought of it.

No, I have not read that book. I've made a note of it and maybe I'll check it out. Have you read, In Mortal Danger by Tom Tancredo? I would also be interested to hear what you thought of it.

I'll make you a deal, you read my referral, and I'll read yours. Let me know.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by CMD

The FIRST thing I would do to start solving the problem would be to immediately close the borders and control entry into the country.

No, I have not read that book. I've made a note of it and maybe I'll check it out. Have you read, In Mortal Danger by Tom Tancredo? I would also be interested to hear what you thought of it.

I'll make you a deal, you read my referral, and I'll read yours. Let me know.

CMD - first off - I am pleased you recognised the impression created by your original sig - that's the main reason why I posted my reponses.

So what do you mean by 'close the borders' do you mean no freedom of movement into and out of America?

And as to controlling entry into the country ..... why does this not happen currently ?

I think your book swap suggestion is a fair one and I will look out for the book you referenced, but ...I think it will be difficult to find in this country and (having read the reviews) I have a sneaking feeling I may not warm to the author.

The Tortilla Curtain on the other hand I read for entertainment - it's effectively a satire - and it offers no answers ... but it provokes thought:

http://www.readinggroupguides.com/gu...la_curtain.asp

What I took from this book .... and this is the essense of my position .... is that no matter how badly you might feel the illegal immigrant situation is damaging your country .... you are much more fortunate than the illegal immigrants themselves. In short - count yourself lucky to be born into a country where you have opportunity.

On a similar level - I wonder if you have read 'the grapes of wrath'?

I'd feel pretty relaxed about a discussion regarding police methods etc to tackle illegal immigration and those who profit from it.

But I'm pretty incensed by a discussion about how awful illegal immigrants are and how they are personally to blame for the America's problems.

I hope you see the distinction - to me it is not the immigrants themselves who are causing the problem - their actions are understandable and to an extent excuseable. The problem is caused by:

1. The people in charge of undeveloped countries who squander their resources
2. The developed world which does little to really help the undeveloped world
3. Those people in countries like the USA who profit from illegal immigrants by:

a. Taking money off them to smuggle them into the country and supply papers
b. Getting them to work for pittance to avoid paying tax or proper wages

4. The authorities when the fail to police the borders adequately

The trouble with these issues is that they are bandwagons for racists and bigots - reference our own BNP.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

CMD - first off - I am pleased you recognised the impression created by your original sig - that's the main reason why I posted my reponses.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

So what do you mean by 'close the borders' do you mean no freedom of movement into and out of America?

I mean close the borders and only allow documented, legal residents in and out.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

And as to controlling entry into the country ..... why does this not happen currently ?

The majority of our politicians in charge, all the way up to President Bush, are "for sale" and do what Big Business, for just one good example, Walmart, wants.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I think your book swap suggestion is a fair one and I will look out for the book you referenced, but ...I think it will be difficult to find in this country and (having read the reviews) I have a sneaking feeling I may not warm to the author.

Why have you already speculated that you may not "warm to the author" >>Tom Tancredo<<?

Originally Posted by needforspeed

The Tortilla Curtain on the other hand I read for entertainment - it's effectively a satire - and it offers no answers ... but it provokes thought:

http://www.readinggroupguides.com/gu...la_curtain.asp

The Illegal Immigration problem here in America has progressed way beyond anything I woud describe as "entertainment."

Originally Posted by needforspeed

What I took from this book .... and this is the essense of my position .... is that no matter how badly you might feel the illegal immigrant situation is damaging your country .... you are much more fortunate than the illegal immigrants themselves. In short - count yourself lucky to be born into a country where you have opportunity.

So what your position is, because we are so fortunate to be Americans we should abandon our soverienty, open our borders and allow any and all to come on in? How long do you think it would take, under those circumstances, to turn the United States into a third world country?

Originally Posted by needforspeed

On a similar level - I wonder if you have read 'the grapes of wrath'?

I read it in high school.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I'd feel pretty relaxed about a discussion regarding police methods etc to tackle illegal immigration and those who profit from it.

But I'm pretty incensed by a discussion about how awful illegal immigrants are and how they are personally to blame for the America's problems.

They are certainly not the only problem America has today. However, they are directly responsible for many problems we have. Please read the attachements below.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I hope you see the distinction - to me it is not the immigrants themselves who are causing the problem - their actions are understandable and to an extent excuseable. The problem is caused by:

Originally Posted by needforspeed

1. The people in charge of undeveloped countries who squander their resources

I agree, Mexico is corrupt from top to bottom. But this is America's problem?

Originally Posted by needforspeed

2. The developed world which does little to really help the undeveloped world

True.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

3. Those people in countries like the USA who profit from illegal immigrants by:

Originally Posted by needforspeed

a. Taking money off them to smuggle them into the country and supply papers

Mexicans do this, rarely, if ever, do U.S. citizens traffic in Illegals.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

b. Getting them to work for pittance to avoid paying tax or proper wages

Big Business is responsible for this and I agree, this is wrong.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

4. The authorities when the fail to police the borders adequately

I agree. This lack of action is treasonous, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

The trouble with these issues is that they are bandwagons for racists and bigots - reference our own BNP.

Probably true to a small degree.


needforspeed,

I've attached some required reading for you, to get you up to speed. (No pun intended).

Please read and then comment, if you would.

[MrSilver]

Originally Posted by Luongo

Pilgrims were the original illegal immigrants of the 1600's, and they stole real estate properties of the native Americans.

At least the illegal immigrants of the 2000's are not stealing our properties.

Don't tell me they are stealing our jobs. Without them doing the type of work they do for near minimum wages, this country wouldn't operate properly.

QFT.

I'm not worried about the people that are here that are working illegally. I'm worried about the people that we born here that aren't willing to work and just collect a check from the Gov't.

[Oz]

I think the government should be blamed rather than blaming bunch of illegal immigrants. Is is the US government that needs to take action and tighten their borders and laws. I have heard of many things from illegal immigrants where simply a bride was enough to enter the country with the help of a local mafia.
I don't think we should hate bunch of illegal immigrants who came to this country to make a living for themselves. I also don't want illegal immigrants that comes into this country and cause trouble but they are not the only ones responsible for the violence in this country. Many illegal immigrants that I see here are people who needs to make a living so they can support themselves and their families back their home country. I know that there is a problem of illegal immigrants taking advantage of education and health system in this country but I also see MANY people here in NYC that are on welfare and don't even care about finding a job. Also, I see many of them doing jobs that none of the US Citizens actually want to do such as washing dishes, delivering food,etc.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by CMD

So what your position is, because we are so fortunate to be Americans we should abandon our soverienty, open our borders and allow any and all to come on in? How long do you think it would take, under those circumstances, to turn the United States into a third world country?

America can and should police it's borders to prevent people entering illegally. I have never suggested otherwise.

My basic point though is that you should not blame illegal immigrants for wanting a better life. They are the poor and exploited - they do not create the problem.

Blame the corrupt people who exploit them and the incompetent people who cannot control immigration.

I asked about the grapes of wrath because it is a novel about the desperation of those who have nothing. I think there are many parallels between this and the plight of illegal immigrants.

The book I mentioned was something I read for the pleasure of reading and I think it makes the point I am trying to make in a far more eloquent way than I will ever manage.

Since this issue is such a major concern for you I do hope you will read it.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by CMD

needforspeed,

I've attached some required reading for you, to get you up to speed. (No pun intended).

Please read and then comment, if you would.

The medical journal essay saddens me from a humanitarian perspective.

For me it illustrates my point - that the illegals are the unfortunate ones. They are a drain on the health service because they suffer from diseases that Americans don't get any more - because you have a better standard of living.

The 'anchor babies' point is interesting. Are they any less of a citizen than you?

It also follows that illegal immigrants will be involved in crime - if legal opportunities are closed to them then their options are limited.

That is not to say they are all angels - I am sure that there are as many vicious criminals in the USA illegally as there are legally.

I would not consider the statistical document to be accurate. It has been produced by a pressure group and my feeling would be that it is deliberately targetted to rationalise their position and garner support.

Finally, if the article regarding failure to police immigration laws is true, then it is a nonsense. However, is there not an argument that, if the 'system' was struggling in the face of this the authorities would intervene. Hence the very fact that they have not suggests that the system can cope with the current situation?

I remain concerned about immigration pressure groups and their 'propaganda'.

I do not suggest that illegal immigration is right or acceptable. I just feel that you and I are priveliged beyond measure by accident of our birth. Our countries have a right to protect that privelidge and control immigration, but we also have a responsibility to respect those less fortunate than ourselves.

There but for the grace of god go I ............

Originally Posted by needforspeed

. . . My basic point though is that you should not blame illegal immigrants for wanting a better life. They are the poor and exploited - they do not create the problem.

So, if I'm poor and from a foreign country, I get a pass on obeying laws? Is that how it works in Canada, Austrailia, Japan, China or maybe in MEXICO? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Like I stated before, I blame both our corrupt government officials, including but not limited to President Bush as well as the law breakers themselves. I don't care how poor or exploited they are. If you would read the book, In Mortal Danger, by Tom Tancredo, you would more readily understand why I and the majority of Americans, by the way, feel the way I do about this subject. The fact is, that they are poor and exploited does not matter to us any more since the future of our nation is at risk.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I do not suggest that illegal immigration is right or acceptable. I just feel that you and I are priveliged beyond measure by accident of our birth. Our countries have a right to protect that privelidge and control immigration, but we also have a responsibility to respect those less fortunate than ourselves.

There but for the grace of god go I ............

I agree with you on this. I agree with you 100%

Warning, Not for the Faint of Heart!

A tactic used by Mexican women -- and this they plan to do before conception.

Once pregnant, in labor and crowning, they climb the nearest U.S. border fence, usually screaming in pain with the head of their unborn baby protruding from their vagina, and give birth in the dirt on the United States side of the fence.

Many do this repeatedly, as often as physically possible.

[larryn]

The Mexican government has the means to help the situation. However, they see it as easier to just fuel the fire, and sit back. Their own government abandoned them for their own laziness and bloated corruption, and the only reason the US government should be involved is because of the added strain of poverty and crime it bring with people outside of the law.

One less mouth to feed of their own people... It's freaking disgusting, IMO, that people are not standing up to the government that's really screwing them, and the government knowingly turning their backs to people who want to make a living. It's just geographically easier to see "the good life" right on the other side of the border, instead of at Mexico City.

Still though, illegally living in the US is wrong, and they do not belong here.

By ARTHUR H. ROTSTEIN, Associated Press Writer
3 hours ago

YUMA, Ariz. - A sport utility vehicle packed with suspected illegal immigrants overturned while the driver was trying to elude federal agents, killing nine people and injuring 12, officials said.

Five of the injured, including a pregnant woman, were hospitalized in critical condition in Yuma and Phoenix, most with head trauma.

Five people were pronounced dead along the road Monday while four others died at Yuma Regional Medical Center, according to the U.S. Border Patrol. Three men and six women died.

The Chevy Suburban was carrying 21 people _ all Mexican citizens _ when the driver tried to circumvent a checkpoint on a highway more than 30 miles north of Yuma, according to authorities.

With Border Patrol agents in pursuit, the driver attempted to make a U-turn and the SUV rolled over, Border Patrol spokesman Lloyd Frers said.

Yuma County Sheriff's Maj. Leon Wilmot said the vehicle was traveling faster than the posted speed limit of 50 mph.

The vehicle had swerved to avoid a spike strip put out by Border Patrol agents, Wilmot said.

The Yuma County Sheriff's Office was investigating the crash, while Immigration and Customs Enforcement was investigating immigration-related aspects.

Scores of illegal immigrants die each year while crossing the Mexican border into Arizona, many in car crashes. Smugglers often flee from authorities at high speeds or overload vehicles, which makes them difficult to control.

Nationwide, at least 291 illegal immigrants have died during border crossing attempts from Oct. 1 through Sunday, Border Patrol spokesman Gustavo Soto said. That includes 75 deaths due to heat exposure, 45 drownings, and 42 motor vehicle incidents.

The Yuma area, a sandy stretch of desert in southwestern Arizona, has become one of the nation's busiest immigrant-smuggling hotspots. President Bush visited the area in May as part of his push for a sweeping overhaul of immigration laws.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by CMD

Warning, Not for the Faint of Heart!

A tactic used by Mexican women -- and this they plan to do before conception.

Once pregnant, in labor and crowning, they climb the nearest U.S. border fence, usually screaming in pain with the head of their unborn baby protruding from their vagina, and give birth in the dirt on the United States side of the fence.

Many do this repeatedly, as often as physically possible.

What is your source for this information and how do you know that 'many do this repeatedly, as often as physically possible'?

This is sensationalist nonsense deliberately engendered to provoke an extreme reaction.

I can imagine that pregnant women may well have scaled the border fence to give birth in the USA and that some may have done so when in labour. However, I seriously doubt that it is physically possible to do so while 'crowning' with their 'unborn baby protruding from their vagina'. It would also be a stupid tactic since they would be highly likely to miss-time it and have their child in Mexico.

Even if this were true (and not just a sensationalised exaggeration) it just serves to demonstrate how desperate people are to gain American citizenship for their children and themselves.

The so-called 'problem' of anchor babies is brought about because of the legal situation in the USA. Fight to change it if you wish. Until the law is changed, babies of illegal immigrants will be able to claim citizenship.

You are obviously an intelligent individual - what do you hope to accomplish by posting this sort of thing?

I find the fact you posted this more sickening than the content.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by CMD

By ARTHUR H. ROTSTEIN, Associated Press Writer
3 hours ago

YUMA, Ariz. - A sport utility vehicle packed with suspected illegal immigrants overturned while the driver was trying to elude federal agents, killing nine people and injuring 12, officials said.

Five of the injured, including a pregnant woman, were hospitalized in critical condition in Yuma and Phoenix, most with head trauma.

Five people were pronounced dead along the road Monday while four others died at Yuma Regional Medical Center, according to the U.S. Border Patrol. Three men and six women died.

The Chevy Suburban was carrying 21 people _ all Mexican citizens _ when the driver tried to circumvent a checkpoint on a highway more than 30 miles north of Yuma, according to authorities.

With Border Patrol agents in pursuit, the driver attempted to make a U-turn and the SUV rolled over, Border Patrol spokesman Lloyd Frers said.

Yuma County Sheriff's Maj. Leon Wilmot said the vehicle was traveling faster than the posted speed limit of 50 mph.

The vehicle had swerved to avoid a spike strip put out by Border Patrol agents, Wilmot said.

The Yuma County Sheriff's Office was investigating the crash, while Immigration and Customs Enforcement was investigating immigration-related aspects.

Scores of illegal immigrants die each year while crossing the Mexican border into Arizona, many in car crashes. Smugglers often flee from authorities at high speeds or overload vehicles, which makes them difficult to control.

Nationwide, at least 291 illegal immigrants have died during border crossing attempts from Oct. 1 through Sunday, Border Patrol spokesman Gustavo Soto said. That includes 75 deaths due to heat exposure, 45 drownings, and 42 motor vehicle incidents.

The Yuma area, a sandy stretch of desert in southwestern Arizona, has become one of the nation's busiest immigrant-smuggling hotspots. President Bush visited the area in May as part of his push for a sweeping overhaul of immigration laws.

Again ... why post this stuff .... what are you trying to achieve ?

Just another sad story about people desperate enough to risk everything to have a little bit of the good fortune you seem to be so scared of losing.

Do you go looking for this stuff on the net ?

Originally Posted by needforspeed

Again ... why post this stuff .... what are you trying to achieve ?

Just another sad story about people desperate enough to risk everything to have a little bit of the good fortune you seem to be so scared of losing.

Do you go looking for this stuff on the net ?

You just don't get it, do you? This stuff goes, zzzoooomm!, right over your head. I refer myself back to the fact that you don't live here, therefore you're not likely to ever get it. Hey, it's not your fault, I don't hold it against you. Just let it go my friend, it doesn't have anything to do with you anyway. Let, it, go . . . .

Originally Posted by needforspeed

What is your source for this information and how do you know that 'many do this repeatedly, as often as physically possible?

First, you've criticised me in below a below post by asking me "Do you go looking for this stuff on the net?"

I'll do just that and give you my source as well as the entire article. Would you like me to do this, or will I just get criticised again?

My friend, this is all VERY MUCH PUBLIC INFORMATION that can be found so very easily with a simple Google word search. None of this is either uncommon or secret, it happens all day every day here in the South West. Check it out.

[KennyVendetta]

I wish this thread would die

[NFS]

Originally Posted by CMD

You just don't get it, do you? This stuff goes, zzzoooomm!, right over your head. I refer myself back to the fact that you don't live here, therefore you're not likely to ever get it. Hey, it's not your fault, I don't hold it against you. Just let it go my friend, it doesn't have anything to do with you anyway. Let, it, go . . . .

You are right - I don't get it - and I don't want to.

I have no idea why you keep posting about illegal immigrants. There are plenty of other more productive things you could be doing with your time and plenty of more appropriate topics for this forum.

If you can 'let it go' and stop posting this stuff ... then I would be absolutely delighted to do the same

Originally Posted by CMD

First, you've criticised me in below a below post by asking me "Do you go looking for this stuff on the net?"

I'll do just that and give you my source as well as the entire article. Would you like me to do this, or will I just get criticised again?

My friend, this is all VERY MUCH PUBLIC INFORMATION that can be found so very easily with a simple Google word search. None of this is either uncommon or secret, it happens all day every day here in the South West. Check it out.

Well it does seem that you are searching out stories about illegal immigrants to post on the forum .... why ?

As to the 'pregnant woman climbs fence whilst actually giving birth' story - I googled it before replying - I would not find a single reference to this actually happening - and yet you suggest this happens all them time and that they 'repeat it as often as physically possible'. Why would they repeat it ... if their first baby is born in the USA - why do it again? It makes no sense

Originally Posted by KennyVendetta

I wish this thread would die

I entirely agree - it's starting to really hack me off.

Yes!



:rocks: