BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
View Poll Results: Should the US force critical supplies sold in America, fully made in America!
Yes, We can not depend on China for our supplies and security 22 68.75%
No, that's protectionism 10 31.25%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-26-2020, 11:25 AM   #23
ASAP
Stargazing
ASAP's Avatar
No_Country
3034
Rep
4,573
Posts

Drives: '20 M2 Comp HS
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: 305

iTrader: (0)

Yes... but um this is America... no one learned anything from the Economic Crash 10 years ago... in 3 months everyone will forget any of this happened, we will be back to short term quarterly earnings reports and will still have a shortage of ventilators...

people have a super short memory in this country
Appreciate 1
minn196908.50

      03-26-2020, 11:27 AM   #24
anglo
Libertarian
anglo's Avatar
United_States
56068
Rep
3,907
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by backhill View Post
Being in health care supply chain, I would say it would be a terrible idea. The whole game right now is production capacity. We don't have enough capacity globally, let alone regionally, to keep up with demand right now. The entire supply chain has been flipped on it's head and limiting production and supply to one region would be catastrophic to those in need.
It's not that complicated!
We're talking long term, not right now, so we dont have a repeat of what happened where China stops exports of much needed supplies to fight a deadly flu in the US.

China's military buildup, actions show we're on a collusion course with them. Depending on China to produce most of our medical supplies is foolish!
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 11:33 AM   #25
2000cs
Captain
1401
Rep
798
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Gotta love it how some members here are arguing it's fascism if you force US companies not to have critical supplies, medicines produced by countries like Iran, China, Cuba, Venezuela...
I may have misunderstood you, Anglo, but I thought your question was whether the US government should force companies that make critical supplies to make them in the USA. That I think is tantamount to fascism.

If your question is, instead, whether the government should force companies that make critical supplies to have them on hand in sufficient quantities in the USA, or to make them in many geographies, I am still concerned about the ďforceĒ part. Government can impose those rules on government procurement, but outside of the FCPA and trade restrictions (eg., Cuba), canít and shouldnít force companies.

The manufacturing issue is one of diversification. If the virus started in Europe and spread to the US from there, Chinese production wouldnít be an issue. European production of critical items might be. Since we canít know in advance which countries will have problems (virus, politics, catastrophic storms, etc), it makes sense for US businesses to diversify their sources across multiple geographies and countries. Iíll bet this shows up in their risk management and in the relative stock values of competitors who can respond (3M) and those who canít.

I would expect the inventory question to be resolved by litigation. If I go to the hospital with really anything now and they donít have adequate PPE, leading to my contracting another illness or COVID-19, you can be pretty sure my heirs will sue. There have been plenty of pandemic drills where this issue was identified (PPE definitely, maybe even ventilators) but the health care industry chose not to stock surge levels of critical supplies. So IMO there would be pretty clear liability there. And a couple of those lawsuits will change the inventory practices pretty quickly.

So, is there a problem this virus is exposing? Yes, likely several. Is a government dictate about production and inventory the best answer? Unlikely.
Appreciate 4
minn196908.50
Run Silent13727.00
MKSixer23089.50

      03-26-2020, 11:34 AM   #26
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
6909
Rep
7,374
Posts

Drives: 19 F150, 20 GLI, 19 ZLE, 212S
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Gotta love it how some members here are arguing it's fascism if you force US companies not to have critical supplies, medicines produced by countries like Iran, China, Cuba, Venezuela...
This goes to show you really don't have really any concrete beliefs or in a political system. So you don't even know how to argue and it shows.

No one is saying it is a good idea that all of these critical supplies have been outsourced. Most (me included) are saying it is truly a terrible idea/extremely anti-american to force companies to make them. There are probably much better ways of going about manufacturing them that don't go against the ideals of what the US is really about.

Are you really a commercial pilot?
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 11:34 AM   #27
anglo
Libertarian
anglo's Avatar
United_States
56068
Rep
3,907
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
the government forcing private entities to do anything is fascism...

jesus christ dude, you are giving republicans a bad name
Do you realize US companies are not allowed to do business with Iran, North Korea...right?

I guess adding China to that list makes it fascism!
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 11:35 AM   #28
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
6909
Rep
7,374
Posts

Drives: 19 F150, 20 GLI, 19 ZLE, 212S
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Yes... but um this is America... no one learned anything from the Economic Crash 10 years ago... in 3 months everyone will forget any of this happened, we will be back to short term quarterly earnings reports and will still have a shortage of ventilators...

people have a super short memory in this country
Also very true, I still don't think government forcing companies to do something (unless on the government dole via agreement from the company as I said earlier) is a very good solution.
Appreciate 1
Run Silent13727.00

      03-26-2020, 11:37 AM   #29
2000cs
Captain
1401
Rep
798
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Do you realize US companies are not allowed to do business with Iran, North Korea...right?

I guess adding China to that list makes it fascism!
Adding China to that list does not make it fascism (although I would argue that is unwise).

Mandating that US companies produce in the USA is fascism.

See the difference?
Appreciate 4
minn196908.50
Run Silent13727.00

      03-26-2020, 11:42 AM   #30
anglo
Libertarian
anglo's Avatar
United_States
56068
Rep
3,907
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
I may have misunderstood you, Anglo, but I thought your question was whether the US government should force companies that make critical supplies to make them in the USA. That I think is tantamount to fascism.

If your question is, instead, whether the government should force companies that make critical supplies to have them on hand in sufficient quantities in the USA, or to make them in many geographies, I am still concerned about the ďforceĒ part. Government can impose those rules on government procurement, but outside of the FCPA and trade restrictions (eg., Cuba), canít and shouldnít force companies.

The manufacturing issue is one of diversification. If the virus started in Europe and spread to the US from there, Chinese production wouldnít be an issue. European production of critical items might be. Since we canít know in advance which countries will have problems (virus, politics, catastrophic storms, etc), it makes sense for US businesses to diversify their sources across multiple geographies and countries. Iíll bet this shows up in their risk management and in the relative stock values of competitors who can respond (3M) and those who canít.

I would expect the inventory question to be resolved by litigation. If I go to the hospital with really anything now and they donít have adequate PPE, leading to my contracting another illness or COVID-19, you can be pretty sure my heirs will sue. There have been plenty of pandemic drills where this issue was identified (PPE definitely, maybe even ventilators) but the health care industry chose not to stock surge levels of critical supplies. So IMO there would be pretty clear liability there. And a couple of those lawsuits will change the inventory practices pretty quickly.

So, is there a problem this virus is exposing? Yes, likely several. Is a government dictate about production and inventory the best answer? Unlikely.
I really like your attitude, you're trying to come up with solutions, that's the American spirit!

I think for security reasons some stuff need to be made here also, let's say if all your medical supplies were made in Italy and South Korea and both friendly countries Industries are hard hit and then what?
Appreciate 1
2000cs1400.50

      03-26-2020, 11:51 AM   #31
backhill
Second Lieutenant
62
Rep
236
Posts

Drives: 2015 Sierra HD
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
It's not that complicated!
We're talking long term, not right now, so we dont have a repeat of what happened where China stops exports of much needed supplies to fight a deadly flu in the US.

China's military buildup, actions show we're on a collusion course with them. Depending on China to produce most of our medical supplies is foolish!
You'd be surprised how complicated it can become and the orchestration that needs to happen. My comment still stands in that would shouldn't rely on anything exclusively within the states. This is a global economy with global leverage and scale. Long term (for any industry), I'd prefer the lowest cost award to multiple sources globally to hedge and manage supply should one chain be disrupted.

Personally, I'd also prefer this route as my health insurance and premiums will be kept lower because the cost of materials to perform the procedure is lower.
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 11:55 AM   #32
hooligan_COLD
Space Shuttle Door Gunner
hooligan_COLD's Avatar
5192
Rep
4,369
Posts

Drives: '15 X1 35i M Sport
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Back in the Mitten

iTrader: (0)

Hmmm, interesting. I see a lot of self-identifying "conservatives" on here that don't seem to like free markets much.

I voted no.
Appreciate 5
minn196908.50
Run Silent13727.00
MKSixer23089.50

      03-26-2020, 11:59 AM   #33
anglo
Libertarian
anglo's Avatar
United_States
56068
Rep
3,907
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by backhill View Post
You'd be surprised how complicated it can become and the orchestration that needs to happen. My comment still stands in that would shouldn't rely on anything exclusively within the states. This is a global economy with global leverage and scale. Long term (for any industry), I'd prefer the lowest cost award to multiple sources globally to hedge and manage supply should one chain be disrupted.

Personally, I'd also prefer this route as my health insurance and premiums will be kept lower because the cost of materials to perform the procedure is lower.
We already have that, look at the high cost of medicines in this country. Same meds cost a fraction of the price in countries like Mexico, China...
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 12:01 PM   #34
backhill
Second Lieutenant
62
Rep
236
Posts

Drives: 2015 Sierra HD
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
We already have that, look at the high price of medicines in this country. Same meds cost a fraction of the price in countries like Mexico, China...
I know. Relying solely on US production/provision would increase the cost long term with increased short term risks if the supply chain is disrupted.

Last edited by backhill; 03-26-2020 at 12:08 PM..
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 12:12 PM   #35
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
6909
Rep
7,374
Posts

Drives: 19 F150, 20 GLI, 19 ZLE, 212S
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Hmmm, interesting. I see a lot of self-identifying "conservatives" on here that don't seem to like free markets much.

I voted no.
Just like in 08/09 when a lot of the same group wanted their losses covered and a lifeline for their businesses etc to survive. People turn to socialistic ways pretty quick in times like those and these.
Appreciate 2
MKSixer23089.50

      03-26-2020, 12:13 PM   #36
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2928
Rep
4,375
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Also very true, I still don't think government forcing companies to do something (unless on the government dole via agreement from the company as I said earlier) is a very good solution.
Historically Public companies aka Corperation was highly regulated and require to submit documentation of how they are serving the citizen of this nation for it good, money was not one of the criteria. I'm perfectly fine with private companies doing whatever they can to make themselves competitive but public companies should be heavily regulated and tax as they lack any morality or conscience since it a collective of individual that only uniting factor is money.
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 12:19 PM   #37
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
6909
Rep
7,374
Posts

Drives: 19 F150, 20 GLI, 19 ZLE, 212S
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Historically Public companies aka Corperation was highly regulated and require to submit documentation of how they are serving the citizen of this nation for it good, money was not one of the criteria. I'm perfectly fine with private companies doing whatever they can to make themselves competitive but public companies should be heavily regulated and tax as they lack any morality or conscience since it a collective of individual that only uniting factor is money.
I'm unsure as what to say to a lot of this, except for it seems some of you have been voting/supporting the wrong people. Because they apparently are against your interests/beliefs in this arena.

Public and private corporations have amassed way too much power in the past few decades with not a lot of checks to said power IMO. Obama tried a little bit, but even he didn't try that hard as he was constrained by the great recession and had to play ball to get the recovery going.
Appreciate 1
      03-26-2020, 12:25 PM   #38
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2928
Rep
4,375
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm unsure as what to say to a lot of this, except for it seems some of you have been voting/supporting the wrong people. Because they apparently are against your interests/beliefs in this arena.

Public and private corporations have amassed way too much power in the past few decades with not a lot of checks to said power IMO. Obama tried a little bit, but even he didn't try that hard as he was constrained by the great recession and had to play ball to get the recovery going.
I disagree with you on this Private companies have limited resources which prevent them from getting too large as they become more inefficient and expansion becomes more risky

Public entites on the other hand has the illusion of near unlimited resources because of the too big to fail mentality that occurs when you let them run amok for too long of a period. Just research all the entites that are over leverage right now, most of them are public companies. The private companies that are suffering right now is not due to over leveraging it due to action by the government which is also a public entity.

Tik does a good overview on the subject



Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 12:28 PM   #39
Run Silent
Run Deep
Run Silent's Avatar
United_States
13727
Rep
3,799
Posts

Drives: Back and Forth To Work
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: The Mountains

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Do you realize US companies are not allowed to do business with Iran, North Korea...right?

I guess adding China to that list makes it fascism!
Anglo, you're title under your screen name should be revoked immediately - so sad. In response to your comment I quoted above? I do realize that, and I think it is wrong. Sanctions massively disproportionately impact the innocent citizens of a country as compared to the ruling class.

I am married to someone who lived for decades under US Sanctions and saw it negatively impact the daily lives of citizens of the country while the ruling class continued to get wealthy and not really have their lives impacted. Anytime the government of a country forces companies to do anything at all it is generally a bad thing.

As a professed libertarian, how you don't see this is baffling to me. One of my best friends is Chinese and lives and works in Shanghai. She is a senior executive for the Chinese branch of an American beverage company. You're proposal would cause her to lose her job, along with millions more.

How does that make anything better?
__________________
Don't sweat petty things....or pet sweaty things.
Appreciate 2
minn196908.50
MKSixer23089.50

      03-26-2020, 12:41 PM   #40
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
6909
Rep
7,374
Posts

Drives: 19 F150, 20 GLI, 19 ZLE, 212S
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
I disagree with you on this Private companies have limited resources which prevent them from getting too large as they become more inefficient and expansion becomes more risky

Public entites on the other hand has the illusion of near unlimited resources because of the too big to fail mentality that occurs when you let them run amok for too long of a period. Just research all the entites that are over leverage right now, most of them are public companies. The private companies that are suffering right now is not due to over leveraging it due to action by the government which is also a public entity.

Tik does a good overview on the subject



Again, I'm unsure what exactly we are disagreeing on. I think corporations as a whole have too much power in general over our politics and compared to the average worker bee. But, I agree public corporations really do, especially the "too big to fail" ones as they will continually be saved when crisis happens over others. But, public is kind of a misnomer as in they have mostly private shareholders.

My point about bailouts was under what conditions they took that bailout. Making a deal with the devil type of thing. Basically if you choose to take taxpayer money than they be "forced" to do some things they don't want to do in order to receive that bailout money.
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 12:46 PM   #41
anglo
Libertarian
anglo's Avatar
United_States
56068
Rep
3,907
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Anglo, you're title under your screen name should be revoked immediately - so sad. In response to your comment I quoted above? I do realize that, and I think it is wrong. Sanctions massively disproportionately impact the innocent citizens of a country as compared to the ruling class.

I am married to someone who lived for decades under US Sanctions and saw it negatively impact the daily lives of citizens of the country while the ruling class continued to get wealthy and not really have their lives impacted. Anytime the government of a country forces companies to do anything at all it is generally a bad thing.

As a professed libertarian, how you don't see this is baffling to me. One of my best friends is Chinese and lives and works in Shanghai. She is a senior executive for the Chinese branch of an American beverage company. You're proposal would cause her to lose her job, along with millions more.

How does that make anything better?
The West lack critical supplies to fight the coronavirus because most of the stuff comes China!

Your solution, keep the status quo or your friend who works for an American beverage company will lose her job.

We're talking about only critical supplies like antibiotics, n95 masks etc.
Appreciate 1
vreihen162056.50

      03-26-2020, 12:51 PM   #42
Dagamus_NM
Dirka Dirka
1205
Rep
1,043
Posts

Drives: 14 Dinan 550i, 10 m3, 91 332iC
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Albuquerque NM

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I voted yes, but pushing back on "force". The Gov't should create a business environment that entices business to manufacture in the USA.
And how would we do that? Subsidies? Open government factories for strategic reserves of critical industries/products?

Tariffs raised prices and led to less reserves being stored. I guess if there were tariffs with subsidies to offset and requirements for stock levels by accrediting agencies maybe.

Lean, lean, lean has been the driver in healthcare the last 20 years. Looks like we got a little too lean.
Appreciate 2
minn196908.50
2000cs1400.50

      03-26-2020, 01:00 PM   #43
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2928
Rep
4,375
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Again, I'm unsure what exactly we are disagreeing on. I think corporations as a whole have too much power in general over our politics and compared to the average worker bee. But, I agree public corporations really do, especially the "too big to fail" ones as they will continually be saved when crisis happens over others. But, public is kind of a misnomer as in they have mostly private shareholders.

My point about bailouts was under what conditions they took that bailout. Making a deal with the devil type of thing. Basically if you choose to take taxpayer money than they be "forced" to do some things they don't want to do in order to receive that bailout money.
So is the government, what makes something public is when it doesn't have a single private owner. The moment it becomes a collective that has no family factor it a public entity.
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2020, 01:10 PM   #44
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
6909
Rep
7,374
Posts

Drives: 19 F150, 20 GLI, 19 ZLE, 212S
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
So is the government, what makes something public is when it doesn't have a single private owner. The moment it becomes a collective that has no family factor it a public entity.
Ok, I think I know what you are getting at now. We do disagree then.

I think of a government owned water treatment plant that is a truly publicly owned entity. I donít think a publicly traded company with private/non governmental shareholders is a truly public company in the way I think you are saying.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:33 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST