EDC and Servotronic stopped working

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

So been driving in sport mode for 9k miles? You better stop by a chiropractor while you're car is at the dealer!

Helmsman, from m5 e60 owners (same edc system) i found that if replacing EDC module it takes 8 hours to upload new EDC software. The dealer actually upgrades the car's iDrive/Progman software. Basically they're reprogramming the car to accept the new EDC module.

Found a couple of m5 instances of EDC failure but they got an EDC malfunction message on the dash and scan error codes :

005FF1 EDC: Wheel speed, front left
00600A EDC: Control unit, internal fault

[Rajmun340]

A same edc issue (no error, no malfunction message) in an m5 turned out to be a loom problem where the wires had worn out and shorted underside the rear of the car where the loom come out of metal subframe and makes a 90 degrees turn.

There are more cases of edc issue that had malfunctions messages displayed on idrive. In those case the steering angle sensor was the culprit in most cases even one case where the diagnosis said otherwise. Make sure to get all the error codes number from the dealer before he resets them. There seems to be different cases. One guy found the optical disc for the angle sensor had some kind of residue crystalized and after he cleaned it, the errors did not come back. But our case of no message points to a possible short or intermittent communication problem through the wires. But that is just supposition, hopefully the dealer will find the problem.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

So been driving in sport mode for 9k miles? You better stop by a chiropractor while you're car is at the dealer!

Helmsman any news ???

i have a thread in the main section.

[jcolley]

In the E6x, the EDC module communicates on PT-CAN and controls the dampers. The dampers are magnetorheological and the default, non-energized setting is the stiffest. As current is applied to the electrical coil inside the damper, the compression and rebound damping are reduced. So, in effect, the system "fails" in the heaviest damping setting.

The E9x EDC is almost identical in operation and communicates over PT-CAN as well.

On the E6x however, the servotronic electrohydraulic valve on the steering rack is controlled by the KGM (karrosserie (chassis) gateway module) whereas on the E9x it receives its control current directly from the DME.

This makes trying to connect the two failures on the E9x more complicated where as on the E6x, PT-CAN data faults would make a logical correlation (KGM is the PT-CAN gateway to the DME for E6x.)

OP, what are you scanning the car with if there are no faults?

As for replacing the EDC, reprogramming the whole car for that is silly. The EDC module technically can be replaced without programming at all as the VIN is stored in it, but has no effect on its operation. You would want to have it coded to your chassis however as there may be some differences in the settings from the donor if say it came from an E90 and you put it in an E92. You can however program it using WinKFP with AIF write enabled so it records the VIN properly.

I speak from the experience of having parted out about 25 S85 powered E6x cars and preprogram all modules before I ship them using a bench flashing arrangement with an ICOM and KGM module. The same can be done with a footwell module, OBD port and ICOM (or USB OBD) for E9x. Reprogramming the whole car is wasteful and a good indication the dealers don't know how to use expert mode in ISTA/P where you can deselect modules for programming avoiding the "whole car" routine.

[Helmsman]

Jcolley, interesting curiosa, I thought the EDC shocks simply was valve controlled. Learn something everyday.

Also for my understanding; A new EDC module (which I'm sure the dealer will suggest next week) doesn't have to be programmed for a ZCP, but will get updated from the DME based on VIN? (as I believe ZCP/non ZCP use the same HW module)?

I have the same non working-stiff-issue as Joe (and no codes from car nor Carly scanner), ZCP 27k miles car. Have a slot with the dealer next week and trying to understand as much as possible first. Correct, I have reason to not fully trust them. Had the complete car updated Spring 2014 and don't want any SW not needed touched.

Thanks!

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

Helmsman any news ???

i have a thread in the main section.

Hej Joe,

my PC crashed so been off a few days reloading, but no news (disasters always comes in crowds..).

So your dealer claimed no issues when not possible to read code??

Cheers

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by jcolley

In the E6x, the EDC module communicates on PT-CAN and controls the dampers. The dampers are magnetorheological and the default, non-energized setting is the stiffest. As current is applied to the electrical coil inside the damper, the compression and rebound damping are reduced. So, in effect, the system "fails" in the heaviest damping setting.

The E9x EDC is almost identical in operation and communicates over PT-CAN as well.

On the E6x however, the servotronic electrohydraulic valve on the steering rack is controlled by the KGM (karrosserie (chassis) gateway module) whereas on the E9x it receives its control current directly from the DME.

This makes trying to connect the two failures on the E9x more complicated where as on the E6x, PT-CAN data faults would make a logical correlation (KGM is the PT-CAN gateway to the DME for E6x.)

OP, what are you scanning the car with if there are no faults?

As for replacing the EDC, reprogramming the whole car for that is silly. The EDC module technically can be replaced without programming at all as the VIN is stored in it, but has no effect on its operation. You would want to have it coded to your chassis however as there may be some differences in the settings from the donor if say it came from an E90 and you put it in an E92. You can however program it using WinKFP with AIF write enabled so it records the VIN properly.

I speak from the experience of having parted out about 25 S85 powered E6x cars and preprogram all modules before I ship them using a bench flashing arrangement with an ICOM and KGM module. The same can be done with a footwell module, OBD port and ICOM (or USB OBD) for E9x. Reprogramming the whole car is wasteful and a good indication the dealers don't know how to use expert mode in ISTA/P where you can deselect modules for programming avoiding the "whole car" routine.

jcolley. the dealer tried to read error codes, but could not find one.
Isn't the steering angle sensor (SAS) data required by the DEM to adjust steering boost depending on car speed ? And I saw an edc wiring diagram that also showed "steering angle sender" going into the EDC module. Could this be the common link for both edc and servo modes not working ?
The problem is that a failing sensor usually give error codes and my car does not give any, but i am certain EDC and servo modes stopped working.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Jcolley, interesting curiosa, I thought the EDC shocks simply was valve controlled. Learn something everyday.

Also for my understanding; A new EDC module (which I'm sure the dealer will suggest next week) doesn't have to be programmed for a ZCP, but will get updated from the DME based on VIN? (as I believe ZCP/non ZCP use the same HW module)?

I have the same non working-stiff-issue as Joe (and no codes from car nor Carly scanner), ZCP 27k miles car. Have a slot with the dealer next week and trying to understand as much as possible first. Correct, I have reason to not fully trust them. Had the complete car updated Spring 2014 and don't want any SW not needed touched.

Thanks!

Now I have to go back and look to see if it's valving change or magnetorheological, thanks for that. I may actually cut open one of the leaking dampers I have and see for myself.

As for the difference between ZCP and non-ZCP, I can't say. I've looked a few of the .0pa files for EDC on the E60 to see the maps internally, but never for the E9x. I would imagine if anything is actually different, the ZUSB version for the ZCP would contain those differences.

Having poked around a bit in the DME as well since I started tuning the mss65 (extremely similar to mss60), I don't recall any maps related to EDC other than EDC mode preference for M-Mode, so I'm not sure how the DME would correlate to the EDC that ZCP status. I would lean towards ZCP being either a ZUSB (program) change on the EDC hardware, or perhaps even an option encoded by the FA (vehicle order or options list) and set by NCSExpert during coding defaults to the module.

To a dealer, this would all be transparent as ISTA/P just pulls the VIN and FA and automagically does its thing.

If it turns out ZCP is an option in EDC, then it may be possible to code the ZCP suspension settings to a non-ZCP car. We were able to do this with the M6 competition package M Dynamic Mode to non CP M6s and M5s.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Hej Joe,

my PC crashed so been off a few days reloading, but no news (disasters always comes in crowds..).

So your dealer claimed no issues when not possible to read code??

Cheers

I see.
What happened is there was another M3 ZCP at the dealer. We agreed to use it as a baseline comparison with my car, The foreman drove both cars and low and behold, the other m3 had the exact same problem but they first came to me trying to tell me "it is working" because no difference between cars. Then i rode with him in both cars and found all the modes were "dead" too. Then i expressed the fact that both cars must have the same issue. Without error code, I can understand how perplexing it must be for the foreman. Fortunately i found all those m5 threads with same issue and no error code, mailed that to foreman. No update yet. I know from my earlier experience with the car that the difference between modes leaves no margin for "subjective feel". The foreman however tried to put it in that angle until i realized that both cars had issue. Now i would like to find a local M3 with edc servo modes that works but no luck. Nobody from the forum emailed me.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by jcolley

Now I have to go back and look to see if it's valving change or magnetorheological, thanks for that. I may actually cut open one of the leaking dampers I have and see for myself.

As for the difference between ZCP and non-ZCP, I can't say. I've looked a few of the .0pa files for EDC on the E60 to see the maps internally, but never for the E9x. I would imagine if anything is actually different, the ZUSB version for the ZCP would contain those differences.

Having poked around a bit in the DME as well since I started tuning the mss65 (extremely similar to mss60), I don't recall any maps related to EDC other than EDC mode preference for M-Mode, so I'm not sure how the DME would correlate to the EDC that ZCP status. I would lean towards ZCP being either a ZUSB (program) change on the EDC hardware, or perhaps even an option encoded by the FA (vehicle order or options list) and set by NCSExpert during coding defaults to the module.

To a dealer, this would all be transparent as ISTA/P just pulls the VIN and FA and automagically does its thing.

If it turns out ZCP is an option in EDC, then it may be possible to code the ZCP suspension settings to a non-ZCP car. We were able to do this with the M6 competition package M Dynamic Mode to non CP M6s and M5s.

Yep, there are guys who have coded to ZCP with standard shocks/springs while others have changes the latters also for complete retrofit.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by jcolley

In the E6x, the EDC module communicates on PT-CAN ...

You seem to have a lot of experience with those modules. I was only repeating what i read in the m5board don't call me out for that. m5board seems filled with savvy DIY people.

Maybe you have a theory what could be the issue, without error codes it is a tough one.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

You seem to have a lot of experience with those modules. I was only repeating what i read in the m5board don't call me out for that. m5board seems filled with savvy DIY people.

Maybe you have a theory what could be the issue, without error codes it is a tough one.

Wasn't intended the sound that way if it did, just trying to offer assistance. It interesting you say that, it's a huge change in the last 10 years of the membership there. Up until about 4 years ago, no one would even change their own clutch in the SMG. Now many of us rebuild throttle actuators, repair steering angle sensors, change our own rod bearings, and work on the VANOS system. There are those there (as anywhere) who repeat things that have always read without doing any of their own thought into it. I'm probably guilty of that as well, but have gotten much deeper into the systems recently since I started my E61 S85 swap.


Your case tough, it does sound like a condition that should trigger an error code, not sure why it wouldn't.

In the E60 using INPA you can monitor component values live, such as servotronic current in the KGM module. I would think you can do the same in the mss60, although do not have one to test on.

You should also be able to query EDC damper current values individually in INPA. Do you have access to a good installation of it?

[BPMSport]

Steering effort is based on road speed only, not on steering angle.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Steering effort is based on road speed only, not on steering angle.

Mike, not sure what you're trying to get to, but sure and that would be true for any car ever made. That's beside the point. Comfort servo mode boosts the assistance to turn the wheel more than sport is the point.

FYI It's been established between the dealer and bmw engineers thats my servo modes don't work.

[Helmsman]

Joe, back from the dealer today (believe THE largest/most specialized bimmer dealer garage in the friggin country). As expected found no codes - suggested then nu issues - but "re- initiated" the module, didnt want to reprogram at this point. €200 later, no change.

This was a certified M tech and all the rest of it, never seen it before, no clue. Next step will be to issue a puma claim with BMW. Not sure what that means but assume direct support from Germany.

Quite annoying story this is...

[rantarM3]

Regarding EDC not working, have you guys tried listening to the servos mounted atop the dampers to see if they make a sound when changing EDC settings? I have not tried this myself and have no idea if the servo motors make an audible noise when operating but it might be worth a shot. If they do make a sound, maybe there's something broken between the servo motor and the gearing that turns the adjusters on the dampers (e.g., maybe the gear somehow got stripped). Just throwing this out there to try and help.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

Regarding EDC not working, have you guys tried listening to the servos mounted atop the dampers to see if they make a sound when changing EDC settings? I have not tried this myself and have no idea if the servo motors make an audible noise when operating but it might be worth a shot. If they do make a sound, maybe there's something broken between the servo motor and the gearing that turns the adjusters on the dampers (e.g., maybe the gear somehow got stripped). Just throwing this out there to try and help.

All advice is welcome. I did check the connectors but not been listening to any noise. Wasn't aware there is a servo per se, thought it was a "simple" solenoid pulling a valve to adjust fluid flow, no..?

Cheers

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

Mike, not sure what you're trying to get to, but sure and that would be true for any car ever made. That's beside the point. Comfort servo mode boosts the assistance to turn the wheel more than sport is the point.

FYI It's been established between the dealer and bmw engineers thats my servo modes don't work.

I'm not arguing with you - you asked a question, and I answered it:

"Isn't the steering angle sensor (SAS) data required by the DEM to adjust steering boost depending on car speed ?"

No, since the steering angle doesn't matter.

I'd also disagree that this is the case for every car made, this is speculating.

Good luck with getting it fixed.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I'm not arguing with you - you asked a question, and I answered it:

"Isn't the steering angle sensor (SAS) data required by the DEM to adjust steering boost depending on car speed ?"

No, since the steering angle doesn't matter.

I'd also disagree that this is the case for every car made, this is speculating.

Good luck with getting it fixed.

You are right that for servo assisted steering the steering angle doesn't matter, only the car speed. And yes, for every car ever made from simple physics the following is true independently of car equipment : "Steering effort is based on road speed only, not on steering angle". I don't think we disagree, just misunderstandings.

[Rajmun340]

Update. they ran a software test program for edc and servo and both passed. Then they reprogrammed the following :
JBE (junction box ?),
DME/DDE,
FRM (Foot well module),
CON controller,
CAS car access system (?)
EDC-K,

recalibrated steering angle sensor,
they saved DME/DDE and BO individual data and restored it after programming.
DSC module was not reprogrammed

I went for a testdrive and it did not fix anything.

They did not reset DME/DDE and BO individual data, said if he did the tool would extrapolate new values based on mileage on the shocks, it would not reset it to factory defaults and that could reduce the difference between edc modes after the problem is fixed.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

Update. they ran a software test program for edc and servo and both passed. Then they reprogrammed the following :
JBE (junction box ?),
DME/DDE,
FRM (Foot well module),
CON controller,
CAS car access system (?)
EDC-K,

recalibrated steering angle sensor,
they saved DME/DDE and BO individual data and restored it after programming.
DSC module was not reprogrammed

I went for a testdrive and it did not fix anything. Same.

They did not reset DME/DDE and BO individual data, said if he did the tool would extrapolate new values based on mileage on the shocks, it would not reset it to factory defaults and that could reduce the difference between edc modes after the problem is fixed.

Joe, by now the dealer recognise the issue, or just playing along to be customer friendy?

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Joe, by now the dealer recognize the issue, or just playing along to be customer friendy?

Helmsman, they are not trying to deny it openly but there is that concern. It's why i've tried to find another local owner who might be willing to bring his car just so they can ride it.
There is another m3 expected for service this morning. I just hope this is not a widespread undiagnosed problem.