Track build priorities

[slowdown_dan]

Hi guys, I'm a bimmer noob who has utilized the search function on this forum for a while now, but I was wondering if I could get some opinions on how I should plan my track build out on my 08 e92 M, 6MT.

I have a track weekend upcoming in Sebring and this will be my first. I've read countless times, just show up and have fun while you're learning. I intend to do that. So far I have just upgraded my fluid and pads (endless 650 and ds2500), and installed GAS monoballs and BW rubber engine mounts, but other than new street tires and some power bolt ons the chassis is stock. This is how I intend to track the car this summer.

Going forward I'm sure most guys would put camber plates near the top of the list and I can see that point completely. The issue is my car has 85k miles on it's EDC suspension (84k when I got it) and I don't DD the car. Initially I was thinking I would throw some swift spec r's and camber plates on, do the e36 bump stops, etc, and run it like that. However I recently got a good line on some new RT coilovers at a decent discount and thought it might be a bit of a waste to get OEM capable camber plates and swifts AND then pull all that out to eventually install the C/O when my skills improved. Do it once, do it right, and save some money in the long run mentality. This is just what I'm telling myself.

I also know that I will want to upgrade to track specific rubber because the street tires I have on there now (19" azenis fk510) won't love the S. Fla heat at the track and..well..they are street rubber. While I'm totally going to my first track weekend or two on my street setup this inquiry is totally for future build planning and what those with experience would suggest for a priority list.

Should I A) just go with OEM capable camber plates (and maybe swifts) and prioritize 18's and track tires (looking at the A052's vs NT01's if anyone has input on those) or B) focus on getting the C/O and appropriate camber plates, and run my stock wheel/tire setup till its fried (which might not take too long).

Thanks for any input.

[Kelse92]

Going forward I'm sure most guys would put camber plates near the top of the list and I can see that point completely. The issue is my car has 85k miles on it's EDC suspension (84k when I got it) and I don't DD the car. Initially I was thinking I would throw some swift spec r's and camber plates on, do the e36 bump stops, etc, and run it like that. However I recently got a good line on some new RT coilovers at a decent discount and thought it might be a bit of a waste to get OEM capable camber plates and swifts AND then pull all that out to eventually install the C/O when my skills improved. Do it once, do it right, and save some money in the long run mentality. This is just what I'm telling myself.

Definitely do it once. I would say if you're not quite ready to do full coilovers, just do a sway bar in the front. You can ultimately use that part later on with a set of coilovers too when you get them and it will help some in the meantime. EDC shocks are pretty good so run with them for awhile until you think you need them upgraded. You can get a decent amount of camber on the stock stuff to start out.

I also know that I will want to upgrade to track specific rubber because the street tires I have on there now (19" azenis fk510) won't love the S. Fla heat at the track and..well..they are street rubber. While I'm totally going to my first track weekend or two on my street setup this inquiry is totally for future build planning and what those with experience would suggest for a priority list.

Good call. I would prioritize some 200tw tires and 18x10.5 square wheel setup next. Many will say 18x10's are better but honestly, the 18x10.5 square setup I think is the better buy-once option and will open you up to many more tire options down the road.

Should I A) just go with OEM capable camber plates (and maybe swifts) and prioritize 18's and track tires (looking at the A052's vs NT01's if anyone has input on those) or B) focus on getting the C/O and appropriate camber plates, and run my stock wheel/tire setup till its fried (which might not take too long).

Overall, if it were me personally I would prioritize the wheels/tires first. RS4's would be my recommendation for starting out on 18's. They have good grip, good feedback, and wear extremely well. A052's wear pretty quick and you won't be able to get all the use out of them yet. Especially for their price tag. The Nt01 is a good one to step up to after first using the RS4's.
Get quick on that stock-ish setup and go from there.

[Chris_PDX]

1. Brakes first, always. You mentioned you just did fluids and pads so you're good to go for a few track days. These cars are heavy, fairly quick in a straight line, so as you get faster you'll start going through brake consumables like crazy.

2. Tires next. 18x10 or 10.5 squared is the best setup, and like Kelse above, I'm partial to RS4s. They are very forgiving for 200tw tires, still plenty quick, and most importantly they have a progressive transition from grip to slip. So you'll feel the car moving under you and have time to react, as opposed to much stickier tires where the transition from grip to slip is sudden and pretty much a binary switch.

3. Camber plates next. The E92 (and pretty much any production sports car) will understeer the harder you drive, because that's safer for street cars. You really need at least -2.5 of camber to start dialing that out, which camber plates are required to get. Most of us run Ground Control camber plates.

[slowdown_dan]

I appreciate that input guys! thank you. I'll max out my factory suspensions camber and get a feel for the differences made individually by the monoballs, engine mounts and brake upgrades. Then shoot tires/wheels (thanks for the RS4 rec) probably after my first track weekend so I don't totally destroy my street tires on the 2nd track weekend (which seems likely from what I've read) and then finally move onto coilovers and camber plates, probably for next summer after my skills are up. What are the reasons you guys chose GC over Vorschlag? Also, any recommendations for front sway bar/end links?

[dparm]

Don't take this the wrong way, but where does driver skill (read: coaching) fit into the build? Are you budgeting money for data acquisition/telemetry and coaching? This is how you will extract the most performance from the parts you buy. No point putting a high-end suspension on the car if you can't even safely keep the car on the limit, for example.

[slowdown_dan]

The first number of weekends will be spent with an instructor and I will go forward from there with making further arrangements for the appropriate instruction and logging. Everything new I undertake has been started with expert instruction (shooting sports, golf, cycling, etc).

Money spent early on with good instruction isn't even an expense to me, as I've almost always saved that money and more not buying or doing something stupid and ill informed.

[slowdown_dan]

Can you guys that run the RS4 in HPDE give me an idea of how many weekends (or sessions) you can get out of those tires?

[dparm]

Originally Posted by butte2butte

The first number of weekends will be spent with an instructor and I will go forward from there with making further arrangements for the appropriate instruction and logging. Everything new I undertake has been started with expert instruction (shooting sports, golf, cycling, etc).

Money spent early on with good instruction isn't even an expense to me, as I've almost always saved that money and more not buying or doing something stupid and ill informed.

Awesome to hear that, but I am using the word coach very deliberately. Instructing and coaching are two very different things. A coach will help you reach your full potential. Instructors are focused more on teaching fundamental skills.

The instructor is the guy who gets you comfortable with the racing line, understanding flags, building good habits with smooth inputs, looking two corners ahead, etc. Think of what you get in the "beginner" group at HPDE or at one of the 1-day high performance driving schools. A coach will be working to get you to be as fast as possible with data and hyper-personalized guidance.

I'm sure someone else can define it more eloquently than I can.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by butte2butte

Can you guys that run the RS4 in HPDE give me an idea of how many weekends (or sessions) you can get out of those tires?

Hard to generalize things like this. There are countless variables, such as:


ambient temperature
track temperature

driving style
track surface
track layout
alignment
suspension configuration
brake pads
tire pressure
tire size


The RS4 is known for its longevity, but it's relative. It is more durable than tires in its same performance category when all else is equal. If, for example, you notice your lap times are a half second slower than what you expected because that tire has traded off some ultimate grip for longevity, you might be tempted to push the tire harder and that would make it wear much faster.

Driving style might be one of the most overlooked components of tire life. Two different drivers in the same car could see very different wear due to their level of skill. I've seen people post about it here...complaints about "tire X only lasted one weekend" whereas someone else got four weekends at the same track with that tire.

There is some experimentation involved here, but the RS4 seems to be a good starting point if you want something that will last.

[OG Shark]

Car/skid control class - one of those where they put the plastic donuts on the rear tires & you go sliding all over the place learning how to control the car & bring it back from a slide. Then go start flogging the oem suspension until you are confident running without DSC. Then start upgrading the areas holding you back (including tires if desired). Learn the car in its slowest state - its more difficult to do when it is faster.

Other things you might consider are QFP (being more secure in the seat is very helpful) & exhaust and/or intake. The Schroth QFP helps keep you from getting all beat up & worn down at the end of the day trying to hold yourself in the seat & the aural upgrades are for the smiles. Make enjoying your track time a priority!

Dunlop Direzza ZIII is another good tire with long life and friendly manners. That was my starter tire & put a lot of laps on them starting out.

[Hoosier_M3]

Taking a big step back here, what's the plan for safety? I suggest doing that with the first big round of mods. Also since it's not a daily there's no reason to keep the stock seats.

A good starting point would be:

Helmet (if you didn't buy one already)
HANS device (this is paramount)
2x racing seats and 6 point harnesses (if you're going to have an instructor, don't compromise their safety)
Harness bar or 4 point roll bar (I'd suggest the latter, but can get away with the former)

[crowtrobot]

I think you have a pretty good attitude already in sticking with pads and fluid to start.

My suggestions would be:

1) Brakes (which it sounds like you've done)
2) Tires (some good 200TW as others have suggested. I prefer Falken Azenis RT615K+)
3) Then move on to suspension with a specific idea in mind. Are your tires wearing the shoulders, and you can't fix it with pressures? Camber plates. Is the car swaying too much? Is it unstable over bumps? Dampers. Is it balanced? Maybe you need swaybars, etc.
...
10000) Power mods last. There's way more to gain from experience than from the +10hp of a different exhaust. (All of my track time has been in a little 128i, and given experience, I've been able to pass plenty of drivers in cars with double the horsepower)

I'd say by the end of a season or two of HPDE's, you'll already have a better feel for the car and what things *you* would like to address, so trying to plan/change too much at the offset isn't super productive.

Probably don't need worry about seats/harnesses until you're running in the higher groups and longer sessions. This gets super expensive, and you'll get conflicting ideas about how it should be done from different groups, so leaving it stock is the best answer, IMHO.

[slowdown_dan]

Originally Posted by dparm

Awesome to hear that, but I am using the word coach very deliberately. Instructing and coaching are two very different things. A coach will help you reach your full potential. Instructors are focused more on teaching fundamental skills.

The instructor is the guy who gets you comfortable with the racing line, understanding flags, building good habits with smooth inputs, looking two corners ahead, etc. Think of what you get in the "beginner" group at HPDE or at one of the 1-day high performance driving schools. A coach will be working to get you to be as fast as possible with data and hyper-personalized guidance.

I'm sure someone else can define it more eloquently than I can.

I appreciate differentiating the two. I'll likely start with the instructor to get the fundamentals down, but am certainly interested in personalized coaching after the comfort level is built after the first few weekends. I can't know that a resource like individual coaching exists and not utilize it.

[slowdown_dan]

Originally Posted by dparm

Hard to generalize things like this. There are countless variables, such as:


ambient temperature
track temperature

driving style
track surface
track layout
alignment
suspension configuration
brake pads
tire pressure
tire size


The RS4 is known for its longevity, but it's relative. It is more durable than tires in its same performance category when all else is equal. If, for example, you notice your lap times are a half second slower than what you expected because that tire has traded off some ultimate grip for longevity, you might be tempted to push the tire harder and that would make it wear much faster.

Driving style might be one of the most overlooked components of tire life. Two different drivers in the same car could see very different wear due to their level of skill. I've seen people post about it here...complaints about "tire X only lasted one weekend" whereas someone else got four weekends at the same track with that tire.

There is some experimentation involved here, but the RS4 seems to be a good starting point if you want something that will last.

That makes perfect sense. Going in I have no expectations of achievement in terms of lap times. I am 1000% about slow is smooth and smooth is fast, certainly when learning a new skill. I'm currently learning both French and reteaching myself the piano after 20 years away from the keys, and so on a daily basis I'm reminding myself of this. Anyone ever read The Talent Code?

[slowdown_dan]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Car/skid control class - one of those where they put the plastic donuts on the rear tires & you go sliding all over the place learning how to control the car & bring it back from a slide. Then go start flogging the oem suspension until you are confident running without DSC. Then start upgrading the areas holding you back (including tires if desired). Learn the car in its slowest state - its more difficult to do when it is faster.

Other things you might consider are QFP (being more secure in the seat is very helpful) & exhaust and/or intake. The Schroth QFP helps keep you from getting all beat up & worn down at the end of the day trying to hold yourself in the seat & the aural upgrades are for the smiles. Make enjoying your track time a priority!

Dunlop Direzza ZIII is another good tire with long life and friendly manners. That was my starter tire & put a lot of laps on them starting out.

I'll look into that QFP. Thanks for the recommendation! When I was a kid my dad took me out on the frozen lake below our house and would randomly pull or push the steering wheel away from me while I was driving across the ice. The idea was that I learned to navigate my way out of an unplanned slide. It worked, maybe too well as my friends and I found a lot of winter time fun in "drifting" our cars on the lakes.

[slowdown_dan]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

Taking a big step back here, what's the plan for safety? I suggest doing that with the first big round of mods. Also since it's not a daily there's no reason to keep the stock seats.

A good starting point would be:

Helmet (if you didn't buy one already)
HANS device (this is paramount)
2x racing seats and 6 point harnesses (if you're going to have an instructor, don't compromise their safety)
Harness bar or 4 point roll bar (I'd suggest the latter, but can get away with the former)

I nearly purchased a helmet online before my better senses kicked in. I've decided to wait until I get an opportunity to try them on. I know from other hobbies requiring helmet protection that every manufacturer has their idea of what a head is shaped like. While brand x might seem great on paper, if it doesn't fit my long oval headshape, it won't work for me. Speaking of...anyone know a manufacturer for which this head shape fits? Something to keep my eyes on when I get the chance to try them on.

A HANS device won't work unless I have a cage, racing seats and harnesses, right? I think I'll certainly get there, but I probably won't show up to my first weekend with a 98% stock M3 and have it caged out for a season or two.

[slowdown_dan]

crowtrobot tell me more about what you like about the 615k+! I have the fk510's as my street tire and like them for what they are. Have researched them but haven't come up with much for reviews on cars like ours. Certainly interested to hear your thoughts on it compared to other tires you've put through the paces.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by butte2butte

Can you guys that run the RS4 in HPDE give me an idea of how many weekends (or sessions) you can get out of those tires?

I started tracking with RS4, and I got 9 days (2 substantially wet) before they were heat cycled out (~6 20 minute sessions per day average). My best lap time decreased approximately a second every day, and then after the best RS4 time I did they were gone, albeit with tons of tread left. The 10th day on them was garbagio. In addition to being slower, they were very poorly behaved and couldn't take any slip angle.

Next I did 6 days on NT01 before cording one.

Then I added aero and got 3 days (21 20 minute sessions) on NT01 before cording two tires simultaneously today.

I think I need more tire

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

I started tracking with RS4, and I got 9 days (2 substantially wet) before they were heat cycled out (~6 20 minute sessions per day average). My best lap time decreased approximately a second every day, and then after the best RS4 time I did they were gone, albeit with tons of tread left. The 10th day on them was garbagio. In addition to being slower, they were very poorly behaved and couldn't take any slip angle.

Next I did 6 days on NT01 before cording one.

Then I added aero and got 3 days (21 20 minute sessions) on NT01 before cording two tires simultaneously today.

I think I need more tire

Tire consumption is directly related to lap times. Is it possible that you got faster, rather than the tire consumption changed?

In the wet you are going slower and consume less tires. I can probably last a season if all my track days were in the rain.

[m13s]

Sebring is hard on equipment. Keep it on track and stay off the gators. Ditto what someone else said about coaching, Save your money on mods and learn to drive, then mod. Good luck!

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Tire consumption is directly related to lap times. Is it possible that you got faster, rather than the tire consumption changed?

In the wet you are going slower and consume less tires. I can probably last a season if all my track days were in the rain.

Absolutely. That's why I gave the extra information...

[Hoosier_M3]

Originally Posted by butte2butte

I nearly purchased a helmet online before my better senses kicked in. I've decided to wait until I get an opportunity to try them on. I know from other hobbies requiring helmet protection that every manufacturer has their idea of what a head is shaped like. While brand x might seem great on paper, if it doesn't fit my long oval headshape, it won't work for me. Speaking of...anyone know a manufacturer for which this head shape fits? Something to keep my eyes on when I get the chance to try them on.

A HANS device won't work unless I have a cage, racing seats and harnesses, right? I think I'll certainly get there, but I probably won't show up to my first weekend with a 98% stock M3 and have it caged out for a season or two.

Yeah it's unfortunately something that needs to be done all at once. I agree it's not worth doing for your first season first but if you end up getting hooked it would be a good addition over the winter.

A proper seat/harness setup will also transform the driving experience. So much easier to drive when you're not sliding around in the seat.