Lightning Lap: M3 runs faster than Cayman S and 911 Carrera S

[M3V8Driver]

Originally Posted by M&M

Racing around a circuit is about keeping momentum through the turns. Power-to-weight is more a straight-line type of measure.

<<snip>>

But they didn't. So the Porsche's platform is better for handling. But power-to-weight is not something I would bring up in a cornering argument.

So you don't put the hammer down until you're completely out of the corner and onto the next straight? I start putting it down WAY before the corner exit, which means power-to-weight helps in cornering too. Ever hear of "throttle oversteer", or inducing oversteer to rotate the car in a turn?

How 'bout the power to kill a Cayman, with a 200 yard headstart...
with M bullets! That's power-to-weight Kyle! How 'bout the power to move you?

[330CIZHP]

Again x 2

All cars were consistently been driven by the same two 2 race track drivers so the same drivers both drove the M3, Cayman, 911 S.

Again you can easily turn it around by saying, despite the 400 lbs weight handicap, two extra seats, more trunk space, front engine placement instead of mid-ship layout, the M3 still outran the Cayman and 911 S.

Likewise, if the Cayman S is the power underdog then the M3 is the weight underdog. Imagine how the M3 would decimate the Cayman S if it had weighed only 3200 lbs like the Cayman S.

Originally Posted by TLud

Then by the same token, you could say the M3 is an underdog in terms of pricing, total weight, and probably a few other metrics. Again, it's all about how you want to structure the argument, but at the end of the day, the numbers are the numbers.

You didn't specifically reference the GT3 or the TT, but impliedly referred to those cars by stating that "Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car." The fact that the Cayman S is Porsche's entry level offering and the M3 is BMW's most track-oriented vehicle is irrelevant to this comparison and doesn't change the fact that the Cayman S is still more expensive than the M3.

Again, I don't think you and I disagree on anything here, but I couldn't help but call you out on what I perceived to be some Porsche bias. I probably wouldn't have mentioned it, but in a forum full of fanboys (on all sides), I've generally valued your input and opinions as being more objective and well-reasoned than most.

[footie]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Again x 2

All cars were consistently been driven by the same two 2 race track drivers so the same drivers both drove the M3, Cayman, 911 S.

Again you can easily turn it around by saying, despite the 400 lbs weight handicap, two extra seats, more trunk space, front engine placement instead of mid-ship layout, the M3 still outran the Cayman and 911 S.

Likewise, if the Cayman S is the power underdog then the M3 is the weight underdog. Imagine how the M3 would decimate the Cayman S if it had weighed only 3200 lbs like the Cayman S.

That's more like the fighting spirit a was expecting, not the 'Porsche bias' remark we had earlier.

I said it earlier, the only real loser was the Carrera S, it's still rear engined and requires far more skill to achieve the same results as was achieved out of the other two.

Of course PTW effects the outcome, if you think of the corners as dots on a map then the straights are the lines that join them and I would bet my sizable income that a Cayman with the same PTW as the M3 would have been comfortably ahead and we all know this. But credit to the M3 it had only brute power and BMW wizardry only it's side and it beat the lot of them.

P.S.
We've praised enough about the M3 and Cayman. I'm bored now, let's discuss the Audis. (j/k)

[alms21]

"and if" my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

These "what ifs" have got to go, people. Why on earth can't everybody look at the goddamn results for what they are?

Porsche will NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS have a CaymanS outperform ANY 911 so get used to it being underpowered.

The Cayman IS NOT the entry level Porsche. Ever heard of the Boxster?

[TLud]

Originally Posted by footie

P.S.
We've praised enough about the M3 and Cayman. I'm bored now, let's discuss the Audis. (j/k)

Lol. You're not kidding. C'mon, I know you want to revive the TT-S discussion.

[ChasenM3]

Why are they running DCT? Whats wrong with manual?!!!

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by ChasenM3

Why are they running DCT? Whats wrong with manual?!!!

It is up to the manufacturer to provide them with a car they feel should be put to test. BMW supplied them with an M-DCT despite them wanting 6 speed manual. (in the wake of last year's M-DCT same issue of refusing to downshift under heavy braking).

[jml]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

It is up to the manufacturer to provide them with a car they feel should be put to test. BMW supplied them with an M-DCT despite them wanting 6 speed manual. (in the wake of last year's M-DCT same issue of refusing to downshift under heavy braking).

I am glad they sent a DCT, the press around its issues on the track have motivated BMW to fix them (mostly)

[mkoesel]

The only thing more interesting than all of this will be when they put a 2011 Mustang GT into the mix. Guys, I have a feeling that car is going to surprise a hell of a lot people. Just my hunch though.

[330CIZHP]

The whole "what if"? scenario by people like TLud, me and other is pointed TOWARDS YOU! Why are you telling me what if Cayman S had 415 HP?? Why do I care what would have happened?? Apparently, only you do to prove your Cayman S could have been more than what it is in production trim to this test and that is why everyone mentions counter arguments!

The whole point where I said what if M3 was 400 lbs lighter was a counter argument to your continuous excuses as usual of "what if the Porsche Cayman S had 50 more HP".

Fact of the matter is, you can make all the kinds of assumptions about the driver driving. They clearly have mentioned the M-DCT was giving issues that hampered the track drivers abilities to get the proper gear while entering corners and yet, it still ran faster than the Cayman S and 911 S by a full 0.4 seconds.

We are here not to see "what if this would have happened or that". It is a matter of all the cars were tested by two race track drivers and M3 came out faster consistently despite having M-DCT issues in THIS particular test. Period.

Originally Posted by shift@red

Did you ever think that even though the same driver was driving both cars, the Cayman S and M3 were EASIER to drive? Even though the guy driving them may not have been able to drive all to their full potential, he was able to drive the Cayman S and M3 to a greater amount of its full potential than he was the 911. This was without a doubt the case.
So what? You can make the case for anything you want but there are defintately 4000+ lbs, 4 door, front engined, 4 person cars out there that could put down better lap times...panamera turbo, ferrari california, 599 gtb.

LOL. And if the cayman had 415 hp, the m3 would be 'decimated' even worse. How about this, since you keep throwing out the biggest hypotheticals (since even the m3 gts wont come be near 3200 lbs and its nearly fully stripped); both cars are 3200 lbs, and have 415 hp, the M3 would be slower!

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry to come over all PRO-AUDI here

But did any of you notice the 3:08.4 time set by the TT-S, 265hp and hauling 1490kg. Very impressive figures for what is a fwd bias AWD car. Also a piss poor showing by the 370Z Nismo, I wonder what happened there?

On the other hand, the 335i coupe did 3:10.5 last time they ran it, versus 3:10.8 for the S4 this time.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

The whole "what if"? scenario by people like TLud, me and other is pointed TOWARDS YOU! Why are you telling me what if Cayman S had 415 HP?? Why do I care what would have happened?? Apparently, only you do to prove your Cayman S could have been more than what it is in production trim to this test and that is why everyone mentions counter arguments!

The whole point where I said what if M3 was 400 lbs lighter was a counter argument to your continuous excuses as usual of "what if the Porsche Cayman S had 50 more HP".

Fact of the matter is, you can make all the kinds of assumptions about the driver driving. They clearly have mentioned the M-DCT was giving issues that hampered the track drivers abilities to get the proper gear while entering corners and yet, it still ran faster than the Cayman S and 911 S by a full 0.4 seconds.

We are here not to see "what if this would have happened or that". It is a matter of all the cars were tested by two race track drivers and M3 came out faster consistently despite having M-DCT issues in THIS particular test. Period.

Frankly, I'm pretty sure we all understand each others' positions by now. And shift@red does make the very legitimate point that the 997S was clearly not being driven to its full potential. Blame it on the driver or something wrong with that particular car, but this result is obviously a statistical outlier as it is the only test I have seen that has ended up with this result.

Really, what I take away from these comparisons is that the Cayman is surprisingly fast given its relative lack of power, and the M3 is surprisingly nimble in the corners given its relative girth.

[330CIZHP]

I agree. I expected 911 S to run much faster than it did. A few ticks quicker than the M3 around where the Corvette Grandsport is. I also do not buy much of the "engine hanging in the wrong place" theory. Good or bad, Porsche makes it works and wins races with the GT3 cup car year after year. That does all the talking.

Originally Posted by TLud

Frankly, I'm pretty sure we all understand each others' positions by now. And shift@red does make the very legitimate point that the 997S was clearly not being driven to its full potential. Blame it on the driver or something wrong with that particular car, but this result is obviously a statistical outlier as it is the only test I have seen that has ended up with this result.

Really, what I take away from these comparisons is that the Cayman is surprisingly fast given its relative lack of power, and the M3 is surprisingly nimble in the corners given its relative girth.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by M3V8Driver

So you don't put the hammer down until you're completely out of the corner and onto the next straight? I start putting it down WAY before the corner exit, which means power-to-weight helps in cornering too. Ever hear of "throttle oversteer", or inducing oversteer to rotate the car in a turn?

How 'bout the power to kill a Cayman, with a 200 yard headstart...
with M bullets! That's power-to-weight Kyle! How 'bout the power to move you?

I've heard of TRAILING throttle oversteer and trail braking to induce oversteer to rotate a car in a turn. Oversteer can be induced by putting more weight on the front of the car by braking while turning (trail braking) or by decellerating. Accelerating will shift weight to the back of the car and will generally cause the car to understeer.

CA

[M&M]

Originally Posted by M3V8Driver

So you don't put the hammer down until you're completely out of the corner and onto the next straight? I start putting it down WAY before the corner exit, which means power-to-weight helps in cornering too.

Of course you do. But what is more important for cornering? It's having a lower weight, better balance etc. A Lotus elise can smoke cars with 4 times its power around a circuit. As can even a Lotus 7. Ever wonder why?

Where does power help you? On the straights.

Where have having lower mass help you (and maybe a better CoG)?

Well the whole dam lap. Eevry time you hit the throttle. Every time you step on the brakes. Much better stopping distances with a lighter car. Everty time you enter a corner as well the lower mass helps.

So actually you could say the M3 is the underdog in a circuit battle. Every time I want to improve times on a car I work on suspension, brakes then tyres. And you can drop a good few seconds with just that.

Adding power, sometime I've even added up to 40 whp & it madealmost ZERO impact on laptime. Any person that have ever raced will tell you that straight line speed is not the key to dropping laptimes. Lowering the weight, tyres, suspension & brakes is what I would focus on. But hey, what do I know?

What is this throttle oversteer you speak of? I have never heard of it.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Jim Pearce

On the other hand, the 335i coupe did 3:10.5 last time they ran it, versus 3:10.8 for the S4 this time.

It may very well just be the fact of a different day producing slightly slower results or on the other hand it very well could be that this track suits less weight which would make the M3's time all the more impressive.

On reading the article it appeared that the S4's rear was a bit lively for them and they tried to dial out some of the aggression. It's not something you instantly get use to but when you click with the S4 is can be very impressive, plus it was actually quicker than the RS4 which is a good sign that the RS5 will be mighty.

[footie]

I'll lets you guys argue out your little pissing contest of wit as to what ultimately makes one car better than another. We all have opinions on this and some of you will be right and some you will be less so.

The only thing I will say is don't jump to quick to the opinion that it's weight that is always king in these situations.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by footie

Considering the Cayman S is down 100hp and has much less PTW than either the 997 or the M3 I think it was the best car of the three on the day. Also it didn't state whether it was equipped with the LSD, if the case is that is didn't then this would improve it's lap time even further.

WTF Footie? Seriously dude, somehow you disguise yourself so no one screams TROLL whenever you post. I mean you had me fooled for more than a year but seriously, I could bet my entire company on the fact that any thread that allows you to put the //M in 2nd, or highlight its shortcomings, etc you take full advantage.

It just gets so old........

Why do you even post in this forum anymore

Cheers,
e46e92

[ruff]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

WTF Footie? Seriously dude, somehow you disguise yourself so no one screams TROLL whenever you post. I mean you had me fooled for more than a year but seriously, I could bet my entire company on the fact that any thread that allows you to put the //M in 2nd, or highlight its shortcomings, etc you take full advantage.

It just gets so old........

Why do you even post in this forum anymore

Cheers,
e46e92

What is this fear of a counter viewpoint to your own? Is the First Amendment not to your liking? Should it be mandated that any member making positive comments toward an automobile not sporting a roundel be banned?

[TLud]

This is a lot of brouhaha over nothing. Even footie will admit that he sometimes takes it too far, but it's become something of a running joke. I like the different perspectives and personalities that he and others here add, and he knows his stuff. I called him out earlier in this thread anyway, so no need to rehash this all over again.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by TLud

This is a lot of brouhaha over nothing. Even footie will admit that he sometimes takes it too far, but it's become something of a running joke. I like the different perspectives and personalities that he and others here add, and he knows his stuff. I called him out earlier in this thread anyway, so no need to rehash this all over again.

You own the M3. I own the Cayman S. Let me attempt to inject a bit of objectivity into this discussion.

The Corvette Grand Sport unequivocally separates this bad boy from the wanna bees and their fancy haughty European counterparts at a performance to dollar ratio.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by ruff

You own the M3. I own the Cayman S. Let me attempt to inject a bit of objectivity into this discussion.

The Corvette Grand Sport unequivocally separates this bad boy from the wanna bees and their fancy haughty European counterparts at a performance to dollar ratio.

That's my whole point, no one's going to be completely objective when it comes to automotive discussions, and in fact, that's the whole fun in jawing about cars. Comparing the 'vette to either the CS or the M3 is about as close to pure objectivity as you'll get on this forum (at least until some fanboy jumps to the ever popular fallback argument regarding interior fit and finish).