E92 vs. E46 on track with equal power?

[d k]

I was looking into the beams engine and that seemed pretty good...

Have to figure out how to fit an 18x12 tire though

Originally Posted by SAMM3Y

A good motor for the mr2 would be a JDM Toyota turbo 3s-gte motor. From the same generation too I think 4th gen?

[d k]

No, Im only looking at the ZZW30.

The SW20 is 3000lbs or some crazyness like that.
The zzw30 is only 2100

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Lol all of the SW20 MR2 guys are tossing the 3s-gte in favor of the 2gr V6.

[SAMM3Y]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Lol all of the SW20 MR2 guys are tossing the 3s-gte in favor of the 2gr V6.

Are they? No idea. I was thinking of the rally GT-four motor from the same year as the newer Spyder, thought OP was looking for a turbo 4.

[dparm]

A local TT/ST guy just did an LS swap in his 86. He used to have a supercharger on the OEM motor. The LS gives him a ton of flexibility and is fairly compact.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by d k

Hi

Just curious if anyone has tracked both and what the opinions are?

Obviously the V8 has a bunch more power, thats why I asked the question with equal power...

Also, whats a good gutted race weight of the E92?

Thank you

Oh hi. I have both cars. Thanks roastbeef for pinging me.

Similar grip tires comparison - warning tho, shaking off rust in the E92 video below as I was coming from a 14 month break:

Mine are at similar levels of prep, but my E46 weighs 3060 lbs and my E92 about 3360ish. I have more easy weight to lose out of my E92 - I still have door cards for driver/passenger, the carpet for the front row, headliner, still using fat OEM battery atm.

I think it's possible to get obscenely light but you're going to be spending a lot of money to do so with CF panels, doors.

Handling wise, my E46 feels easier to drive. The turn-in on that car is just joy, and it doesn't feel so ponderous. Power-wise the car did 300 whp on the JMP dyno with a dinan exhaust/stock headers - I can only imagine what it does with the straight pipe exhaust + stepped v1 supersprint headers. I only wish in this configuration she wasn't so loud (107+ dB!) - it makes driving her on NorCal tracks impossible. I tried once at Thunderhill and I got flagged for sound, lol.

My E92 makes 360whp in comparison (different dyno).

[DRLane]

@redpriest Enjoyed these laps! Was that a Model 3 in front of you in the e92 video?

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by DRLane

@redpriest Enjoyed these laps! Was that a Model 3 in front of you in the e92 video?

Yes, lol, they had a couple Tesla sprint races that day so there were a ton of them out there. This particular guy was fairly quick. Usually the Z4 in front is faster but his splitter broke, so he had no turn-in.

[d k]

True.

But its still 57/43 f/r which is simply unacceptable to me.

Originally Posted by dparm

A local TT/ST guy just did an LS swap in his 86. He used to have a supercharger on the OEM motor. The LS gives him a ton of flexibility and is fairly compact.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by d k

True.

But its still 57/43 f/r which is simply unacceptable to me.

Any front engine RWD race car is going to be hard to get to 50/50 or 49/51 weight distribution without ballast or serious mods like moving the engine and trans further back, moving the driver rearward, etc. People move fuel cells to behind the rear axle to help sometimes, but that weight distribution is only ideal with heavier fuel loads. If 50/50 is your goal with a BMW platform and likely a swapped drivetrain to make your power goals, you'll have to seriously modify the car to achieve it or alter your expectations slightly.

Past some E30's with S14's, I haven't seen many grassroot build (I don't think any) E36 or E46, and no E92 M3 race cars with 50% up front (without rear ballast) - it's always been around 51-53%.

[d k]

Hows it going?
Just the guy I need to talk to lol...

A 56 is a decent time on a 200tw..

Do you have data?

It would be awesome to do an overlay.

Im particularly interested in the acceleration out of tight corners like the off ramp and the ‘sweeper’ leading into the esses.

If you had the v8 in your 46, but the 46 weighed 3300 lbs, do you think it would be faster or slower than the 92?

Im trying to find some quantifiable way to compare the 92’s suspension from the 46.


And to expand on this more, I have the following comparison:

A Radical did a 6:47 at nordscleife.
An E36 M3 with stock power (supposedly) did a 7:17

Thats a hige head scratcher for me because the radical should be a minute faster lol.

Why is that🤔?

Originally Posted by redpriest

Oh hi. I have both cars. Thanks roastbeef for pinging me.

Similar grip tires comparison - warning tho, shaking off rust in the E92 video below as I was coming from a 14 month break:

Mine are at similar levels of prep, but my E46 weighs 3060 lbs and my E92 about 3360ish. I have more easy weight to lose out of my E92 - I still have door cards for driver/passenger, the carpet for the front row, headliner, still using fat OEM battery atm.

I think it's possible to get obscenely light but you're going to be spending a lot of money to do so with CF panels, doors.

Handling wise, my E46 feels easier to drive. The turn-in on that car is just joy, and it doesn't feel so ponderous. Power-wise the car did 300 whp on the JMP dyno with a dinan exhaust/stock headers - I can only imagine what it does with the straight pipe exhaust + stepped v1 supersprint headers. I only wish in this configuration she wasn't so loud (107+ dB!) - it makes driving her on NorCal tracks impossible. I tried once at Thunderhill and I got flagged for sound, lol.

My E92 makes 360whp in comparison (different dyno).

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by d k

Hows it going?
Just the guy I need to talk to lol...

A 56 is a decent time on a 200tw..

Do you have data?

It would be awesome to do an overlay.

Im particularly interested in the acceleration out of tight corners like the off ramp and the ‘sweeper’ leading into the esses.

If you had the v8 in your 46, but the 46 weighed 3300 lbs, do you think it would be faster or slower than the 92?

Im trying to find some quantifiable way to compare the 92’s suspension from the 46.


And to expand on this more, I have the following comparison:

A Radical did a 6:47 at nordscleife.
An E36 M3 with stock power (supposedly) did a 7:17

Thats a hige head scratcher for me because the radical should be a minute faster lol.

Why is that🤔?

Yeah I have data. It's AIM data so if you want I can find the laps and share them with you, or I can do a quick video of the lap comparison. I don't know if they're truly comparable that way. I suspect my E92's diff is very tired since I'm having issues coming out of corners just like Buttonhook that I don't remember ever having before; or maybe that's just a function of having driven the E46 there more recently.

It's hard to say since I haven't driven a lighter E92 what would be superior of the two. I have faster lap times in the E92 on slicks that I wasn't able to achieve on the E46 but a lot of that is just driver error, heh.

One thing to note that for these laps I have a passenger, she weighs about ~100 lbs and the seat/mounting/helmets and all probably add about 40-50lbs extra weight. That's on both cars.

There's something you should know about E46, is that they are much more fragile cars than the E92. There are a lot more glass jaws you have to address - VANOS, subframe, and yeah, rod bearings too. I think because of these fragility issues BMW probably overengineered the next car.

[d k]

Sure, if it was easy everyone would be doing it, but its not impossible.

Also, if I couldn't get to 50/50, then 51/49 is till better that 60/40...

With that much weight on the front end, you are really just driving around the problem.
It is possible for a car to be fast this way, but proper weight distribution would make it faster still, and be much better on tires.

Originally Posted by tsk94

Any front engine RWD race car is going to be hard to get to 50/50 or 49/51 weight distribution without ballast or serious mods like moving the engine and trans further back, moving the driver rearward, etc. People move fuel cells to behind the rear axle to help sometimes, but that weight distribution is only ideal with heavier fuel loads. If 50/50 is your goal with a BMW platform and likely a swapped drivetrain to make your power goals, you'll have to seriously modify the car to achieve it or alter your expectations slightly.

Past some E30's with S14's, I haven't seen many grassroot build (I don't think any) E36 or E46, and no E92 M3 race cars with 50% up front (without rear ballast) - it's always been around 51-53%.

[d k]

Thank you.

I probably would do some kind of a swap, that's for sure.
N54 maybe? Or even an LS....


BTW, do you have aero on either car?

Also, have you had any issues with your dct in the E92?

Originally Posted by redpriest

There's something you should know about E46, is that they are much more fragile cars than the E92. There are a lot more glass jaws you have to address - VANOS, subframe, and yeah, rod bearings too. I think because of these fragility issues BMW probably overengineered the next car.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by d k

Sure, if it was easy everyone would be doing it, but its not impossible.

Also, if I couldn't get to 50/50, then 51/49 is till better that 60/40...

With that much weight on the front end, you are really just driving around the problem.
It is possible for a car to be fast this way, but proper weight distribution would make it faster still, and be much better on tires.

Definitely possible! My point was more so that's it's not super easy to achieve, otherwise you'd have a lot/most cars with perfect 50/50. Depending on how serious you want to get with the build, it's very possible to achieve.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by dparm

A local TT/ST guy just did an LS swap in his 86. He used to have a supercharger on the OEM motor. The LS gives him a ton of flexibility and is fairly compact.

The 86 is a great lightweight chassis. I am looking forward to seeing more K swaps on that platform with FI. Should be a rowdy time

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

The 86 is a great lightweight chassis. I am looking forward to seeing more K swaps on that platform with FI. Should be a rowdy time

That's not a bad idea actually. K24 Turbo swapped 86 would be right in the range of the OP's goals of light weight and big power.

[dparm]

The beauty of the LS is not only that it has an insane amount of aftermarket parts AND is cheap, but that it can be easily detuned to run a variety of classes. I think he said he will have tunes to run it in ST2, 3, and 4...and be competitive in all of them.

[DRLane]

LS swapped M coupe or M roadster would fit the bill nicely.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by d k

Thank you.

I probably would do some kind of a swap, that's for sure.
N54 maybe? Or even an LS....


BTW, do you have aero on either car?

Also, have you had any issues with your dct in the E92?

No aero. Two issues with DCT: pan and side gasket leak (handled under warranty when I got the car many years ago), and DCT overheating on track which is solved by the do88 dct cooler.

[d k]

fixed for you

Originally Posted by Kelse92

The 86 is a porky mediocre chassis.

[d k]

To add to that...not every LS is the same.

I have a Daytona Prototype engine that would easily turn 9krpm.

Very different from a stroker LS1.

There is a lot of unusual combinations that you can do with the LS and now the LT of course.

Originally Posted by dparm

The beauty of the LS is not only that it has an insane amount of aftermarket parts AND is cheap, but that it can be easily detuned to run a variety of classes. I think he said he will have tunes to run it in ST2, 3, and 4...and be competitive in all of them.

[d k]

I talked to a BMW race team out of florida and the guy said they chased the DCT overheating issue for years and were never able to fix the issue.
After they switched to manual, problems went away.

Originally Posted by redpriest

No aero. Two issues with DCT: pan and side gasket leak (handled under warranty when I got the car many years ago), and DCT overheating on track which is solved by the do88 dct cooler.