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      11-19-2018, 07:03 PM   #23
ynguldyn
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Originally Posted by georgere View Post
Can you elaborate why it is not rated to deliver 280-300 range if it is so easy to get those numbers?
What are you talking about? It's rated 310 miles EPA cycle.

Last edited by ynguldyn; 11-19-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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      11-19-2018, 07:12 PM   #24
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Not to start a forum fight but just like m3 has 480-500HP according to forums, officially it is actually specified by BMW to have only 430HP. Which one do you believe?
Are you honestly suggesting someone getting 270 miles range on a Model 3 with a lead foot, won't be able to do 300+ miles driving like a grandma?
Can you elaborate why it is not rated to deliver 280-300 range if it is so easy to get those numbers?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/electre...pa-rating/amp/

EPA rated for 310 miles, confirmed in real life by countless owners. Just takes some conservative driving, like any ICE vehicle.

I was never able to achieve EPA rating on my M3...
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      11-19-2018, 07:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 440xiGCMSport2 View Post
The only areas that Tesla is behind is build quality/manufacturing, and interior design/quality. everywhere else they are ahead. Their electric motor is ahead of everyone else so is their battery technology. Their network is also ahead and their chassis design is currently better than anything else available. I don't own one as I still see electric vehicles are still in the early adopter stage but if I were to buy one it would be no doubt a Tesla.
As soon as Tesla starts leasing Model 3 the industry will be turned on its head.

Model Y will be unveiled in March and the Tesla Pickup shortly there after.

BMW had better get cracking.
This.
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      11-19-2018, 08:53 PM   #26
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I love how ANY mention of ANYTHING tesla automatically makes people on this board draw battle lines.

No, wait.. I dont love it, I think its silly.

Its a car, not politics, yet people dig in like it IS politics.
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      11-19-2018, 09:33 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by georgere View Post
Can you elaborate why it is not rated to deliver 280-300 range if it is so easy to get those numbers?
What are you talking about? It's rated 310 miles EPA cycle.
Here it says 220... maybe there is a larger battery option. If so that's great. My point was only about official rating which I thought was way under 300. But if they have 310 option that's good, just don't tell me it is actually 350 while official rating is 310....

https://3.tesla.com/model3/design
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      11-19-2018, 09:36 PM   #28
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Here it says 220... maybe there is a larger battery option.
Maybe indeed.
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      11-19-2018, 10:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
I love how ANY mention of ANYTHING tesla automatically makes people on this board draw battle lines.

No, wait.. I dont love it, I think its silly.

Its a car, not politics, yet people dig in like it IS politics.
No they don't dig in because of politics they dig in because it's reality.

If you get politics the hell out of the way you'll be able to focus and see clearly.
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      11-19-2018, 11:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by 440xiGCMSport2 View Post
The only areas that Tesla is behind is build quality/manufacturing, and interior design/quality. everywhere else they are ahead. Their electric motor is ahead of everyone else so is their battery technology. Their network is also ahead and their chassis design is currently better than anything else available. I don't own one as I still see electric vehicles are still in the early adopter stage but if I were to buy one it would be no doubt a Tesla.
Honestly, BMW just has to get their shit together and commit to EVs instead of worrying about offering "choices" and cannibalizing their dealer ICE service networks and ICE sales. VW is committing to EVs and they shouldn't look back. BMW should do the same and bring to market a full lineup for EVs and autonomous cars ASAP! They are quickly losing market share to Telsa and they are a tech company that is still figuring out how to build cars. If BMW committed to producing a full lineup of EVs and released the i3, i4, i5, iX3, iX5, i8, etc it would have put Tesla to bed. Instead they stalled and caned the i5???WHY??? They should have built on their momentum of the i line and started to phase out their ICEs. Instead here we are getting iPerformance cars...its not going to cut it against full EVs like Teslas.
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      11-20-2018, 12:48 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by 440xiGCMSport2 View Post
The only areas that Tesla is behind is build quality/manufacturing, and interior design/quality. everywhere else they are ahead. Their electric motor is ahead of everyone else so is their battery technology. Their network is also ahead and their chassis design is currently better than anything else available. I don't own one as I still see electric vehicles are still in the early adopter stage but if I were to buy one it would be no doubt a Tesla.
Honestly, BMW just has to get their shit together and commit to EVs instead of worrying about offering "choices" and cannibalizing their dealer ICE service networks and ICE sales. VW is committing to EVs and they shouldn't look back. BMW should do the same and bring to market a full lineup for EVs and autonomous cars ASAP! They are quickly losing market share to Telsa and they are a tech company that is still figuring out how to build cars. If BMW committed to producing a full lineup of EVs and released the i3, i4, i5, iX3, iX5, i8, etc it would have put Tesla to bed. Instead they stalled and caned the i5???WHY??? They should have built on their momentum of the i line and started to phase out their ICEs. Instead here we are getting iPerformance cars...its not going to cut it against full EVs like Teslas.
The problem though is that it isn't as simple as just BMW building a more dedicated chassis.
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      11-20-2018, 01:32 AM   #32
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      11-20-2018, 01:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by georgere View Post
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
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Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
Watch out Model 3
Not really. Having had some experience with Model 3, I don't believe catching up to it is possible without a clean slate design. Sure, you might have a more comfortable vehicle (there's no argument that BMW makes better interiors), but an 80kWh battery dropped into what is built to be primarily an ICE vehicle won't be anywhere close to the 300+ mile range of a 75kWh Model 3. Witness the I-Pace that's rated for the puny 234 miles with a 90kWh battery.
I didn't know model 3 had 300+ range - that's a myth that cannot be proven by EPA, correct?
Yes Model 3 does have 300+ miles.

There are 3 Batteries options on Model 3.

Long -Range, Mid-Range, And incoming Short-Range.
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      11-20-2018, 04:40 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by sheepboy View Post
Are you serious? Why?

Tesla has manufactured and sold tens of thousands of Model 3s and has hundreds of thousands of reservation holders waiting to write them a check as fast as they can build their cars.

Meanwhile, BMW, who is completely lost in this game, decides to repurpose an ICE platform as opposed to actually build an electric car properly?

People like you seem to believe that Tesla will simply freeze Model 3 development so, by the time BMW builds their first i-whatever car, it will be competing with the current version of the Model 3! Which, by the way, is an incredible car.

If someone has to watch out, I would say it is BMW...
You are clearly just talking about one market only. And that is the US. In no other country/continent is Tesla leading in electric mobility. The cars have bad interior quality, a screen which commands everything (that is not something I want to have in my car as thousands and thousands of other Europeans dont want either) AND most importantly, the European market is waiting and waiting on the Model 3 to finally get delivered (and are sick of it as a lot of customers decline their order). A lot of people are just waiting for some competitors to finally offer a vehicle in the size of a Model 3.

BTW: have you checked the energy balance of an all electric vehicle recently? It's worse than an actual car - and a lot of people around the globe start realizing this. Battery, and especially the Tesla technology is not the future.
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      11-20-2018, 05:06 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by sheepboy View Post
Are you serious? Why?

Tesla has manufactured and sold tens of thousands of Model 3s and has hundreds of thousands of reservation holders waiting to write them a check as fast as they can build their cars.

Meanwhile, BMW, who is completely lost in this game, decides to repurpose an ICE platform as opposed to actually build an electric car properly?

People like you seem to believe that Tesla will simply freeze Model 3 development so, by the time BMW builds their first i-whatever car, it will be competing with the current version of the Model 3! Which, by the way, is an incredible car.

If someone has to watch out, I would say it is BMW...
You're 100% right. People also don't understand that Tesla is a software and electronics company.

They have achieved a lot of great things with their software. Their traction control is so much better than the rest of the automotive industry it is crazy. The feedback loop is much tighter, you can slam your foot to the floor in any Tesla and you get the maximum acceleration the surface allows, every time.

They write all their software in house and their development process is of a software company, not a rigid automotive company. The Germans outsource most core stuff to the likes of Bosch, and the Japanese OEMs are just terrible at it.

Trying to turn a platform for an ICE car into an EV is already a failure. The battery placement is absolutely critical. BMW fans like to complain about where Audi puts their engines. This is going to be even worse.

Last edited by chris719; 11-20-2018 at 05:16 AM.
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      11-20-2018, 05:14 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by eau_rouge View Post
You are clearly just talking about one market only. And that is the US. In no other country/continent is Tesla leading in electric mobility. The cars have bad interior quality, a screen which commands everything (that is not something I want to have in my car as thousands and thousands of other Europeans dont want either) AND most importantly, the European market is waiting and waiting on the Model 3 to finally get delivered (and are sick of it as a lot of customers decline their order). A lot of people are just waiting for some competitors to finally offer a vehicle in the size of a Model 3.

BTW: have you checked the energy balance of an all electric vehicle recently? It's worse than an actual car - and a lot of people around the globe start realizing this. Battery, and especially the Tesla technology is not the future.
The interior is not really any worse than a lower end BMW.

If you don't think that electric is the future for powertrains, you are in complete denial.

Tesla has come this far with no novel battery chemistry. They are already good enough for a lot of people in the US, which means they are more than that for most of Europe. Billions and billions of R&D dollars are being spent on batteries and supercapacitors. The next breakthrough will come and it will make ICE passenger cars obsolete.

I am an M car fan, but this is undeniable. You might change your story if you've ever driven a car with a good EV powertrain.

If you can't wrap your mind around Tesla, fine, but Porsche will show you the way also.
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      11-20-2018, 05:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepboy View Post
Are you serious? Why?

Tesla has manufactured and sold tens of thousands of Model 3s and has hundreds of thousands of reservation holders waiting to write them a check as fast as they can build their cars.
Lovely - all in just two countries too. No need to go where dragons be .

I still chuckle at the idea that Tesla is a global threat. It's easy to fuck the competition when your don't mind burning $10bn and have $2.2bn in cash to spend on market-building. I suppose if Tesla manages to turn it around in the next 2-3 years and build on the small profit it just announced, start selling some cars in more places, they will become a dominant force.
There is no room for complacency on either side; if Tesla just wants to sell Model 3s to every resident of California, the rest will gather pace and do to Tesla what Tesla's fans think it's doing to the rest.
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      11-20-2018, 05:51 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The interior is not really any worse than a lower end BMW.
Lower end BMWs have exactly the same quality as the higher ones; it's just that people hit denial when they spend a lot of money on extra buttons.
Quote:
If you don't think that electric is the future for powertrains, you are in complete denial.
It is the future, but it's not today. If I was to buy a BEV now, I would drive it 300 or so miles, and that would be that because I have no way of filling it up. I'm interested in getting in a car and going somewhere today, not in the future. Unless it's a DeLorean.
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Tesla has come this far with no novel battery chemistry. They are already good enough for a lot of people in the US, which means they are more than that for most of Europe.
Except your cars are on average twice the size by overall volume, which is a factor for battery deployment, and more than 80% of you charge them at home. The environment in "Europe" is generally very different.
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Billions and billions of R&D dollars are being spent on batteries and supercapacitors. The next breakthrough will come and it will make ICE passenger cars obsolete.
I am sure, and look forward to what the industry has to offer (not Tesla perhaps, as it won't sell affordable cars anywhere but home) but there is a good decade to go. EVs are great as - literally - a vehicle for the next generation of battery technology and that's a good thing, particularly if they can make and recycle them without using so much energy that actually an ICE car is net more efficient.
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I am an M car fan, but this is undeniable. You might change your story if you've ever driven a car with a good EV powertrain.
I did. It was weird, like sensory deprivation. It would take some getting used to. However, as driving is no longer pleasurable anyway because of the density of traffic, the intense camera scrutiny, the worsening driving standards... perhaps this is no loss. Bring on the appliance!
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      11-20-2018, 06:42 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Trying to turn a platform for an ICE car into an EV is already a failure. The battery placement is absolutely critical. BMW fans like to complain about where Audi puts their engines. This is going to be even worse.
Just wait the final result before jumping to any conclusion
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      11-20-2018, 07:23 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The interior is not really any worse than a lower end BMW.

If you don't think that electric is the future for powertrains, you are in complete denial.

Tesla has come this far with no novel battery chemistry. They are already good enough for a lot of people in the US, which means they are more than that for most of Europe. Billions and billions of R&D dollars are being spent on batteries and supercapacitors. The next breakthrough will come and it will make ICE passenger cars obsolete.

I am an M car fan, but this is undeniable. You might change your story if you've ever driven a car with a good EV powertrain.

If you can't wrap your mind around Tesla, fine, but Porsche will show you the way also.
Dear Sir, I work in the automotive industry and have attended numerous powertrain as well as EV congresses and keynotes from suppliers, manufacturers etc. The current battery technology is not the right solution - but you'll see once you dig deeper.

I had the possibility to drive them all - Model S, X and 3 as well as the BMW hybrids or i3. I think it is something that you can use in the city, because you have the infrastructure and everything else. But please dont tell me that China, India or Brazil will have an infrastructure ready for EV in, lets say 10 years. Even the US is struggling.

I don't know what you want to tell me with "when it is fine for the US, it definitely is for most of Europe" but that's definitely a sentence that only a US citizen can say. As much as I love the US, many people there are diluted. For the most part, the US is no half as much developed as Europe. A country without any regulations for cars NOx or CO2 emissions, neither have something like TÜV (which allows the car every 2 to 3 years to be in good condition to drive on these roads) can't be the standard.

I am excited for the Porsche project. But the car will be so much more advanced from a EV-powertrain perspective than the Tesla, it is even hard to compare.
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      11-20-2018, 09:09 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by eau_rouge View Post
Dear Sir, I work in the automotive industry and have attended numerous powertrain as well as EV congresses and keynotes from suppliers, manufacturers etc. The current battery technology is not the right solution - but you'll see once you dig deeper.

I had the possibility to drive them all - Model S, X and 3 as well as the BMW hybrids or i3. I think it is something that you can use in the city, because you have the infrastructure and everything else. But please dont tell me that China, India or Brazil will have an infrastructure ready for EV in, lets say 10 years. Even the US is struggling.

I don't know what you want to tell me with "when it is fine for the US, it definitely is for most of Europe" but that's definitely a sentence that only a US citizen can say. As much as I love the US, many people there are diluted. For the most part, the US is no half as much developed as Europe. A country without any regulations for cars NOx or CO2 emissions, neither have something like TÜV (which allows the car every 2 to 3 years to be in good condition to drive on these roads) can't be the standard.

I am excited for the Porsche project. But the car will be so much more advanced from a EV-powertrain perspective than the Tesla, it is even hard to compare.

Utility engineer in the US. The grid is most definitely not ready for everyone to get home from work and pug in their cars. No way you can fast charge on a 10 kVA transformer that feeds your house.

I expect more electric (gas) stations to pop up. Which are few and far between in most of the US.

Plus I don't really think it's a fair assumption to say Tesla is more advanced compared to say BMW, Porsche or GM. Sure they've sold EV cars for a while but that alone doesn't make them more advanced. Usually the first companies to bring a innovative product to the market are the ones that figured out how to build it the cheapest. Not necessarily the best.

Look at Rich Rebuild on youtube. How many times has he changed out a motor on a tesla. It's common for telsa models to have bad drive units. Yet I'm supposed to believe Tesla is the best doing it. Doubt it!

How many i3 have had their drive unit replaced. I bet the failure rate is no where near Tesla.

Seems like with a lot of things these days it's all about branding and public perception. Not based on actual products reliability and serviceability. Good luck getting that Model S fixed after a fender bender. It will be months.
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      11-20-2018, 09:13 AM   #42
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I love Bmw's but Tesla is ahead of everyone
Not really.

The Tesla is terrible in cold weather here. People can't even get in their model 3 because of the handles.

The build quality of Tesla is also terrible, 2 years in and the interior is already falling apart.
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      11-20-2018, 09:26 AM   #43
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Not really.

The Tesla is terrible in cold weather here. People can't even get in their model 3 because of the handles.

The build quality of Tesla is also terrible, 2 years in and the interior is already falling apart.
Actually my first year of ownership with the 235i resulted in this during winter.

*The plastic around the handle broke due to freezing temperatures. Cause the handle had frozen and it wouln't open.
*The Windows froze shut due to it being a coupé so it wouldn't go down (had to use a credit card to smoothen up the black plastic around it so it would go down)
*The Boot sensor flipped out completely so it opened the boot mid drive not to fun, happen several times especially when going from warm to cold or cold to a warm car.
*For some reason during winter time the "drivetrain malfunction" would pop up even though i didn't do anything with the car.
*The rear light fixture broke within months after getting the car didn't notice it until winter when damp had gotten in to it and it froze.

So yeah BMW ain't that much of a step up in quality if i may say so my self.
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      11-20-2018, 10:12 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepboy View Post
Are you serious? Why?

Tesla has manufactured and sold tens of thousands of Model 3s and has hundreds of thousands of reservation holders waiting to write them a check as fast as they can build their cars.

Meanwhile, BMW, who is completely lost in this game.

If someone has to watch out, I would say it is BMW...
Why is more i3s sold in Norway than Tesla S?
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